Know Your 'Rafale'

Tactical Frog

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There is a proposal from Dassault for LCA program..
Dassault proposed to cooperate in the project for MK1A and collaboration in future LCA variant.
They proposed to modify LCA with their expertise. Proposed to provide better Weapon package, avionics, redesign the internal arrangement to increase space for fuel & more Avionics.
Increase the modularity and easy access to all parts to reduce the maintenance duration.
Installation of higher thurst Safranized Kaveri.
Promised to increase the indigenous content of LCA (most probably by producing thosed parts with various indo-french joint ventures, most of them are already formed).

Speculation:
If more orders of Rafales will be placed (which is very likely) than it will be quite feasible to have Dassault cooperation in LCA Tejas..

Proposal likely to be discussed in next CCS meeting. Will see whether it will get accepted or rejected..
It makes sense to directly involve Dassault with Tejas of course. Win-win for both sides. Dassault can torpedo Lockheed - Saab bids in India and Indian side gets critical technical assistance for Tejas program.
Dassault knows Rafale is too expensive for a giant majority of airforces. It is not a concern to them if Tejas becomes a strong competitor to F-16, Gripen and Mig 35 on international markets .
 

TPFscopes

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Then why did they cease Mirage 2000 production. Surely, there was a huge market for these jets including India.
Once they proposed to shift the M2K production way back before MMRCA but we refused for it due to the need of MMRCA.
 

mayfair

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Once they proposed to shift the M2K production way back before MMRCA but we refused for it due to the need of MMRCA.
I am talking about our requirements specifically. After F-16s, Mirage 2000s are probably the most widely used SEF in the world. My question was specifically in response to @Tactical Frog comment that "Dassault knows that Rafale is too expensive for a giant majority of AFs".

If that's the case then why cease the production of an affordable fighter, which would continue to compete with F-16s and even Gripen.
 

Tactical Frog

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I am talking about our requirements specifically. After F-16s, Mirage 2000s are probably the most widely used SEF in the world. My question was specifically in response to @Tactical Frog comment that "Dassault knows that Rafale is too expensive for a giant majority of AFs".

If that's the case then why cease the production of an affordable fighter, which would continue to compete with F-16s and even Gripen.
Well . In retrospect it looks like a blunder. Probably Dassault overestimated its chances to sell Rafale ??

One has also to remember that Mirage 2000 was already quite expensive for its time. A country like Peru struggled to find money to afford a dozen of them. And Greece ... well Greece never had a responsible policy with public spendingo_O.
 

proud_indian

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An Examination of the Rafale Case: The Old Non-Deal and the New Deal
November 18, 2017



Earlier this week, questions were raised about the Rafale deal signed between India and France in September 2016. The allegations made went to the extent of issuing warnings about “a huge scam” in the deal and that the earlier 2012 proposal for an aircraft deal with Dassault Aviation (which manufactures the Rafale) was better and cheaper although that was never sealed.

We checked the facts of the case, and in the process also made a comparison between the two deals – the one that was never cleared by the previous administration and the new one signed last year by the current administration. Below are our findings:

KEY TAKEAWAYS
  • Acquisition of 36 Rafale is meant to address the IAF’s operational preparedness
  • Price of old deal did not include cost of weapons, equipment, tools, documentation, training & logistics. Adding these, the old deal’s cost goes up further
  • Total value of new deal includes cost of platform, infra support, supplies, India-specific changes, additional weapons package, logistics support
  • Under the old deal, India would have ended up paying more – for underdeveloped aircraft – and kept on paying more as per the vagaries of the European market
  • Dassault agreed to make India-specific modifications to Rafale under the new deal
  • Additions to Rafale and further concessions from Dassault and France have qualitatively changed the deal
  • Units are fundamentally different in qualitative terms
  • Under the new deal, Dassault will have to ensure that at any one point of time, 75% of the Rafale fleet is operational
MAIN TAKEAWAY
If there was a deal in 2012, why did India not get the aircraft? The answer is that there was no deal and thus quoting the price of the old “deal” itself and then comparing it is logically fallacious. The deal was on the verge of cancellation and the last administration’s prolonged delay led costs to shoot up. The current administration revived the deal and addressed a critical shortfall in the operational readiness of the IAF.

Moreover, the deal has been completely customised by Dassault now. If we use the analogy of buying a car, this is what happened: The price being quoted for the old proposal is of a base car unit, the skeleton, without modifications or additions. What we are getting now is a complete car, with all necessary equipment and tools added. The old proposal’s costs did not include anything like equipment, weapons, support & supplies, etc. Adding these, the price of the “old deal” would be nowhere near what has been quoted recently.

Therefore, the deliverables between the old proposal and the new deal are qualitatively very different. (In our study, we have mapped out the approximate costs under the new deal above and the reader can see how it all adds up.)

A Brief History of the Rafale Deal
  • Observing the Indian Air Force’s critical need for fighters, the proposal to procure 126 aircraft first came up in 2000.
  • Therefore, the idea did not originate in the 10 years of the previous administration. In fact, it is the same administration which could not take a decision.
  • The lowest vendor was decided only in 2012, after the Dassault Rafale won the competitive bid. Yet, over the next two years of the negotiations stalled and could not be completed.
  • By the time the change of guard happened at the Centre in 2014, the IAF’s squadron shortfall had already created a critical situation in its operational requirements. It was against this backdrop that the decision was taken to purchase at least 36 aircraft in flyaway condition.
  • The purchase of the 36 aircraft was decided during the summit between Prime Minister Narendra Modi and then French President Francois Hollande in Paris in April 2015.
  • Thereafter, India did not sign the deal as it stood in January 2016 because it did not agree with the price of €8.6bn.
  • The inter-governmental agreement was finally signed on September 23, 2016, in the presence of the then defence ministers of India and France.
  • India had also announced that if it were to order additional Rafale aircraft after the outright purchase of 36 fighters, it would thereafter go for government-to-government deals.

We also fact-checked some of the remaining critical claims that have been made against the Rafale deal signed last year.

Claim: New Rafale deal does not include transfer of technology (ToT) unlike the earlier proposal.

Fact: The new deal on 36 aircraft in flyaway condition does not include ToT. The reason for that is economic. Spread across 126 units, ToT costs would make less of an impact than the same on a base of 36 aircraft. Instead, what is being done now is the consolidation of the Strategic Partnership (SP) model, which goes way beyond ToT and is a much more holistic approach. In the near future, this is expected to enable a strengthened defence manufacturing process through “Make in India” with seamless sharing of technology and more.

Claim: The PM’s decision to buy 36 Rafale was “unilateral” and bypassed the Defence Procurement Procedure.

Fact: The decision was unilateral. Apart from the Joint Statement, the Inter-Governmental Agreement (IGA) was issued. Thereafter, the IGA was signed after approval from the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS).

Claim: The interests of “one industrial group” or Reliance Defence Limited was promoted, since Reliance tied up with Dassault in October 2016 for a joint venture.

Fact: Private players have come into India’s defence production and how two firms choose to work with each other, or not, whether they engage in a tie-up, is entirely a matter between the two parties involved. The Indian government was not involved in this process. More importantly, the acquisition of the 36 Rafale aircraft did not involve any private player. It is completely an agreement between two governments.


We know that despite Dassault winning the tender in 2012, the previous administration could not complete the deal, nor even successfully renegotiate it. It was after the change of administration that we saw a fresh impetus being given to the stalled project. In a significant difference, the new government began direct talks with the French government. What emerged from the inter-governmental negotiations was a new deal which, too, India did not sign till further tuning and alterations were made to its satisfaction.

When the deal was signed in September last year, we saw a deal very different from the original MMRCA deal. As listed above, the additions to the Rafale and the further concessions from Dassault Aviation and France have qualitatively changed the deal significantly. Factors like the unit price as in the previous deal and current deal simply cannot be compared because the units are fundamentally different in qualitative terms.

And yet, when compared, we find that the picture works out to the advantage of the new deal in each case and overall. In fact, it is under the old deal of the last government that India would have ended up paying more – for underdeveloped aircraft – and kept on paying more as per the vagaries of the European market!

India had a squadron strength of 42 in 2000 – the full authorised strength. Subsequently, little happened in terms of procurement and the armed forces, the IAF included, ended up with shortages. The acquisition of 36 Rafale is meant to address that fundamental question of the IAF’s operational preparedness. Having wasted several years even in securing the Rafale deal, there did not appear to be any time left for further delay.

http://thetruepicture.in/rafale-case-old-non-deal-new-deal/
 

pmaitra

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It makes sense to directly involve Dassault with Tejas of course. Win-win for both sides. Dassault can torpedo Lockheed - Saab bids in India and Indian side gets critical technical assistance for Tejas program.
Dassault knows Rafale is too expensive for a giant majority of airforces. It is not a concern to them if Tejas becomes a strong competitor to F-16, Gripen and Mig 35 on international markets .
Then why did they cease Mirage 2000 production. Surely, there was a huge market for these jets including India.
Once they proposed to shift the M2K production way back before MMRCA but we refused for it due to the need of MMRCA.
I am talking about our requirements specifically. After F-16s, Mirage 2000s are probably the most widely used SEF in the world. My question was specifically in response to @Tactical Frog comment that "Dassault knows that Rafale is too expensive for a giant majority of AFs".

If that's the case then why cease the production of an affordable fighter, which would continue to compete with F-16s and even Gripen.
Well . In retrospect it looks like a blunder. Probably Dassault overestimated its chances to sell Rafale ??

One has also to remember that Mirage 2000 was already quite expensive for its time. A country like Peru struggled to find money to afford a dozen of them. And Greece ... well Greece never had a responsible policy with public spendingo_O.
General comment in relation to the quoted posts:

Mirage-2000 is a great plane and has served IAF well. It is, nonetheless, not as agile as the Rafale, which has two extra control surfaces.

It is not wise of a seasoned airplane maker country like France to remain stuck with the Mirage-2000. It is imperative to continue to focus resources on the production of improved and/or modern designs. Continuing production of Mirage-2000 would have impeded progress with Rafale production, and alternatively, enhancing production capacity would have been capital intensive.

As correctly pointed out, India's pursuit of MMRCA probably made keeping Mirage-2000 production open a high-risk affair.

I don't think it was a blunder. One has to progress. People involved in R&D would be demoralized if their latest research were not put in production.
 

Vinod DX9

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Then why did they cease Mirage 2000 production. Surely, there was a huge market for these jets including India.
India rather eyed for Mirage-4000 (French F-15 you can say actually ) which paved the way of induction of Rafales unltimately
 

mayfair

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I don't think it was a blunder. One has to progress. People involved in R&D would be demoralized if their latest research were not put in production.
I wonder if France could have continued manufacturing both Mirage 2000s and Rafales after all Rafale is a different class of aircraft- TEF vs SEF.

Lockheed Martin continues to churn out F-16s as they crank up the production of F-35s, likewise with Boeing and F-15s and F-18s, albeit in different locations.

I understand that economies and scale are different between the US and France, but like F-16s, Mirage 2000s have had plenty of customers around the world and Dassault is a big name player in international aviation.
 

TPFscopes

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I wonder if France could have continued manufacturing both Mirage 2000s and Rafales after all Rafale is a different class of aircraft- TEF vs SEF.


Without further orders,no company want to run its production line. It is very similar to LM as their F-16 order book is about to finished. If they didn't got any further orders they will shut down f-16 production line. Right now, they reduced the production rate by 1/5th as compared to its peak production rate.

It's very common in demand and supply rule.
 

BON PLAN

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I am talking about our requirements specifically. After F-16s, Mirage 2000s are probably the most widely used SEF in the world. My question was specifically in response to @Tactical Frog comment that "Dassault knows that Rafale is too expensive for a giant majority of AFs".

If that's the case then why cease the production of an affordable fighter, which would continue to compete with F-16s and even Gripen.
IAF wanted 120+ Mirage 2000 (in a -5 form).
As often in India it takes months and years to non decide.
Dassault had no more M2000 in the back log and a new product was arriving : they decided to stop the production (after saying that very officialy to potential customers.... without effect).
The problem was not only with Dassault but also with Snecma... (M53 is now quite old design).

Sure IAF with 120 Mirage 2000-5 now would have another figure.
 

sthf

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As often in India it takes months and years to non decide.
In this specific case it was justified. The then Defence Minister got framed by some leeches within MOD in the coffin scandal when he wouldn't play nice to the arms brokers.

This and Bofors scandal spooked the then PM Atal Bihari Vajpayee and he refused to act on a single vendor situation.
 

Compersion

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Am i really the only one where i noticed the French had asked us to explain how we did the Sukhoi deal.

"After two years of evaluation and negotiations, on 30 November 1996, India signed a US$1.462 billion deal with Sukhoi for 50 Russian-produced Su-30MKIs in five batches. The first batch were eight Su-30MKs, the basic version of Su-30. The second batch were to be 10 Su-30Ks with French and Israeli avionics. The third batch were to be 10 Su-30MKIs featuring canard foreplanes. The fourth batch of 12 Su-30MKIs and final batch of 10 Su-30MKIs were to have the AL-31FP turbofans.

In October 2000, a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was signed for Indian licence-production of 140 Su-30MKIs; in December 2000, a deal was sealed at Russia's Irkutsk aircraft plant for full technology transfer."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI

Are we going to be only having 36 ... *replace the words above from Sukhoi and Russia to Rafale and France*

Sure the deal had to be done for reasons and the earlier deal had to be superseded for reasons. but does anyone want to say the ratio was india national interests first and not others meager thoughts and beliefs it was for they and them. but the deal is a deal between India and France and i have personally said and still feel it was and is the best deal subject to what happens next. at that time it was the best choice in view of foreign relations and also going ahead but ultimately its what happens next not the announcement and today (i.e. General Electric F414)

India and France
 

BON PLAN

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In this specific case it was justified. The then Defence Minister got framed by some leeches within MOD in the coffin scandal when he wouldn't play nice to the arms brokers.

This and Bofors scandal spooked the then PM Atal Bihari Vajpayee and he refused to act on a single vendor situation.
Maybe.
But see the result now.
I'm afraid just to see the deflation of your fleet and the too few planes orderd so far.
 

BON PLAN

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India rather eyed for Mirage-4000 (French F-15 you can say actually ) which paved the way of induction of Rafales unltimately
The Super Mirage 4000 was a beast, but also costly.
Too costly for France. And probably at those time also for India.
 

sthf

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Maybe.
But see the result now.
I'm afraid just to see the deflation of your fleet and the too few planes orderd so far.
Oh man you don't even know what kind of shit fest that would have been. Bofors Scam is still haunting Congress and Indian Army to this day. It was a good plan but wasn't worth the political chaos.

Had it moved forward without any hiccups, two things would have had happened.

1) IAF would have ordered a lot more M2K and that certainly would have killed Tejas just as Marut was killed before it.

2) MKI orders would have been halved.

Neither was good for IAF.
 

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