Know Your 'Rafale'

[Kay]

Well . In retrospect it looks like a blunder. Probably Dassault overestimated its chances to sell Rafale ??

One has also to remember that Mirage 2000 was already quite expensive for its time. A country like Peru struggled to find money to afford a dozen of them. And Greece ... well Greece never had a responsible policy with public spending.

Rafale was developed as per need of French Air Force. They wanted to replace multiple platforms with a single one to reduce cost. So, in that regards it was successful. It was not designed keeping in mind the needs and budgets of developing nations.

 

[Kay]

There sure will be more Rafale orders in future - when and how much is the question.
But surely, the current offsets have to bear fruit so that government can justify further orders - that includes Kaveri engine becoming airworthy.

 

[pmaitra]

I wonder if France could have continued manufacturing both Mirage 2000s and Rafales after all Rafale is a different class of aircraft- TEF vs SEF.

Lockheed Martin continues to churn out F-16s as they crank up the production of F-35s, likewise with Boeing and F-15s and F-18s, albeit in different locations.

I understand that economies and scale are different between the US and France, but like F-16s, Mirage 2000s have had plenty of customers around the world and Dassault is a big name player in international aviation.

France does not have the financial wherewithal like the United States. The number of experimental aircraft that the US has built will boggle one's mind. You should read the review of the book entitled “The Big Book of X-Bombers and X-Fighters,” by Steve Pace, which I have referenced in the Tupolev-160 thread.

 

[vayuu1]

Congies trolls saying rafale scam on teetar, saying why a plane worth 576 crore is selling at 1571crore, I told them, ever heard of offset, ever heard of weapons package. They have blocked me since.

Sent from my vivo 1601 using Tapatalk

 

[Vinod DX9]

Check this....his report on Rafale deal

 

[Armand2REP]

Modi needs to order the second batch so he can justify the price per unit. It looks bad to have infrastructure for 128 aircraft with only 36 paid for.

 

[Chinmoy]

NDA govt saved over Rs 12,600 crore in Rafale deal

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...crore-in-rafale-deal/articleshow/61760997.cms

 

[F-14B]

NDA govt saved over Rs 12,600 crore in Rafale deal

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com...crore-in-rafale-deal/articleshow/61760997.cms

Congis be like
this is a paid news article

 

[Chinmoy]

Congis be like
this is a paid news article

Lets see what our very own @sayareakd have to say. Read the concern of @Yusuf over twitter.

 

[Kshithij]

Lets see what our very own @sayareakd have to say. Read the concern of @Yusuf over twitter.

Provide link to them if you have. It will be easier to find one or two opinions amongst thousands of opinions

 

[Kay]

There sure will be more Rafale orders in future - when and how much is the question.
But surely, the current offsets have to bear fruit so that government can justify further orders - that includes Kaveri engine becoming airworthy.

Have to change my mind.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2017/11/part-2-how-much-did-rafale-actually-cost.html?m=1
We are paying 20-25 million euros more for each Rafale than what French government is buying.

"The reason could be that France expects India to pay a significant share of the Rafale’s development costs."

"The IAF, therefore, is effectively subsidising French aerospace R&D and industry."

 

[Kay]

Have to change my mind.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2017/11/part-2-how-much-did-rafale-actually-cost.html?m=1
We are paying 20-25 million dollars more for each Rafale than what French government is buying.

"The reason could be that France expects India to pay a significant share of the Rafale’s development costs."

"The IAF, therefore, is effectively subsidising French aerospace R&D and industry."

The NDA deal is better than UPA, but nothing tops building our own.

 

[uoftotaku]

Have to change my mind.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2017/11/part-2-how-much-did-rafale-actually-cost.html?m=1
We are paying 20-25 million dollars more for each Rafale than what French government is buying.

"The reason could be that France expects India to pay a significant share of the Rafale’s development costs."

"The IAF, therefore, is effectively subsidising French aerospace R&D and industry."

Of course you pay more! Do you expect the French tax payer to subsidize acquisition by a foreign govt? And YES the we are paying for development cost because we are getting SPECIAL CUSTOM MODIFICATIONS on our Rafale's!

 

[Kay]

Of course you pay more! Do you expect the French tax payer to subsidize acquisition by a foreign govt? And YES the we are paying for development cost because we are getting SPECIAL CUSTOM MODIFICATIONS on our Rafale's!

We are paying 2.25 billion euros extra for India specific modifications on top of mentioned prices - pls go through the link. The prices are acquisition prices - do you have any source of French subsidy on Rafale prices?

 

[uoftotaku]

We are paying 2.25 billion euros extra for India specific modifications on top of mentioned prices - pls go through the link. The prices are acquisition prices - do you have any source of French subsidy on Rafale prices?

I would rather sit on the toilet for 20 mins than read nonsense from Ajai Shukla...nothing that man spews is worth discussion. Period

 

[Kay]

I would rather sit on the toilet for 20 mins than read nonsense from Ajai Shukla...nothing that man spews is worth discussion. Period

He has sympathies for Congress, but the figures he is quoting have to stand unless there are alternate numbers.
We have to restrict foreign purchases to a bare minimum - money is best spent on indegeneous projects and RnD.

 

[mayfair]

I think the comparison should be made with export price of Rafale than the domestic prices for the French Airforce.

And it's not just Rafale. Do look at Su-30 prices for RuAf and IAF.

The unit price of Su-30MK2 for RuAF was $40 million or thereabouts in 2012-2013.

IAF was paying $56-60 million for HAL "manufactured" Su-30MKIs in 2014!! That is almost 50% higher. Of course MKI includes India-specific modifications, see the picture???

This website claims that F-16 Block 52 per unit cost for the USAF is only $34 million!!!

http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/F-16D-Block-52_a000540012.aspx

and Iraq recently bought 18 F-16s for $105 million per AC!!

After all the diatribe, Shook-law himself says

Can the price the IAF has paid for the Rafale be compared with the price the other two buyers – Egypt and Qatar – have paid? While such a comparison would face the same pitfall of not knowing what each of those contracts includes, on the face of it, both those buyers are paying prices similar to, or higher than, the IAF.

Indian contract is very transparent and all the details are available including on Shook-law's website.

 

[Kay]

I think the comparison should be made with export price of Rafale than the domestic prices for the French Airforce.

And it's not just Rafale. Do look at Su-30 prices for RuAf and IAF.

The unit price of Su-30MK2 for RuAF was $40 million or thereabouts in 2012-2013.

IAF was paying $56-60 million for HAL "manufactured" Su-30MKIs in 2014!! That is almost 50% higher. Of course MKI includes India-specific modifications, see the picture???

This website claims that F-16 Block 52 per unit cost for the USAF is only $34 million!!!

http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/F-16D-Block-52_a000540012.aspx

and Iraq recently bought 18 F-16s for $105 million per AC!!

After all the diatribe, Shook-law himself says



Indian contract is very transparent and all the details are available including on Shook-law's website.

I am not questioning transparency - just the rationale of buying foreign planes and equipment - just imagine what the additional money we are paying could have done for our defense RnD.
We pay a pittance for RnD - compare that to a small country like Denmark spending 10 % of GDP on RnD.

 

[Kay]

Modi needs to order the second batch so he can justify the price per unit. It looks bad to have infrastructure for 128 aircraft with only 36 paid for.

Absolutely nothing has to be ordered unless Kaveri engine is flight worthy.

 

[mayfair]

Those are different issues altogether. R&D budget is different from CAPEX for acquisitions and need not be "Either Or" situation. The argument is on the same lines of - Poverty vs Space Programme, Bullet train vs Rail infrastructure.

Rafale is a twin engine fighter, we currently do not manufacture one by ourselves. AMCA will come down later. This is why SEF is a bad idea since it comes at the cost of Tejas.

Along with the funds, our defence R&D also suffers from institutional shortcomings- scientist recruitment, project management etc. Increasing R&D without wholescale structural reforms will not achieve much. Much needs to be done on both the accounts.