Know Your 'Rafale'

Kshithij

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Sir, you are right.

But in the case of Rafale, do you think Kangla Bhai (Bankrupt) Anil Dhiru Bhai Ambani, who tied up with Desault to manufacture Rafale in India have deep pockets to fund BJP???

It was Modi who put his foot down, in Rafale deal, because the cost was shooting the roof. It was badly conceived deal, with hidden costs.
Parrikar was the most efficient DM of India till date. He not only made intelligent deals and gave excellent advice to Modi in defence manufacturing but also set the course of India for full indigenisation till 2024. Projects like Kaveri, Tejas, AMCA and other high investments based research got heavy funds and assured stable support from government.

Parrikar was not a dummy that needed Modi to tell him what to do. There was a reason Modi made Parrikar resign from being CM of Goa. Parrikar didn't want to become defence minister but was pressured into doing so.
 

TPFscopes

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Does not matter who has written The Script(again) what matters is Tejas is not going Marut's way without putting up a bloody fight. By which I mean without making its opponents lose their Chaddi out in public.

Today in the era of social media the mainstream media is already losing its ability to influence and manipulate people. Little people buy when someone says all being done for national security. So no, no no no no no. You can not sell the blatant lie that you need Gripen E as SEF because Tejas is incapable. We will ask why not develop Tejas MK-2 based on Naval model if you are trying to reach the level of Gripen E?

You may be men in XYZ. But do mind we no more Bloody (+ignorant+) civilians.
And who is "you" in this? :confused1:
 

Kay

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Sir, you are right.

But in the case of Rafale, do you think Kangla Bhai (Bankrupt) Anil Dhiru Bhai Ambani, who tied up with Desault to manufacture Rafale in India have deep pockets to fund BJP???

It was Modi who put his foot down, in Rafale deal, because the cost was shooting the roof. It was badly conceived deal, with hidden costs.
I think it was Dassault who came up with the idea to team up with Reliance owing to their proximity to power. This way they could avoid ToT to HAL and India. Reliance was happy to go with it as they will only benefit by making money by screw drivergiri. I don't think money was paid, but BJP went with it because of their electoral political contributions and good will.
Modi had to make a compromised decision as indecision and inaction were hampering the government's image. So it was a mix of many factors.
 

Kshithij

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I think it was Dassault who came up with the idea to team up with Reliance owing to their proximity to power. This way they could avoid ToT to HAL and India. Reliance was happy to go with it as they will only benefit by making money by screw drivergiri. I don't think money was paid, but BJP went with it because of their electoral political contributions and good will.
Modi had to make a compromised decision as indecision and inaction were hampering the government's image. So it was a mix of many factors.
Anil Ambani had openly campaigned for BJP in 2012 Gujarat elections. Modi will not forget that.

Also, private sector in defence can be developed only by these tactics. HAL can't cater to all the needs due to several red tapes, unions and government rules which are archaic but sensitive and hence can't meet all needs. Also, election funds are needed for today's chaotic nonsense called REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY which is better earned through private sector than imports
 

TPFscopes

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Congress has never done anything good for the nation.

But, in ignorance, while trying to corner Modi they are doing something good by questioning Rafale Deal.

They are trending #RakshaMantriJawabDo


Let them question every Foreign Defense Deal. It will force GOI and MOD think twice before considering any Foreign Defense Deal, where indigenous alternate is available.

Congress must also question every deal where there is an "Made in India" product is available.

This may prove good for indigenous products and projects.
Intentionally blind persons like Pappu Gandhi conveniently skipped that Reliance was the proposed Tier-1 supplier for license production at HAL. That Reliance was also have 0% Defence manufacturing experience.
But right now, after takeover of Pipavav Shipbuilding, Reliance earned a lot of Defence experience and it is still rising.

Good to share the pappu's tweet.

Right Now, I have unconfirmed update that Dassault proposed a plan for MK1A/MK2. Will share the confirmation by tomorrow evening...
If this becomes true than DRAL will share its fruits with LCA.
 

Kay

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Parrikar was the most efficient DM of India till date. He not only made intelligent deals and gave excellent advice to Modi in defence manufacturing but also set the course of India for full indigenisation till 2024. Projects like Kaveri, Tejas, AMCA and other high investments based research got heavy funds and assured stable support from government.

Parrikar was not a dummy that needed Modi to tell him what to do. There was a reason Modi made Parrikar resign from being CM of Goa. Parrikar didn't want to become defence minister but was pressured into doing so.
Parrikar is the best DM we had. Modi is probably the best PM we have. But there is a difference in their worldviews.
Modi believes world power comes from economic progress and wealth.
Parrikar believes both wealth and knowledge are needed.
That is why Modi is happy with a "Make in India" which brings jobs and prosperity.
Parrikar it seems would favour a "Made in India" and would prioritize knowledge attainment along with economic prosperity.
I belong to the camp who believe both are equally needed - you need both Lakshmi and Saraswati.
 

Kay

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Anil Ambani had openly campaigned for BJP in 2012 Gujarat elections. Modi will not forget that.

Also, private sector in defence can be developed only by these tactics. HAL can't cater to all the needs due to several red tapes, unions and government rules which are archaic but sensitive and hence can't meet all needs. Also, election funds are needed for today's chaotic nonsense called REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY which is better earned through private sector than imports
HAL has problems. But it is possible to grow private sector by working more with HAL and gradually acquiring more work share. Right now they are not in a position to dictate terms to Dassault and is the weaker partner. They cannot force Dassault to transfer any technology and may not feel any compulsion to do so.
We will end up in a Brahmos or Barak-8 like scenario - even after so many years of manufacturing, we still don't have engine tech of Brahmos. In case of Barak-8, we don't have seeker technology.

Regarding elections, more corporate money only ensures more corporate interests are protected.
 

Bhoot Pishach

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I think it was Dassault who came up with the idea to team up with Reliance owing to their proximity to power. This way they could avoid ToT to HAL and India. Reliance was happy to go with it as they will only benefit by making money by screw drivergiri. I don't think money was paid, but BJP went with it because of their electoral political contributions and good will.
Modi had to make a compromised decision as indecision and inaction were hampering the government's image. So it was a mix of many factors.
May this will clear all your doubts.

Mind you this is from the Defense analyst and Journalist Mr. Nitin Gokhle who was most close to Mr. Parrikar.

https://nitinagokhale.blogspot.in/2017/11/the-tortuous-mmrca-saga-part-i.html

Saturday, November 18, 2017
THE TORTUOUS MMRCA SAGA: Part I

More than a year after the government signed the deal to buy 36 Rafale combat jets in September 2016, the contract is back in the news again, thanks to the allegations by the Opposition Congress that the government did not follow rules and procedures and that it overpaid for the fighters. The allegations have been denied by the government and rightly so. To begin with the previous UPA government had not finalised the price of the contract. So comparison of cost is incorrect. But there is more. the Mod under then Defence Minister AK Antony had convoluted the process to an extent where it had become impossible to go through with the deal in its original format. I have detailed the decade-long journey of what was once described as 'mother of all deals,' in my bookSecuring India The Modi way: Pathankot, Surgical Strikes and more.Here are the excerpts, in two parts which sheds light on whatexactly happened in the Rafale deal.

The competition to acquire 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) for the Indian Air Force began in 2007 after the government agreed with the IAF that it needed to replace the aging fleet of MiG aircraft.

Six companies across the world were issued the tender papers. They were: EADS from Germany, manufacturers of the Eurofighter Typhoon; Lockheed Martin (who make the F-16s) and Boeing ((F-18 aircraft) from the USA, Sweden’s SAAB (makers of Gripen); Dassualt Aviation from France (the Rafale manufacturers) and Russia’s RosoboronExport (MiG-35).
India was looking for 18 aircraft to be bought off the shelf and 108 were to be manufactured in India (with a local partner, in this case, it was supposed to be the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd). Required maintenance, repair and overhaul facilities were to be set up. The MMRCA contract was variously described as ‘mother of all deals,’ ‘most complex defence contract,’ etc in the media reports. And it indeed was.

According to official documents that I have had a chance to read, the MoD had in 2011, bench marked the Total Cost of Acquisition at Rs 163,403 crores. This, it must be pointed out, was different from the total cost of deliverables in the 126 MMRCA contract, which was bench marked by the MoD at Rs 69,456 crores, excluding the offset loading cost, estimated to be anywhere between Rs 2530 crores to Rs 5060 crores.

All this came after the six companies submitted their techno-commercial bids in April 2008, followed by nearly 11 months of field evaluation trial (FET) held in the heat of Rajasthan desert during peak summer months and extreme cold conditions in the high altitude zone of Ladakh. The trials were completed in May 2010. The evaluation committee of the IAF shortlisted two aircraft—the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale aircraft fielded by the Dassault Aviation (DA)—and forwarded the recommendation to Defence Minister AK Antony. Antony took almost a year to accept the recommendation. It was already 2011. After prolonged internal discussions in two sub-committees (the Technical Oversight Committee-TOC, the Technical Offset Evaluation Committee-TOEC), a Contract Negotiations Committee (CNC) was formed in April 2011. By September that year, the CNC had arrived at the benchmarking cost after applying escalation rates by averaging simple year-on-year escalation.

But it was not beforeJuly 2012, that the CNC activated four Sub-Committees, the 'Maintenance', `Offset', and `ToT and `Contract' Sub-Committees.

For the next two years, negotiations on Transfer of Technology, Offset and Maintenance went on apace. However, certain aspects related to License Manufacture of 108 aircraft in India with HAL as the lead production agency could not be finalized. Major differences occurred on the aspect of Man Hours that would be required to produce the aircraft from kits in India and who would take the responsibility for entire lot of 126 aircraft. While DA maintained that 31 Million Man Hours that it has proposed should be sufficient to produce 108 Rafale aircraft in India, HAL was asking for mark up of this Man Hours by 2.7 times.
This point became the bone of contention between the government and the French manufacturer.

Moreover, in the understanding of the MoD, the company that had emerged as the winner in the bid—Dassault Aviation—would have to sign a single contract with the Indian government. The French Company would then need to have back to back contract(s) with HAL and other Indian Production Agencies. Dassault Aviation would also be responsible for the delivery of the complete 126 aircraft to IAF and the single point responsibility for this contract rested with Dassault Aviation because the RFP was issued to them. At that stage, the representatives of Dassault Aviation agreed do their best to meet all requirements of the project as envisaged in the RFP.

However, Dassault Aviation did not fulfil the commitment given in the first meeting and an impasse ensued on the responsibility of delivery of 108 aircraft to be manufactured in India. Another hurdle came up on the point of work share of HAL. Dassault Aviation was asked to submit a 'Responsibility Matrix', clearly defining the role and responsibility of Dassault Aviation and HAL. The `Responsibility Matrix' was to facilitate a back to back contract of Dassault Aviation with HAL. The CNC was however not able to move the negotiations forward since the interpretation of two fundamental aspects of the case by the French Company was not in line with the terms of the original terms in the tender.

The first aspect related to treating Dassault Aviation as the 'Seller' of 126 aircraft, including 108 to be manufactured in India and the corresponding contractual obligations and liabilities. The second point was about the ‘man hours for the aircraft to be manufactured in India. The UPA government, under the overly cautious AK Antony instead of imposing a deadline for the French manufacturer to comply with the terms of the RFP, dragged its feet and allowed Dassault Aviation to get away with obfuscation. Moreover, in an unusual move, Antony instructed MoD officials to bring the file back to him after concluding the CNC to re-examine the integrity of the process before proceeding to finalise the contract, creating confusion and doubt in the minds of the officials who were negotiating with the manufacturer.
Even as talks got deadlocked, the government changed in Delhi.

(Continued in Part II)

https://nitinagokhale.blogspot.in/2017/11/why-govt-was-forced-to-but-rafale-jets.html
Saturday, November 18, 2017

(www.nitinagokhale.blogspot.in),

Why govt was forced to but Rafale jets off the shelf

As the new political leadership was briefed about the impasse, MoD officials were told to try and break the deadlock as soon as possible since the IAF’s fleet of fighter aircraft was depleting alarmingly.

So, during a meeting of CNC on 25 September 2014, Dassault Aviation was told provide commitment on these two issues within 10 days. The Company demurred. As no response was received they were again requested vide letter dated 31 October 2014 that the requisite commitment may be provided within a week. In their response dated 7 November 2014, Dassault Aviation did not provide the confirmations sought by the CNC.

On 10 November 2014 meanwhile Parrikar took over as Defence Minister. While being briefed about the major pending projects and contracts, he realised that the MMRCA contract wasn’t going anywhere. Yet he wanted to give the French sufficient time to comply with the terms of the tender.

In December 2014, the French Defence Minister came visiting and as expected raised the issue of conclusion of contract negotiations in the MMRCA case with Parrikar who told him that conclusion of the contract was held up on account of the vendor not confirming compliance to the terms of the RFP. This was followed up by a formal letter from Parrikar to the French Defence Minister stating that it would be really useful for Dassault Aviation to confirm compliance to the terms of the RFP and the terms of the bid submitted by them at the earliest. It was further mentioned in the letter that the negotiations can be carried forward and concluded thereafter if Dassault Aviation could be asked to depute a fully empowered representative to discuss non-stop with CNC.

Another discussion with the delegation of Dassault Aviation was held on 12 February 2015. A clarification was sought from Dassault Aviation towards confirmation of compliance to the terms of the RFP and terms of the bid submitted by them specifically. The two crucial points, i.e. (i) the consolidated Man Hours (MH) based on which Dassault Aviation had been declared L-1 would be the same man hours required for license manufacture of 108 Rafale aircraft in India, and (ii) Dassault Aviation as the Seller under the contract for 126 aircraft for the IAF will undertake necessary contractual obligations as per RFP requirements.

The representatives of Dassault Aviation reiterated their stand on both issues and stated that while Dassault Aviation will be responsible only for delivery of 18 aircraft in a flyaway condition, they will not take ownership for the 108 aircraft to be manufactured by HAL as the Local Production Agency (LPA). On the issue regarding Man Hours , the Dassault Aviation representative stated that the company’s stand has always been consistent that the Man Hours indicated in their proposal correspond to the related tasks performed in French Industrial condition. He also mentioned that only HAL being the Lead Production Agency can talk about the factor of multiplication to be applied to these Man Hours to convert the same to the Man Hours required for license production of 108 aircraft in India. Clearly, Dassault Aviation was using the loophole in the original terms of the tender to get away with shirking its responsibility towards the quality of the 108 jets to be manufactured in India.

Exasperated at the obduracy shown by the French company,MoD issued an ultimatum in on 20 March 2015 asking it to fulfill the commitment and confirmation on the two aspects mentioned above, ‘failing which MoD may be constrained to withdraw theRFPissued.’

However, Dassault Aviation, in its response dated 24 March 2015, did not commit on the two aspects mentioned above. Instead, the French Company stated that the estimate of consolidated Man Hours given by them is to be used by HAL to prepare its own quotation with respect to the completion of its (HAL’s) tasks under the MMRCA. The MoD realised that applying a factor of 2.7 on the Man Hours quoted by both Dassault Aviation and EADS (the company that quoted the second lowest price), the Total Cost of Acquisition (TCA), as on November 2011, would undergo a material change to the extent that Dassault Aviation would have no longer remained L1 vendor and would have become L2 vendor.

As the CNC members took the matter to Parrikar he realised the process had been convoluted to such an extent that, it would have been impossible to take it forward. He however knew from the briefings given by the IAF, there was no time to lose in acquiring fighter jets. The number of effective squadrons was going down rapidly. The IAF leadership also told him that they were happy with Rafale’s performance and would rather have the fighter in its fleet than scout of other options. Parrikar realised that another round of MMRCA kind of competition would have taken enormous time and effort. So he took the matter to the Prime Minister and briefed him about the necessity of procuring the fighter. At the same time, Parrikar told Modi, it would be legally untenable to go through with the MMRCA contract since the process had got vitiated completely thanks to Antony’s indecisiveness and a crucial oversight in the original terms of the contract.

Under the circumstances, there was no alternative but to withdraw the original tender, Parrikar told Modi since the CVC (Central Vigilance Commission) guidelines provide that negotiations cannot be held with the competitor who has come second in the contract (L2 vendor in officialese). The only way, the defence minister suggested, was to scrap the tender and buy a minimum number of Rafale jets off the shelf to fill a critical gap in the IAF’s inventory. The Prime Minister agreed and decided to talk to the French President about such a possibility during his upcoming visit to Paris in April 2015. The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) also gave its approval to the new proposal before Modi left for Paris on 9 April 2015.

That evening, alerted by a source about the possibility India scrapping the MMRCA tender and going in for off-the-shelf purchase of Rafale jets, I scooped the story on my blog NewsWarrior (www.nitinagokhale.blogspot.in), 10 minutes to midnight on 9 April, almost 22 hours before Modi’s announcement of India deciding to buy Rafale jets off the shelf was in Paris. I however got the numbers wrong. My report said India would buy 63 Rafale directly from Dassault Aviation.

Eventually, Prime Minister Modi announced in Paris that India would purchase 36 aircraft. Shishir Gupta of theHindustan Timeswas closer (as far as numbers were concerned). But I had the satisfaction of having reported about such a possibility before anyone else in the world, a fact that gives reporters an unimaginable high. Once our stories (Gupta’s and mine) were out, other news outlets started confirming the possibility. Most reports on 10 April 2015, waiting for the announcement to be made by Modi and Hollande, quoted my blog post and Gupta’s report as the source of the initial information.

India’s decision, announced at a joint Press Conference between Modi and then French President Francoise Hollande on 10 April 2015, took everyone by surprise but under the circumstances, the Prime Minister had chosen the best possible solution.

Once the in-principle decision was taken, it was left to Parrikar and his team in the MoD to negotiate the eventual price for buying the 36 jets. Their confidence bolstered by the PMO, the Parrikar-led MoD drove a hard bargain with the French. But it wasn’t until another 15 months later—in September 2016-- that India finally signed the contract and got the state-of-the-art fighters at a competitive price.

36 Rafale Vs 126 MMRCA Package Comparison

As the contract was signed, inevitable comparisons about the costs India was paying for the 36 jets and the 126 planes India was supposed to have bought under the MMRCA deal, began.

The final negotiated price for 36 Rafale package, along with initial consignment of weapons, Performance-based Logistics (PBL), simulators along with annual maintenance and associated equipment and services was fixed at 7890 million Euros. The average unit cost of Rafale aircraft thus turned out to be 91.7 million Euros (going by the Euro-to-rupee conversion rate at the time of signing the contract it meant each aircraft would cost Rs 688.30 crore and not Rs 1500 or Rs 1700 crore quoted by some analysts). In any case, officials involved in the nitty-gritty of the negotiations pointed out that the package cost of 126 MMRCA and 36 Rafale cannot be directly compared to work out per unit cost as the deliverables in the two cases were quiet divergent. Obviously, the CCS, briefed in detail about the absolute necessity of procuring the Rafale jets for the IAF and the cost comparisons, did not hesitate for a moment to clear the proposal, Parrikar remembers. “I must give full credit to the negotiating team for having diligently worked out all details to get a good bargain and the Prime Minister’s total trust in us” Parrikar told me.

What the former defence minister doesn’t mention however is his own steadfast belief that the cost had to be negotiated to India’s advantage. Recalls a senior IAF official involved in the hard bargain with the French: “It was Mr Parrikar who backed us to the hilt and even held firm in the face of tremendous pressure applied by the French when their President (Francois Hollande) was in Delhi as the Chief Guest for the Republic Day Parade in January 2016. Mr Hollande was keen to sign the MoU, inclusive of the finalised price, with our Prime Minister while in Delhi. We negotiated through the night until 4 am but the price Mr Parrikar thought was still high. So he took the matter to the PM and requested him to sign the MoU without mentioning the final price, which Modi promptly did. So on 26 January 2016, India and France signed a MoU for India to buy 36 Rafale fighter jets. Newspapers reports the next day said the 9 billion dollars deal would take some time to be finalised. It took another eight months for the contract to be signed. The team drove a hard bargain and obtained a hefty discount. As I wrote on my website,www.bharatshakti.in: “The MoD-IAF negotiating team extracted many concessions and discounts to arrive at a price that is almost 750 million less than what was being quoted by the French side in January 2016, when the commercial negotiations gathered pace, almost seven months after Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced India’s intention to buy 36 Rafales off the shelf from France during his trip to Paris in April 2015.

“To bring down the cost, the Indian team asked French officials to calculate the deal on actual cost (Price as on today) plus European Inflation Indices (which varies like stock markets and is currently around 1 per cent per annum). The MoD has also capped the European Inflation Indices to maximum 3.5 per cent a year. In other words, if inflation Indices goes down (chances of it going down are more, looking at the current situation of European markets) India will have to pay less. Even if it goes up India will not pay more than 3.5 per cent increase.

“In the now scrapped process for buying 126 Medium Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) floated the confusion reigned supreme in calculating the cost of the contract. After the French Dassault Aviation—makers of the Rafale Jet—emerged winners the UPA government had agreed with French officials to calculate the price on the fixed cost formula that allowed the company to include additional price of 3.9 per cent Inflation Indices from day 1 of the deal. So, had the India gone ahead with the UPA deal and the European Inflation Indices had fallen (as it indeed has), India would have ended up paying additional cost of inflation Indices (@3.9 per cent) which was already added at the initial negotiation itself.”

The lower price apart, the Rafales that IAF will operate will have a weapon suite much superior to the ones proposed in the earlier case. They will include Air to Air weapons METEOR Beyond Visual Range Missiles with ranges more than 150 Km, MICA-RF Beyond Visual Range Missiles with ranges more than 80 Km and MICA-IR Close Combat Missiles with ranges more than 60 Km. The Air-Ground weapons include SCALP missiles with range in excess of 300 Km. The induction of METEOR and SCALP missiles will provide a significant capability edge to the IAF over India’s adversaries.

The Rafale for IAF will have 13 India Specific Enhancement (ISE) capabilities which are not present in the Rafale aircraft being operated by other countries. Three capabilities pertain to Radar enhancements which will provide IAF with better long range capability. One of the specific capability being acquired is the Helmet Mounted Display (HMD) through which the IAF pilots will be able counter many threats simultaneously. Another very significant capability enhancement sought is the ability to start and operate from 'High Altitude Airfields'. The 36 Rafale aircraft are to be delivered to the IAF within 67 months after signing of the Inter-Government Agreement. This delivery schedule is better than the delivery schedule proposed earlier by the French side by five months.

But buying the aircraft is only the first step. After the initial purchase, the effectiveness of any aircraft is in the speed with which it can be repaired and ‘turned around,’ that is readied for another mission the moment it returns to base. In that respect, the IAF could not have negotiated a better deal.

In MMRCA case, the initial PBL support was to be for five years for one squadron. In 36 Rafale case, the PBL is for five years for two squadrons with an additional contractual commitment for another two years with the base year prices kept intact. In the earlier proposed contract, the computation of PBL performance had considered cannibalisation of components from unserviceable aircraft. The Indian side was able to remove this clause without any additional cost. The PBL Agreement now stipulates that the company will ensures that a minimum 75 per cent of the fleet will always be available for operations. Moreover, Rafale has lesser turnaround time as compared to other fighter available. The Rafale aircraft can do five sorties in a day as compared to other two engine fighter aircraft available which have a sortie generation rate of three per day.

Rafale was the biggest of the complicated cases that the MoD resolved but there were other crucial pieces of equipment that India needed and needed as soon as possible. So all the hurdles in purchases of artillery guns (M-777 howitzers from the US), attack and medium lift helicopters for the Army (Chinook and Apache helicopters from the US); frigates and mine counter-measure vessels for the Navy and Akash missiles for the Air Force, were removed in double quick time.

(Excerpted from my book Securing India: The Modi Way: Pathankot, Surgical strikes and more)
 
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Kshithij

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Intentionally blind persons like Pappu Gandhi conveniently skipped that Reliance was the proposed Tier-1 supplier for license production at HAL. That Reliance was also have 0% Defence manufacturing experience.
But right now, after takeover of Pipavav Shipbuilding, Reliance earned a lot of Defence experience and it is still rising.

Good to share the pappu's tweet.

Right Now, I have unconfirmed update that Dassault proposed a plan for MK1A/MK2. Will share the confirmation by tomorrow evening...
If this becomes true than DRAL will share its fruits with LCA.
Definitely, DRAL was always meant for long term defence manufacturing and not just short term. It included manufacturing of parts for LCA, AMCA, Hawk and pretty much all related items. That is what indigenisation and privatisation is about. It would be utterly meaningless if the several billion worth DRAL is just to make a bunch if rafales to close down permanently.

Parrikar is the best DM we had. Modi is probably the best PM we have. But there is a difference in their worldviews.
Modi believes world power comes from economic progress and wealth.
Parrikar believes both wealth and knowledge are needed.
That is why Modi is happy with a "Make in India" which brings jobs and prosperity.
Parrikar it seems would favour a "Made in India" and would prioritize knowledge attainment along with economic prosperity.
I belong to the camp who believe both are equally needed - you need both Lakshmi and Saraswati.
Again, you are mistaking Modi. Look at electronic sector, for example. Modi is bringing in electronic manufacturing slowly into India, first by assembly, then by manufacture if easy parts and so on. He wanted to set up fabrication unit but realised that there will be no buyers as there is no other infrastructure. Hence these baby steps.

Modi wants Indian forex to be stable and current account in surplus. So, he wants make in India. India already has lot of designing talent and other service sector. What is needed is manufacturing technology and manufacturing units to employ our people and take advantage of cheaper labour cost.

It has always been BJP agenda to militarise India. Modi is also following same path
 

Kshithij

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HAL has problems. But it is possible to grow private sector by working more with HAL and gradually acquiring more work share. Right now they are not in a position to dictate terms to Dassault and is the weaker partner. They cannot force Dassault to transfer any technology and may not feel any compulsion to do so.
We will end up in a Brahmos or Barak-8 like scenario - even after so many years of manufacturing, we still don't have engine tech of Brahmos. In case of Barak-8, we don't have seeker technology.

Regarding elections, more corporate money only ensures more corporate interests are protected.
Technology transfer in defence is always done by government to governments, not private company to private companies. This is always the case without exception.

Rafale deal will already include technology transfer agreements. The private partnership is only for implementation of the deal, word by word. Reliance will get no additional ToT without a new deal specifying the additional ToT. DRAL is not economic partnership with profit motive. Defence manufacturing is based on novel technology and royalty charges rather than competition for cheap labour
 

Bhoot Pishach

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Parrikar is the best DM we had. Modi is probably the best PM we have. But there is a difference in their worldviews.
Modi believes world power comes from economic progress and wealth.
Parrikar believes both wealth and knowledge are needed.
That is why Modi is happy with a "Make in India" which brings jobs and prosperity.
Parrikar it seems would favour a "Made in India" and would prioritize knowledge attainment along with economic prosperity.
I belong to the camp who believe both are equally needed - you need both Lakshmi and Saraswati.
And this is Directly from Horse's Mouth itself.

This is what Mr.Parrikar has to say about Rafale Deal.


Mr.Parrikar has corroborated the facts written by Mr.Nitin Gokhle.
 
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singh100ful

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Congress has never done anything good for the nation.

But, in ignorance, while trying to corner Modi they are doing something good by questioning Rafale Deal.

They are trending #RakshaMantriJawabDo


Let them question every Foreign Defense Deal. It will force GOI and MOD think twice before considering any Foreign Defense Deal, where indigenous alternate is available.

Congress must also question every deal where there is an "Made in India" product is available.

This may prove good for indigenous products and projects.
This is just rhetoric.
The IT cell of these political parties can trend alot of such idiotic.
The pappu does not know how to pronounce rafale and instead pronouncing as "rafael" shows his level.
And another thing that shows his level is he does not believe what COAS had said in a press conference about getting a better deal by going in G2G route and still questioning.
 

Kshithij

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Parrikar says that the the planes were ordered in flyaway condition without ToT. Then what is DRAL about? Is it just an investment by France into India at Indian expense? Taking the cost of Kaveri engine consultancy aside (1billion), the offset still had over 20000 crore to be invested in India. So, where is it invested in? Is India funding France 49% stake in DRAL for free?

Tejas manufacturing could have been done by private players with transfer of expertise from HAL itself as India already has technology and France is anyways not giving ToT.
 
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TPFscopes

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Parrikar says that the the planes were ordered in flyaway condition without ToT. Then what is DRAL about? Is it just an investment by France into India at Indian expense? Taking the cost of Kaveri engine consultancy aside (1billion), the offset still had over 20000 crore to be invested in India. So, where is it invested in? Is India funding France 49% stake in DRAL for free?

Tejas manufacturing could have been done by private players with transfer of expertise from HAL itself as India already has technology and France is anyways not giving ToT.
This thread is on derail track..
As for ToT, there are a few joint ventures formed in recent days:
1. Thales-RDL
2. MBDA-L&T
3. Thales-BEL
4. Dassault-RDL (€100 million only)
5. SAFRAN-GTRE
6. Thales-Samtel

More JVs to go further and without sharing of Technology these JV can't develop or produce any product. Now, I think Dassault will not have to announce the phrase "ToT" again and again to convince others (opposition) or they need to produce what they want?.
All in all they already shared and will share critical technologies with their respective Indian partners to produce critical equipments and products.
 

VIP

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Anil Ambani had openly campaigned for BJP in 2012 Gujarat elections. Modi will not forget that.

Also, private sector in defence can be developed only by these tactics. HAL can't cater to all the needs due to several red tapes, unions and government rules which are archaic but sensitive and hence can't meet all needs. Also, election funds are needed for today's chaotic nonsense called REPRESENTATIVE DEMOCRACY which is better earned through private sector than imports
Did he? I didn't notice anywhere that he was campaigning for BJP.
 

pmaitra

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The average unit cost of Rafale aircraft thus turned out to be 91.7 million Euros (going by the Euro-to-rupee conversion rate at the time of signing the contract it meant each aircraft would cost Rs 688.30 crore and not Rs 1500 or Rs 1700 crore quoted by some analysts). In any case, officials involved in the nitty-gritty of the negotiations pointed out that the package cost of 126 MMRCA and 36 Rafale cannot be directly compared to work out per unit cost as the deliverables in the two cases were quiet divergent. Obviously, the CCS, briefed in detail about the absolute necessity of procuring the Rafale jets for the IAF and the cost comparisons, did not hesitate for a moment to clear the proposal,
An attempt to compare the previous deal with the current deal is futile. There are too many variables involved, and no one has seen the complete set of clauses in the two deals. Ultimately, one has no choice but to trust the bureaucrats and IAF officers to get the French to agree to a deal good enough for India.

The painful truth is the following two articles.
Indian Air Force: Tejas Light Combat Aircraft Can’t Protect Indian Skies
‘Tejas not enough, need foreign single-engine jets’
Many people want to see more indigenous aircraft inducted, but it is not happening as many had hoped.


The lower price apart, the Rafales that IAF will operate will have a weapon suite much superior to the ones proposed in the earlier case. They will include Air to Air weapons METEOR Beyond Visual Range Missiles with ranges more than 150 Km, MICA-RF Beyond Visual Range Missiles with ranges more than 80 Km and MICA-IR Close Combat Missiles with ranges more than 60 Km. The Air-Ground weapons include SCALP missiles with range in excess of 300 Km. The induction of METEOR and SCALP missiles will provide a significant capability edge to the IAF over India’s adversaries.
Without the SCALP-EG, the Rafale looks much less attractive than it is. It's biggest advertising point was the SCALP-EG used during the French/NATO invasion of Libya. Hopefully, our folks will be able to learn a thing or two by pulling one apart when no one is looking. It is worth mentioning that ISRO's Vikas engine was built by India scientists who had worked with the French assisting their space programme.

Moreover, Rafale has lesser turnaround time as compared to other fighter available. The Rafale aircraft can do five sorties in a day as compared to other two engine fighter aircraft available which have a sortie generation rate of three per day.
Five sorties per day is an optimistic claim. Moreover, sortie time also impacts sortie rate.

Here are some excerpts from an article on what a realistic sortie rate would be:
“If I had thirty-two airplanes and they were all different I think we could—with good logistics—get a four-turn-four from the Su-24s, a four-turn-four from the Su-25s, and two-turn-twos from the Su-30s and Su-34s…. So that’s twenty-four sorties a day.”
Like the Air Force officials, U.S. Navy officials questioned how many sorties the Russian forces would be able to fly. “We also flew a five-turn-five-turn-five schedule for fifteen sorties a day,” the naval aviator said. “This was relatively aggressive from a resource standpoint. We’re talking jets, but how many pilots did they bring? What is their maintenance footprint?”
_________________

Ultimately, I hope the LCA is not scrapped, and its improvements are continually inducted into the IAF. This is going to be a stepping stone for us to build an indigenous airplane with more and more indigenous components.
 

TPFscopes

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Right Now, I have unconfirmed update that Dassault proposed a plan for MK1A/MK2. Will share the confirmation by tomorrow evening...
If this becomes true than DRAL will share its fruits with LCA.
There is a proposal from Dassault for LCA program..
Dassault proposed to cooperate in the project for MK1A and collaboration in future LCA variant.
They proposed to modify LCA with their expertise. Proposed to provide better Weapon package, avionics, redesign the internal arrangement to increase space for fuel & more Avionics.
Increase the modularity and easy access to all parts to reduce the maintenance duration.
Installation of higher thurst Safranized Kaveri.
Promised to increase the indigenous content of LCA (most probably by producing thosed parts with various indo-french joint ventures, most of them are already formed).

Speculation:
If more orders of Rafales will be placed (which is very likely) than it will be quite feasible to have Dassault cooperation in LCA Tejas..

Proposal likely to be discussed in next CCS meeting. Will see whether it will get accepted or rejected..
 

BON PLAN

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In all fairness, neither France nor India (particularly) are known to be efficient decision-makers. Both parties probably haggling over small matters with lots of hand-gestures involved. :devil::yo:
It's not totally true. See the first Rafale deal with Egypt : discussed and inked in a few months (3 to 4 if I remember well).
 

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