Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Belgian evaluation of the unit cost of aircraft to replace the F-16 .

 

[BON PLAN]

F 35 is a supercruise aircraft. Around M 1.2 with a full belly.

http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=21348

But EF is not affordable as India will have to shoulder entire cost for R&D.

- F35 super cruise only on a slight descent, and only for short time.
- LM supercruise definition is "over Mach 1.5 without reheat"

another explanation of the moving 5th gen definition by LM....

 

[BON PLAN]

It can still outmaneuver the F 16 at slow speed and acceleration.

Absolutely not.
Acceleration : probably.
Agility : It was heavily beaten by a dual seat block 40 F16 equipped with 2 external tanks !

During the last Le Bourget show, a famous french test pilot, Guy Mitaux Maurouard, said that the F35 moved like a Mirage F1 ! a plane not agile as a M2000 or a F16.

 

[BON PLAN]

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[asianobserve]

Absolutely not.
Acceleration : probably.
Agility : It was heavily beaten by a dual seat block 40 F16 equipped with 2 external tanks !

During the last Le Bourget show, a famous french test pilot, Guy Mitaux Maurouard, said that the F35 moved like a Mirage F1 ! a plane not agile as a M2000 or a F16.

The desperate guy at it again. You just quoted a Norwegian AF pilot who actually flew both F16 and F35. Besides, you know that that story about F35 being beaten by an F16B was taken out of context. It was not a mock dogfight but a testing on AOA of early production F35.

 

[asianobserve]

- F35 super cruise only on a slight descent, and only for short time.
- LM supercruise definition is "over Mach 1.5 without reheat"

another explanation of the moving 5th gen definition by LM....

But at least you admit that the F35 can supercruise. So that completes F35's compliance with the requirements for a 5th gen fighter.

 

[BON PLAN]

The desperate guy at it again. You just quoted a Norwegian AF pilot who actually flew both F16 and F35. Besides, you know that that story about F35 being beaten by an F16B was taken out of context. It was not a mock dogfight but a testing on AOA of early production F35.

Are you so stupid?
You think you need another plane to test AoA ? No. The test between F16 and F35 was to check the WVR ability of the second against a plane than remain a reference.

Why do you think F22 received TVC and AIM9X ? to be able to win in a WVR combat.

Why do you think agility on par with F16 one was one of the goal of F35? (as stealth : OK, fusion sensos : OK or near, supercruise : NO, affordability : NO). For the same reason.
But now that agility is definitively out of range, suddenly LM only speak of long range shoot. You are among the ones than are not surprised....

AoA : my picture with 2 F16 and a F35 is very clear : to sustain the same small speed, F35 need a higher AoA: it lacks its energy and when a F16 reach 25°, F35 will stall.

 

[BON PLAN]

But at least you admit that the F35 can supercruise. So that completes F35's compliance with the requirements for a 5th gen fighter.

Read again the own LM supercruise definition : over mach 1.5 without AB. so NO.

take a Mirage 2000, in a slight descent it can also reach mach 1.2. But it's not a supercruise fighter.

 

[asianobserve]

Read again the own LM supercruise definition : over mach 1.5 without AB. so NO.

take a Mirage 2000, in a slight descent it can also reach mach 1.2. But it's not a supercruise fighter.

A combat loaded Mirage or even Rafale cannot supercruise while a combat loaded F35 can supercruise even at only Mach 1.4.

 

[asianobserve]

Are you so stupid?
You think you need another plane to test AoA ? No. The test between F16 and F35 was to check the WVR ability of the second against a plane than remain a reference.

Why do you think F22 received TVC and AIM9X ? to be able to win in a WVR combat.

Why do you think agility on par with F16 one was one of the goal of F35? (as stealth : OK, fusion sensos : OK or near, supercruise : NO, affordability : NO). For the same reason.
But now that agility is definitively out of range, suddenly LM only speak of long range shoot. You are among the ones than are not surprised....

AoA : my picture with 2 F16 and a F35 is very clear : to sustain the same small speed, F35 need a higher AoA: it lacks its energy and when a F16 reach 25°, F35 will stall.

Get over it man. It was not a real mock dogfight that the early production F35 was engaged at. It was part of the ongoing tests on the F35 which at the time was restricted in flight envelop.

Since then, with newer production aircrafts, updated software and better trained (in the F35) pilots the F35 is the second best fighter out there after the F22.

The recent record of the more recent F35As will speak for itself, 17-1 record in Red Flag; 8-0 versus F15s; and 20-0 record by F35B. Mind you this record is achieved without the 3f software yet.

So your Rafale, as I said it's only good for Air Forces who cannot afford to buy and operate F35s; or those air forces of countries whose politicians are the ones making the military decisions; or those air forces which America will not sell its F35 to, even if they can afford it. Just look at the record of sales of Rafale whenever it goes up against the F35, embarassing.

So you want to compare Egyptian Air Force with RNAF? RAF? RAAF? Even Belgium favors F35... You're over your head man.

 

[Armand2REP]

Since then, with newer production aircrafts, updated software and better trained (in the F35) pilots the F35 is the second best fighter out there after the F22.

End of that debate.......

 

[Sancho]

OK the EF antenna is bigger, it's a fact.
OK Thales has nearly 20 years skill and practice on PESA and AESA airborne radar, it's a fact. How many for Selex ?

At least you finally admit it, even if add another excuse at the end.

 

[Sancho]

So you are saying the Indian Rafales will come without the IRST sensor? If so, how the fuck did IAF accept that?

The only way for IRST was either to get ToT of the old one and produce it in India, or to team up for the upgraded FSO NG. If Vishnu Som is right (although he was not fully sure with his statements), DRDO had the choice between M88 know how for Kaveri or IRST know how. We will send it next year if they will have it or not and if we have to wait till 2025.

 

[Sancho]

You see, almost all professional and top notch air forces want the F-35 over older jets,

Because it's he only stealth fighter abailable for export so far, not because it's a good fighter. UK, Japan, Israel wanted F22s instead, Japan is developing their own fighter, just as S. Korea or Turkey as well. So the advantage of F35 is stealth and the current monopoly on the market.

It's also not true that air forces prefer it over 4.5th gen fighters, but that they aim on interoperability between stealth aircrafts and non stealth once. The same therefore can be achieved by the combination of a stealth UCAV with passive sensors and strike capabilities, in combination with EF, Rafale and Gripen. See the reports on the Trident exercise last year, when F22, F35, EF and Rafale trained with each other to maximise benefits of 5th and 4.5th gen fighters.

 

[BON PLAN]

A combat loaded Mirage or even Rafale cannot supercruise while a combat loaded F35 can supercruise even at only Mach 1.4.

Rafale M, with 6 MICA can supercruise up to Mach 1.4

F35, as said by yourself just few posts before, can only reach Mach 1.2 on a slighltly descent....

 

[BON PLAN]

Get over it man. It was not a real mock dogfight that the early production F35 was engaged at. It was part of the ongoing tests on the F35 which at the time was restricted in flight envelop.

Since then, with newer production aircrafts, updated software and better trained (in the F35) pilots the F35 is the second best fighter out there after the F22.

The recent record of the more recent F35As will speak for itself, 17-1 record in Red Flag; 8-0 versus F15s; and 20-0 record by F35B. Mind you this record is achieved without the 3f software yet.

So your Rafale, as I said it's only good for Air Forces who cannot afford to buy and operate F35s; or those air forces of countries whose politicians are the ones making the military decisions; or those air forces which America will not sell its F35 to, even if they can afford it. Just look at the record of sales of Rafale whenever it goes up against the F35, embarassing.

So you want to compare Egyptian Air Force with RNAF? RAF? RAAF? Even Belgium favors F35... You're over your head man.

F35 with a limited flight envelop nearly 10 years after the beginning of the programm and a prototyp before? DO YOU STILL BELIEVE IN SANTA CLAUS ?
The flight envelop is the first thing cleared, before (new) engine, weapon system....

F35 second to F22? If I agree F22 is the king of the air, F35 is an ATTACK fighter. It's not because it has an AESA radar and some air to air missile that it's a game changer.

Record in red flag or other : WE NEVER HAD THE ENGAGEMENT RULES. Too easy ! First time a Mirage 2000-5 with MICA train against F16 and F15, the score was 40-0. We can't say now that M2000-5 is so unbeatable.

The real export career of the Rafale begun two years ago...

Australia, GB, Canada, New Zealand are quite others US states ! they all sucks uncle Sam dick.
Belgium? Let's spend some time.... a big surprise is very possible

 

[BON PLAN]

At least you finally admit it, even if add another excuse at the end.

The antenna size is well known.
But it's like in love : size don't make all. Ask your wife : the real way is how you use it. And youg, strong and pretty boy Thales knows it with 20 years of practice against the baby Selex.

 

[BON PLAN]

The only way for IRST was either to get ToT of the old one and produce it in India, or to team up for the upgraded FSO NG. If Vishnu Som is right (although he was not fully sure with his statements), DRDO had the choice between M88 know how for Kaveri or IRST know how. We will send it next year if they will have it or not and if we have to wait till 2025.

I think your are wrong.
Thales works on a new IRST, with a dedicated job open last year (can't find soon the french link).

 

[asianobserve]

Because it's he only stealth fighter abailable for export so far, not because it's a good fighter. UK, Japan, Israel wanted F22s instead, Japan is developing their own fighter, just as S. Korea or Turkey as well. So the advantage of F35 is stealth and the current monopoly on the market.

You're not making sense my friend. If the F35 is as you say not a good fighter then why has it won in all the successful tender it participated in? Second, why would you buy a fighter that is "not good" just because it has stealth when there are other "good" fighters (meaning better than F35) out there despite being non-stealthy? It's absurd.

It's also not true that air forces prefer it over 4.5th gen fighters, but that they aim on interoperability between stealth aircrafts and non stealth once. The same therefore can be achieved by the combination of a stealth UCAV with passive sensors and strike capabilities, in combination with EF, Rafale and Gripen. See the reports on the Trident exercise last year, when F22, F35, EF and Rafale trained with each other to maximise benefits of 5th and 4.5th gen fighters.

If interoperability is their only purpose in buying F35 then that's idiotic to actually buy it (as you say it's not good anyway). The RAF, Italian Air Force, USAF, USN, USMC and othet F-35 operators are already integrating F35 with their legacy fighters such as EF, F16s, F15s. NATO countries especially like the Dutch, Brits and Australians can always integrate whatever fighters they have with the F35 of the Americans since every war that these countries will participate in will invariably involve the Americans.

 

[asianobserve]

End of that debate.......

Ha! that one-sided video! You must be dreaming. We have a term for it --- OVER ADVERTISEMENT: you advertise something beyond the quality of the product. Only children will believe it.

Perhaps France can increase the economic carrots to Belgium to 100 Billion Euros. That might make them change their mind about Rafale...