Know Your 'Rafale'

Kshithij

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wasn't the deal singed during UPA II then this is like chopping off ones on a leg with an ax
They are claiming that India paid twice the price UPA paid per rafale. Government has kept the content secretive and hasn't revealed the offset, kaveri engine consultation fees of 1 billion dollars etc. So, Congress is trying to confuse people by bringing in Reliance and overpayment
 

AmoghaVarsha

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Rafael deal: Congress alleges ‘huge scam’

SPECIAL CORRESPONDENT

NEW DELHI, NOVEMBER 14, 2017 17:21 IST
UPDATED: NOVEMBER 14, 2017 17:33 IST

The Congress on Tuesday alleged that a “huge scam is brewing” in the Rafael deal and accused the Modi government of “promoting the interests of Prime Minister’s crony capitalist friends.”

Addressing a press conference, Congress communications chief Randeep Surjewala said the government violated the Defence Procurement Procedure (DPP) and bypassed the interests of PSU Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

“On April 10, Prime Minister Modi visits France and announces the deal for purchase of 36 Rafael fighter aicraft in flyaway condition. This was done unilaterally without following the DPP, without any inter-governmental agreement and in the absence of India’s Defence Minister. However, Anil Ambani, owner of Reliance Defence Limited was present in France during the Prime Minister's visit,” alleged Mr Surjewala.

The Congress leader claimed that while the UPA government had signed the Rafael deal as a joint venture between its French maker, Dassault Aviation, and India’s HAL, the current government cancelled the entire process on 30 July, 2015.

This in turn, helped Reliance Defence Limited as they entered into a joint venture with Dassault, he said.

Mr. Surjewala said while India signed the $8.7 billion deal on September 23 last year, just 10 days later, on October 3, 2016, Reliance Defence Limited entered into a joint venture with the French fighter plane maker.

“It is time for the PM to answer why the planes were bought at such an inflated costs? Is it not true that as per UPA negotiated price, cost of one plane was Rs. 526.1 crores where as under NDA, the plane is costing Rs. 1570 crores? Why was transfer of technology for HAL not insisted? And finally, has the joint venture between Dassault and Reliance Defence been cleared by the Union Cabinet?” asked the Congress leader.

When asked why the Congress was raising the issue now, especially since all the facts of the deal were in public domain, Mr. Surjewala said, “No, we had raised it then as well. Former Defence Minister A.K. Antony, Manish Tewari and myself had raised it outside as well in Parliament. We were told that nothing has been signed. The deal has been signed last September and since then we have trying to gather information.”

www.thehindu.com/news/national/rafael-deal-congress-alleges-huge-scam/article20444680.ece
Matlab sharam to inko aati nahi.
 

BON PLAN

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IAF top brass can be bought. Indian public should have trust that their money is spent wisely. The deal should have included HAL - if only for TOT.
HAL is worldwide known not to be effective. I think there was an indian politic order to use a private company instead of the heavy bureaucratic HAL.
Rafale is THE fighter of the moment. Without US politic pressure, RAFALE had won in Korea, Marocco, probably Singapore.
In the two serious field tests made in Swiss and India, with results publicly give, Rafale was technically the best. It's not enough for you?
 

Kshithij

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HAL is worldwide known not to be effective. I think there was an indian politic order to use a private company instead of the heavy bureaucratic HAL.
Rafale is THE fighter of the moment. Without US politic pressure, RAFALE had won in Korea, Marocco, probably Singapore.
In the two serious field tests made in Swiss and India, with results publicly give, Rafale was technically the best. It's not enough for you?
Private companies have lower threshold of government responsibility and also can be a source of election funding without compromising security.

HAL is not ineffective or wasteful. It is just political maladministration
 

WolfPack86

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Indian govt must procure 150 rafale and 250 tejas mk1a. Indian govt must increase defence budget to 65 billion dollars in order procure more weapons.
 

Steven Rogers

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Su30 has high RCS which makes its role as air superiority difficult. It will be detected by enemy planes much before it can detect enemy planes. Ground radars are more powerful and can detect both Rafale and Su30 similarly hence doesn't matter.

Al41 may have higher lifespan, but that only means that when Al31 life ends, we should go with Al41 and not simply upgrade it when the engines are working fine.

The 25 million dollars is simply too expensive. We don't need weapons package as we can make the weapons ourselves. Why import weapons too?

I am just trying to say that Su30MKI cost India 56 million dollars, of which 55% by value was Indian content. Only about 25 million was from RUSSIA. Why do you suggest India to spend 25 million dollars in import cost for an upgrade again?

Anyways, my argument was that Su30 is much cheaper than Rafale and performs a pretty decent role with the drawback being radar and RCS. But, in terms of forex outgo, it is 20% of Rafale (taking cost if Rafale forex outgo to be 4.5 billion dollars as rest is offset)
My argument is 25million investment on Su30, not only import, it includes both the cost of Desi and firangi maal...
 

Kay

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HAL is worldwide known not to be effective. I think there was an indian politic order to use a private company instead of the heavy bureaucratic HAL.
Rafale is THE fighter of the moment. Without US politic pressure, RAFALE had won in Korea, Marocco, probably Singapore.
In the two serious field tests made in Swiss and India, with results publicly give, Rafale was technically the best. It's not enough for you?
Ineffectiveness of HAL is negative propaganda by lobbysts.

We are questioning the policies of our democratically elected politicians to use private company with zero experience instead of an experienced PSU. We feel we may get cheated on technology transfer as the private company does not have the experience to absorb or validate technology transfer.

We don't need the best plane.We need one that is good enough to do it's job and we need the technology transfer so that we can develop a world class plane.
 
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BON PLAN

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Any way possible...even if Russians don't like it..
It's not so easy.
China is more advanced than india in engine developpment, and they can't replace all russian engine so far, so what about india?
same for radars.

You have to work and work and work even more to hope to be independant. It takes time, constancy and money.
 

Kshithij

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It's not so easy.
China is more advanced than india in engine developpment, and they can't replace all russian engine so far, so what about india?
same for radars.

You have to work and work and work even more to hope to be independant. It takes time, constancy and money.
Work has been put in for some time now. It didn't take long for USA, France or UK to develop engine, why will it take long for India? Chinese engine project has progressed well and they are now about to be independent in engine manufacturing. They are no longer dependent on Russian engines.

Chinese engine development started with an overhaul in 2003-4. And it yielded results in less than 15 years. Same rules will apply for India too. There is no reason to say that western countries can develop engines in 15 years before the era of supercomputer (before 1990) while India can't even in today's world with supercomputing and precision technology.
 

VIP

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It's not so easy.
China is more advanced than india in engine developpment, and they can't replace all russian engine so far, so what about india?
same for radars.

You have to work and work and work even more to hope to be independant. It takes time, constancy and money.
India can produce engines, our brains are able to do such complicated things but the problem is our bureaucrats, politicians and lobby.
 

WolfPack86

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We must make France to give us as much as technology transfer in rafale deal. Intergration of Astra missile and Brahmos A missile will make rafale a potent fighter aircraft in Asia.
 

Kshithij

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We must make France to give us as much as technology transfer in rafale deal. Intergration of Astra missile and Brahmos A missile will make rafale a potent fighter aircraft in Asia.
France is not stupid to give high end technology which is difficult to make. They will only give those technology which is easy to make or in which india has progressed well.
 

Steven Rogers

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It's not so easy.
China is more advanced than india in engine developpment, and they can't replace all russian engine so far, so what about India?
same for radars.

You have to work and work and work even more to hope to be independant. It takes time, constancy and money.
Negative, in terms of metallurgy, they are not so ahead or not so far..... In which engine you're talking, Indian missiles use Indian propulsion(Nirbhay, Target drone ), none of their engine are variable cycle or feature flat rate like ours ....we have patented our single crystal super alloy(3rd gen) way before Chinese did. China is flying their engine with Russian super alloy.
 
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Kshithij

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Point to be noted - @BON PLAN is french guy, not indian
Negative, in terms of metallurgy, they are not so ahead or not so far..... In which engine you're talking, Indian missiles use Indian propulsion(Nirbhay, Target drone ), none of their engine are variable cycle or feature flat rate like ours ....we have patented our single crystal super alloy(3rd gen) way before Chinese did. China is flying their engine with Russian super alloy.
 

BON PLAN

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It didn't take long for USA, France or UK to develop engine, why will it take long for India?
It's the result of 70 years of improvements !
Just for M88, and it was during the cold war (ie with far more money than today), it takes 10 years to developp it....
 

Steven Rogers

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It's the result of 70 years of improvements !
Just for M88, and it was during the cold war (ie with far more money than today), it takes 10 years to developp it....
Metallurgy is the weak link of Indian aircraft propulsion system, which has improved from years, but yet to certify the production of that alloy which has been patented and claimed 3rd gen.

Sent from my Aqua Ace II using Tapatalk
 

Kshithij

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It's the result of 70 years of improvements !
Just for M88, and it was during the cold war (ie with far more money than today), it takes 10 years to developp it....
India also has been putting rigorous efforts since 1991. Special rigour has been applied during 1998-2004 and then from 2014-today. During 2004-2014, around 5 years were wasted due to political reasons. However, overall more than 20 years of effective development has taken place.

India is almost ready with the engine and is only a matter of time.
 

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