Know Your 'Rafale'

Sancho

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You are surprised?
They purchased 36 OFF THE SHELF !
The ToT about manufacturing will come with the first batch under MII (maybe not the second, more probably the third)
If true, Dassault and Trappier lied when they stated that DRAL will also manufacturer Rafale sub-assemblies. Which means the deal got even worse.

Vishnu Som reports, that DRDO had to choose between Kaveri ToT of Safran, or IRST ToT of Thales and since we know that Kaveri was chosen, that would confirm no IRST for IAF Rafales. Will be interesting to see how that unfolds.
 

Immanuel

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Nope, F 35 is a cash cow. It will suck up all money for future upgrades. Also the EU fucked itself in the ass by allowing immigration crisis to happen. With too many socialist - JNU types in PM,President position defence funding will be cut progressively and some may even be sold second hand to tin pot dictators.

Read the whole book not the foreword.
F-35 and EF will coexist regardless of EU issues, they have a decent order size in Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman. Moreso, than Indian, Egyptian, Qatari orders of Rafale put together. Future upgrades are in no danger, specially when they continue to have orders. Also they have delivered plenty into service, they will all need upgrades during MLU, so no issue there either. Keep in mind the EF is already a much bigger success as per orders than Rafale. Even if all EF customers choose to upgrade half of the total aircraft delivered and mothball the rest due to cost, there will still be more EF requiring upgrades than the Rafale at respective MLU time frames.

Saudi is in talks to order more EFs.

As for the F-35, any respectable nation considering a 4.5 or 5th gen single engine fighter including India, should buy or atleast consider the F-35, it is the only aircraft fit for service for the next couple of decades. There are plenty of F-35 orders and looking at the true cost is easy and in most cases the price and cost is comparable to others such a EF, Rafale etc.

Also before posting non sense about the F-35, best to read-up the Israeli AF's impressions of the jet, having fought and won some serious air battles, this is one AF you can take seriosuly and they love the F-35. Granted the F-35 is still in testing phase and issues remain but by the time of FOC around 2021, most issues would be ironed out.
https://theaviationist.com/2017/12/06/the-israeli-f-35i-adir-declared-operational-so-whats-next/
 
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BON PLAN

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Actually Britain produces the oil it consumes. This makes their economy resilient. If they want, they can produce more of these toys by diverting funds, kicking out immigrants and going to full scale production. Don't forget that UK got orders from Qatar to get EF manufactured.


I was speaking of ToT for rafales. Also, the tweet that Sancho mentioned was about the 36 rafales being bought off the shelf. So, the Kaveri offset was not considered there. Also, what TVC for missiles are you speaking of? Which missile?
Even with oil the GB economy is falling, and the better is to come with Brexit.

***

The Kaveri assistance is part of the offset for Rafale deal, so linked to.
TVC for indian tactical missiles. What kind? I don't know.

There is also a discreet agrement for India to use the Laser Megajoule facilities to test nuclear weapon components.
 

BON PLAN

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Loooool, you wanted a source for the TRM count and now that you can't deny it anymore, you get back in distraction mode. The fact remains, that the radar of the EF is the biggest in the medium class segment and that's why it always will have an advantage there.
And as shown before too, RBE 2 couldn't keep up with APG 80 either.

Radar is not a strong point of the Rafale, it just was good marketing for Dassault, to claim that they were the first to have AESA, but now the rest have it too and that with better performance.
Absolutely not.
I'm answering from my business computer and it blocks some pictures. I only have seen it when opened from my own PC.
1400 T/R modules for EF? why not. But a radar is not only an antenna. It's also a signal treatment and a huge software so as to decrypt and use it.
OK the EF antenna is bigger, it's a fact.
OK Thales has nearly 20 years skill and practice on PESA and AESA airborne radar, it's a fact. How many for Selex ?

As always said :
- APG80 was the reference for UAE.
- First gen RBE2 AESA offered 50% more range over PESA. It was too short for UAE.
- It's why they needed a more powerfull US made T/R modules antenna for Rafale (9.6Kw to 14kw). This only add 10 to 15% more range but was enough for UAE (ie it was matching APG80 range).
- 15% more over 50% more = 72% more range for 1st gen Rafale AESA made of US modules.

Actual RBE2 AESA has 100% more range than PESA.

If you are a little educate, you must know that 100% > 72% => actual RBE2 AESA has more range than APG80, but probably some less modes so far.


The other has AESA too? not in europe yet.
And after introducing it they all will have to work hard on software (see F35 troubles with software) and data base.... good luck. May be something competitiv in 7/8 years....
 

BON PLAN

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Also before posting non sense about the F-35, best to read-up the Israeli AF's impressions of the jet, having fought and won some serious air battles, this is one AF you can take seriosuly and they love the F-35. Granted the F-35 is still in testing phase and issues remain but by the time of FOC around 2021, most issues would be ironed out.
A norvegian pilot said it was a cow. He was not a newbie....

The israeli's F35 are paid by uncle Sam. It's a gift. Do you imagine a country receiving 38 $billion military help on 10 years saying that the gift is not amazing?

stop dreaming. We are speaking of the marketing world master here : Lockeed Martin.

Same for FOC. year after year it slip.
 

Trololo

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If true, Dassault and Trappier lied when they stated that DRAL will also manufacturer Rafale sub-assemblies. Which means the deal got even worse.

Vishnu Som reports, that DRDO had to choose between Kaveri ToT of Safran, or IRST ToT of Thales and since we know that Kaveri was chosen, that would confirm no IRST for IAF Rafales. Will be interesting to see how that unfolds.
So you are saying the Indian Rafales will come without the IRST sensor? If so, how the fuck did IAF accept that?
 

asianobserve

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A norvegian pilot said it was a cow. He was not a newbie....
You mean these statements from a Norwegian test pilot on the F-35?

“Here’s what I’ve learned so far dogfighting in the F-35”: a JSF pilot’s first-hand account

http://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/ka...-35-in-a-dogfight-what-have-i-learned-so-far/
The only negative comment he made about the F-35 was the rearward cockpit view which is obstructed by the headrest. But then ultimately he said after several pratice he has learned to get around it.

The israeli's F35 are paid by uncle Sam. It's a gift. Do you imagine a country receiving 38 $billion military help on 10 years saying that the gift is not amazing?

stop dreaming. We are speaking of the marketing world master here : Lockeed Martin.

Same for FOC. year after year it slip.
The F-15 and F-16s in Israeli Air Force are likewise heavily subsidized by Uncle Sam, but don't tell me Israeli pilots affinity with these jets are merely a feeling of gratitude towards Uncle Sam?

But you know what I think? You;re running out of excuses to defend Rafale which is increasingly becoming irrelevant in the age of 5th Gen fighters. Rafale is like the much lipsticked SU-35, they are nice jets but ultimately no match for F-35 and other 5th gen fighters. And it shows in sales. Rafale is only able to get orders from poorer countries or those countries who otherwise would not be offered the F-35. Heck, even the EF has more orders than Rafale.

Since when did Rafale win against F-35 in orders? In fact, even in Belgium where almost 40% of the population speak French and France has pormised to give it 20Billion Euros in economic offsets Belgium is still enamored with the F-35...
 
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asianobserve

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And need I say that even the Luftwaffe which should know that the German politicians would naturally want the EF due to political and economic reasons are still pushing hard for the F-35?

The Canadian Air Force is also in the same pickle for they want the F-35 while the current politicians has made it toxic by idiotic politicking.

You see, almost all professional and top notch air forces want the F-35 over older jets, including Rafale, only if they can afford it or their politicians will let them have it or only if America will let them buy it...
 
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Kshithij

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And need I say that even the Luftwaffe which should know that the German politicians would naturally want the EF due to political and economic reasons are still pushing hard for the F-35?

The Canadian Air Force is also in the same pickle for they want the F-35 while the current politicians has made it toxic by idiotic politicking.

You see, almost all professional and top notch air forces want the F-35 over older jets, including Rafale, only if they can afford it or their politicians will let them have it or only if America will let them buy it...
Germany is under USA occupation. Germany got rid of USSR but not USA. Same applies to Japan or South Korea. So, Germany politicians are not exactly free.
 

Wisemarko

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https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-alleged-eurofighter-fraud-idUSKBN15V118?il=0

Austria sues Airbus over alleged Eurofighter fraud
VIENNA (Reuters) - Austria sued Airbus (AIR.PA) and the Eurofighter consortium on Thursday, alleging wilful deception and fraud linked to a near 2 billion euro ($2.1 billion) jet order in 2003.

Austria's Defence Minister Hans Peter Doskozil addresses a news conference in Vienna, Austria, February 16, 2017. REUTERS/Heinz-Peter Bader
The defence ministry said that following an investigation it believed Airbus and Eurofighter had misled Austria about the purchase price, deliverability and equipment of the jets.

The incurred damage could amount to 1.1 billion euros, Defence Minister Hans Peter Doskozil told a news conference in Vienna.

Airbus said it denied the accusations vigorously. “The publication of criminal charges against a listed company by means of a press conference ... is not acceptable for Airbus and can only be described as unprofessional,” said a spokesman.

Eurofighter did not reply to requests for comment.

Austrian and German prosecutors have been investigating the case for years and Munich prosecutors have said they expect to complete separate preliminary proceedings by mid-year.

“As defence minister, I consider it my duty to report facts relevant for criminal prosecution and to claim compensation for the Austrian taxpayers’ damage. This is what we did today,” Doskozil said.

Austria had initially ordered 18 Eurofighter jets but reduced the order to 15 in 2007. It then ordered a review of the purchase four years ago following bribery allegations.

The deal was controversial from the outset and allegations surfaced almost immediately that money was pocketed by politicians, civil servants and others via brokers for side deals accompanying the purchase.

ILLEGAL CHARGES
The defence ministry said it had found Airbus and the consortium illegally charged nearly 10 percent of the purchase price of 1.96 billion euros for so-called offset deals.

While such deals, which involve work being given to local companies, were part of the agreement, their cost should have been reported separately, it said in a report.

Offset deals are obviously an ideal launcher for corruption, misery and money laundering,” Doskozil said.

The Eurofighter is built by a consortium comprising Britain’s BAE Systems (BAES.L) and Italy’s Leonardo (LDOF.MI) as well as Airbus, which represents the other two nations in the European project: Germany and Spain.

BAE and Leonardo did not reply to requests for comment.

Airbus and Eurofighter, which coordinates the production of the aircraft and is headquartered in Munich, also deceived Austria about its ability and desire to deliver the planes, the report said, because the deal was not economic for the planemakers.

Wolfgang Peschorn, president of the legal advisor of the Austrian Republic, said the incurred damages of up to 1.1 billion euros related to extra costs paid for the Eurofighters compared with jets from rival bidder SAAB (SAABb.ST), as well as higher operating expenses.

A special committee will examine options for future jet purchases, the defence minister said. The aim was to buy jets more cheaply, though Doskozil did not rule out buying new Eurofighters.

Airbus, Europe’s largest aerospace group, has said it is co-operating with a separate German probe into the fighter sale to Austria, as well as three probes into suspected irregularities in defence or security markets, including a UK investigation into a $3.3 billion communications deal with Saudi Arabia.

I bet Indians were offered bribes for EF and Rafale. Europeans bribe everyone.
 

sthf

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I bet Indians were offered bribes for EF and Rafale. Europeans bribe everyone.
Everybody bribes Indians, be it Europeans, Russians or Americans. That is how things work in India. Because of the wide gulf that exists between the average Indian's perception of the armed forces and the clowns that run the MOD, things are quietly swept under the rug.
 

BON PLAN

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So you are saying the Indian Rafales will come without the IRST sensor? If so, how the fuck did IAF accept that?
A new high level enginneer job was created in Thales, specially dedicated to that.
So don't worry.
 

BON PLAN

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You mean these statements from a Norwegian test pilot on the F-35?



The only negative comment he made about the F-35 was the rearward cockpit view which is obstructed by the headrest. But then ultimately he said after several pratice he has learned to get around it.



The F-15 and F-16s in Israeli Air Force are likewise heavily subsidized by Uncle Sam, but don't tell me Israeli pilots affinity with these jets are merely a feeling of gratitude towards Uncle Sam?

But you know what I think? You;re running out of excuses to defend Rafale which is increasingly becoming irrelevant in the age of 5th Gen fighters. Rafale is like the much lipsticked SU-35, they are nice jets but ultimately no match for F-35 and other 5th gen fighters. And it shows in sales. Rafale is only able to get orders from poorer countries or those countries who otherwise would not be offered the F-35. Heck, even the EF has more orders than Rafale.

Since when did Rafale win against F-35 in orders? In fact, even in Belgium where almost 40% of the population speak French and France has pormised to give it 20Billion Euros in economic offsets Belgium is still enamored with the F-35...
No, it's not that interview.

F16 and F15 effectiveness is one (good) thing, those of the flying cow F35 another one.
It is politically right to say only good things about a plane your country has purchased.

Rafale irrelevant ? 5 Gen? You are so blind that you don't even understand 5 th gen is a marketing floating definition by LM.
Why floating? because at the beginning (F22 area), 5th gen attributes were : stealth, supercruise, data fusion, super agility. F35 only reach 2 of them (stealth, data fusion). It is not a supercruiser (maybe with the next engine), and is less agile than F16, largely beaten by a F16D with 2 belly tanks !

Export orders of rafale : 96 so far. Production made by just one country. Just wait for the next indian orders....
Export orders of EF : slightly more, but divided by 4 !

Poorer country : I think Qatar will appreciate.

Last competition between F35 and Rafale : Netherlands
A paper F35 (ie with supercruise and F16 agility) with by 0,02/10 against Rafale without AESA.
Since, F35 showed it was less agile than F16, not supercruising. Rafale since has an AESA radar and will received this year Meteor.

I have fogotten one thing : F35 should be afforable. :pound:
 

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BON PLAN

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And need I say that even the Luftwaffe which should know that the German politicians would naturally want the EF due to political and economic reasons are still pushing hard for the F-35?

The Canadian Air Force is also in the same pickle for they want the F-35 while the current politicians has made it toxic by idiotic politicking.

You see, almost all professional and top notch air forces want the F-35 over older jets, including Rafale, only if they can afford it or their politicians will let them have it or only if America will let them buy it...
Why do they all want F35? just because it's the US futur main plane, so as to be automatically integrated in a coalition.
They just all forgot one thing : US has a F22 fleet, so as to protect the F35 ass. All the others not.

F35 is nice as a communication node. Rafale F4 will match it.
 

BON PLAN

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Dogfighting and the F-35

Recently I have been working on a post on the F-35 and «dogfighting» and after new allegations have surfaced concering the effectiveness of the F-35 in this area (or lack of such) it becomes even more relevant. In this post I will therefore try to elaborate a bit more on air-to-air combat and which factors help determine its outcome.

A dogfight is combat in the air between two aircraft where the distance is short enough that the pilots are able to see each other with their own eyes. When training for this kind of combat, we call it «Basic Fighter Maneuvers» (BFM). Before the days of missiles and radars, dogfighting was the only form of air combat, and machine guns (or cannons) were the only weapons. This changed rapidly during the 1960s, but it turned out that early missiles were unreliable. Machine guns and «dogfights» were therefore still relevant in both the Vietnam and Yom Kippur wars.

The F-16 was also immature in many ways when the Norwegian Air Force received them during the 1980s. The radar was «shortsighted», and the only armament were guns and short ranged heat-seeking missiles. During the 1980s, Norwegian pilots trained to meet Soviet aircraft with long-range missiles. The Norwegian pilots could certainly hope that the Soviet missiles would not work, but it would be foolish to rely on such an assumption. As a result, Norwegian F-16s would go defensively into any dogfight, with the aim of surviving the initial long range fire of their opponent, before being able to hopefully retaliate once the battle moved within visual range. To do so, the only thing our F-16s could do was to try to confuse the enemy with deceptive maneuvers; perhaps this would allow at least one of our aircraft to survive all the way to a merge and hence have an opportunity to catch up? The problem was that such diversionary maneuvers tended to confuse both parties. Therefore, the starting point for the ensuing dogfight was poor.

With the F-35 however the situation is quite different. Today’s missiles are far more reliable and the sensors are in a completely different league. I know that the F-35 will perform formidably at long range, but it is not my intention in this post to discuss whether dogfighting is relevant or not for the F-35. There are several reasons why the F-35 could end up in a dogfight. After all, when all the missiles are gone the gun is the only option that we are left with. Or what if we meet an opponent with an even smaller radar signature? Or an opponent that is able to evade all our missiles, in one way or another? My focus in this post is therefore the factors that help determine the outcome of a dogfight.

The performance of the airplane is important. The most relevant factors are how small I can make my turn radius, how quickly I can turn the aircraft around and how quickly the airplane can accelerate and gain speed. But let’s say that I am training BFM in «my» F-16 against a SAAB Safari (basic trainer) from the pilot training school at Bardufoss. Would this be an easy match? As it happens, the Safari is actually better than the F-16 in two relevant areas; it has a smaller turning radius and can fly slower. As a consequence, I will lose if I enter the fight on the Safari’s terms, and try to win by «out-turning» my opponent (just ignore for the moment that the Safari is completely unarmed).

The relevance is that although the F-16 is an agile airplane, I cannot beat neither the SAAB Safari nor any other combat aircraft without having a good plan for doing so. In a dogfight between an F-16 and a SAAB Safari I will have other strenghts; I can find the Safari on my radar and enter the fight unseen, I can sustain five times the speed of the Safari and I can fly higher.

So what would I actually have done in a theoretical dogfight like this one?

I would have done anything I could to sneak in undiscovered; plunge down on the Safari from an almost vertical position, slightly behind. The Safari-pilot wouldn´t have had any realistic chance to see me before the attack was over. If I had missed with the first volley from my cannon, the plan would have been to «escape» vertically upward again, and repeat the attack. This is not something the Safari would be able to match. I would be fighting the Safari on my own terms.

So how does this apply in the case of an engagement between the F-16 and the F-35? It depends, and it particularly depends on how the F-16 is loaded. A stripped-down F-16 is a formidable opponent to anyone in BFM. However, this changes quickly when we dress the F-16 up for combat. If we are to compare the F-16 and F-35 on an equal basis, we must assume that the F-16 will be carrying both external fuel, a «jamming pod» for electronic warfare, weapon mounts for bombs, missiles and a camera pod for target acquisition and illumination. With this loadout, the F-16´s performance is significantly reduced: The maximum angle of attack is reduced by 40% (the ability to move the nose away from the direction of travel), the roll rate is lowered, the maximum allowable airspeed is reduced and the g-limitations are stricter.

So what, you might ask? My point is that a that a well thought-out plan is essential. I need to know the strengths and weaknesses of both my own airplane and that of my opponent. Even with a superior and modern fighter I must utilize my own strengths and not let my opponent dictate the terms of the fight.

Overall I can say that a stripped-down F-16 has slightly better sustained turn rate than the F-35. However, an F-35 has the advantage with regards to getting inside the turn of its opponent. In a dogfight between the F-16 and the F-35 they will therefore both have strengths to play on.

When we train BFM in Norway – F-16 against F-16 – it is often the case that one of the two plays the role of the opponent. When an instructor acts as the opponent to an inexperienced pilot, the instructor commonly refrains from using the afterburner. Compared to the instructor, the student pilot has 60% more engine power available – a «twin engined» F-16! Still, the student pilot does not always win, despite superior power and performance.

Another common scenario is to train from a defensive starting point. At exercise start, the ‘aggressor’ will usually be 3,000 ft behind, in a lazy turn. In this situation, the aggressor has every advantage. With a skilled pilot, the defending aircraft should not be able to survive an attack from such a short distance. Nevertheless, it still happens that the roles are switched, and the hunted becomes the hunter. My main thesis is therefore hardly controversial; the pilot who trains consistently and builds experience – the pilot with a large «bag of tricks» – will win!

How I end up in a dogfight is also a critical factor. Just earlier today I was lucky enough to be able to practice three BFM sets in the F-16. Two defensive sets, and one «high aspect» set. Before we took off, we went through the initial parameters, our roles, safety rules and objectives for the exercise. The world was simple; two fighters in the training area and one mission to complete. I was 100% ready to defend myself in the best way possible when my colleague called «fight’s on» over the radio. When we run larger and more realistic scenarios, however, my experience is that the path leading up to a BFM-engagement tends to be both confusing and chaotic. If we are in control, know what we are doing and interpret the tactical situation correctly, we will not end up in a dogfight. When we do end up in a dogfight anyway, it tends to be both unexpected and inconvenient.

The first hint of an unseen foe could be cannon rounds slamming into the hull. That rarely ends well. Fortunately, the F-35 is tricky to spot and has very good sensors. It’s hard to sneak up on an F-35 without being detected. I think it is unlikely that I will be caught completely off guard in the F-35. I my opinion, the most likely scenarios for an F-35 to end up in a dogfight is that an opponent somehow has evaded its missiles, or that all missiles are spent. Therefore, I believe that the F-35 will be the one to enter the arena with the best situational awareness. Having an overview of the situation will allow me to plan my attack; I can prepare myself mentally for what will happen, I can minimize my signature, maybe try to sneak up on my opponent from a dead angle. I can adjust my speed, height and geometry, I can dump heavy weapons to make the aircraft more maneuverable, and I can prepare my desired weapon and optimize the sensors as I approach the merge. I would therefore argue that the situational awareness of a well-trained pilot is the strongest factor when it comes to winning a dogfight.

Kampflybloggen (The Combat Aircraft Blog) is the official blog of the Norwegian F-35 Program Office within the Norwegian Ministry of Defence. The author of this piece, Captain Morten Hanche, is a F-16-pilot with the Royal Norwegian Air Force, and has been picked to lead Norwegian Operational Testing & Evaluation of the F-35.
 

undeadmyrmidon

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F-35 and EF will coexist regardless of EU issues, they have a decent order size in Saudi, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman. Moreso, than Indian, Egyptian, Qatari orders of Rafale put together. Future upgrades are in no danger, specially when they continue to have orders. Also they have delivered plenty into service, they will all need upgrades during MLU, so no issue there either. Keep in mind the EF is already a much bigger success as per orders than Rafale. Even if all EF customers choose to upgrade half of the total aircraft delivered and mothball the rest due to cost, there will still be more EF requiring upgrades than the Rafale at respective MLU time frames.

Saudi is in talks to order more EFs.

As for the F-35, any respectable nation considering a 4.5 or 5th gen single engine fighter including India, should buy or atleast consider the F-35, it is the only aircraft fit for service for the next couple of decades. There are plenty of F-35 orders and looking at the true cost is easy and in most cases the price and cost is comparable to others such a EF, Rafale etc.

Also before posting non sense about the F-35, best to read-up the Israeli AF's impressions of the jet, having fought and won some serious air battles, this is one AF you can take seriosuly and they love the F-35. Granted the F-35 is still in testing phase and issues remain but by the time of FOC around 2021, most issues would be ironed out.
https://theaviationist.com/2017/12/06/the-israeli-f-35i-adir-declared-operational-so-whats-next/
F 35 is what happens when an F 22, F 15SE, F 16 BLK 60+, Harrier, F 18 SH all have a gangbang and the F 16 becomes pregnant with triplets (F 35 A/B/C). The F 35A is an F 18 SH with much greater acceleration and slow maneuvering capabilities like an SU 30M (Not TVC). But F 35B is an F 18 SH with sluggish harrier characteristics and F 35C is a bomb truck with great slow maneuvering capabilities due to larger wings but lower acceleration than either sibling. F 22 parentage is where money goes for all the bells and whistles which will drain massive amounts of money.

In tomorrow's world you will be facing S 300, S 400, S 500 which will make an air operation like 'thud ridge' in Vietnam War. Thus discretion is the better part of valor. Rafale RBE 2 radar on it's own is comparable to APG 80 but when coupled with SPECTRA ensures maximum survivability. EF has no similar system but Captor E with it's radar will be good only for A2A missions. Aerodynamically both are very similar. IRST on Rafale is only better than EF's and IR signature on Rafale is lower.

https://defenseissues.net/2015/11/01/dassault-rafale-vs-eurofighter-typhoon/

Basically it's like whoever switches on radar in a contested zone first is dead. Passive capabilities are what will ensure you go home. EF is not being bought by home users which means that further upgrades in this area are lacking pending a Middle East country's massive funding. EF is like the F 14 of our time. Guess who has the
S 400 and an upcoming 5th generation strike fighter in our neighborhood.

Hint: It has a red flag and likes to be overtly aggressive.
 

BON PLAN

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Nice and interesting picture
F35 must keep a higher AoA to stay in formation with old brother F16.
And what about aerodynamic shape. The older is smooth, the younger is more like a piece of sugar.
 

undeadmyrmidon

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No, it's not that interview.

F16 and F15 effectiveness is one (good) thing, those of the flying cow F35 another one.
It is politically right to say only good things about a plane your country has purchased.

Rafale irrelevant ? 5 Gen? You are so blind that you don't even understand 5 th gen is a marketing floating definition by LM.
Why floating? because at the beginning (F22 area), 5th gen attributes were : stealth, supercruise, data fusion, super agility. F35 only reach 2 of them (stealth, data fusion). It is not a supercruiser (maybe with the next engine), and is less agile than F16, largely beaten by a F16D with 2 belly tanks !

Export orders of rafale : 96 so far. Production made by just one country. Just wait for the next indian orders....
Export orders of EF : slightly more, but divided by 4 !

Poorer country : I think Qatar will appreciate.

Last competition between F35 and Rafale : Netherlands
A paper F35 (ie with supercruise and F16 agility) with by 0,02/10 against Rafale without AESA.
Since, F35 showed it was less agile than F16, not supercruising. Rafale since has an AESA radar and will received this year Meteor.

I have fogotten one thing : F35 should be afforable. :pound:
F 35 is a supercruise aircraft. Around M 1.2 with a full belly.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=21348

But EF is not affordable as India will have to shoulder entire cost for R&D.
 

undeadmyrmidon

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Nice and interesting picture
F35 must keep a higher AoA to stay in formation with old brother F16.
And what about aerodynamic shape. The older is smooth, the younger is more like a piece of sugar.
It can still outmaneuver the F 16 at slow speed and acceleration.
 

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