Know Your 'Rafale'

[Tactical Frog]

I am a bit under shock of course. I am nobody to interfer with my government plans if they are okay to lease a Rafale squadron to India. Just very, very surprised.

 

[uoftotaku]

I am a bit under shock of course. I am nobody to interfer with my government plans if they are okay to lease a Rafale squadron to India. Just very, very surprised.

The CdG is stuck in Toulon for the foreseeable future undergoing a deep upgrade. So the entire Marine Rafale force is sitting at Landivisiau doing training rotations. Makes sense to lease out a few "surplus" aircraft during this time as it has the added benefit of assuring future sales in addition to the obvious diplomatic benefits.

 

[Tactical Frog]

The CdG is stuck in Toulon for the foreseeable future undergoing a deep upgrade. So the entire Marine Rafale force is sitting at Landivisiau doing training rotations. Makes sense to lease out a few "surplus" aircraft during this time as it has the added benefit of assuring future sales in addition to the obvious diplomatic benefits.

Indeed, the CdG is undergoing a major upgrade and won’t be operational again before 2019. But :

1/ One Rafale M squadron is always on call for air police missions above the Atlantic sea coastline.
2/ Some Rafale M are still deployed in Jordan for operations against the Islamic State
3/ Some Rafale M will be deployed on a US Navy aircraft carrier next year
4 / All pilots need to fly their minimum hours per year. That might get complicate with less Rafale


You are right about the obvious diplomatic benefits and added benefits of assuring future sales ... All this must be balanced. One admiral will probably resign after nervous breakdown in the process

But : Is there a real point to lease Rafale M for a short period only ? That would only make sense if Dassault was able to deliver first Rafale M in early 2020. Impossible isn’t french, heh.

 

[WolfPack86]

India must sign rafale deal quickly. We must cancel single engine tender and improve tejas.

 

[Armand2REP]

India must sign rafale deal quickly. We must cancel single engine tender and improve tejas.

It looks like both of those are happening soon.

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...ts-techtransfer-air-pocket/article9945734.ece

 

[aditya10r]

India must sign rafale deal quickly. We must cancel single engine tender and improve tejas.

Stick to the initial plan of 294 Tejas and 126 rafales.

If possible build rafales in India.

Don't unnecessarily stress supply chain.

Gripen at best is a firangi TEJAS and f-16 is a old hag now with little to no room for development left.

If this plan is pursued then we will have 400+ jet fighters by 2030.

Plus with such big order we can ask for French help in development of AMCA.

 

[BON PLAN]

What the hell ? No way man. Mathematically we could do that but we won’t . We are not broken Greece yet

It's not totally impossible.
Our carrier is out of order for 18 months.
We need to train our pilots and India need a new naval fighter... the end is not completely Sci Fi.

 

[BON PLAN]

The CdG is stuck in Toulon for the foreseeable future undergoing a deep upgrade. So the entire Marine Rafale force is sitting at Landivisiau doing training rotations. Makes sense to lease out a few "surplus" aircraft during this time as it has the added benefit of assuring future sales in addition to the obvious diplomatic benefits.

No really.
Some Rafale M are deployed around the Syrian area to replace some air force ones.
Some Rafale M are used for air policy in the french sky.

So they are not jobless.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Great pic of Rafale M doing buddy refueling

 

[smestarz]

In the classic bargaining play, the Americans can yet be the spoilers and then Eric Trappier would be wondering "what the hell did i do wrong " the more he takes time, the more chances that the Americans get some deal which would leave both France and Dassault regretful.
Rafale is a good plane, but if the indian needs are not met, we have no issue to just use 36 planes,
We can have one base as summer base and other as winter base...

? He only does its job !
Dassault never lost money on a deal. Everybody knows that, even indian top brass.

So:
On one hand India need to have the best at the lowest price possible,
On the other one Dassault need to retain a max in the Merignac plant and sell the whole the higher price possible.

It's a classical bargaining play.

 

[lcafanboy]

In the classic bargaining play, the Americans can yet be the spoilers and then Eric Trappier would be wondering "what the hell did i do wrong " the more he takes time, the more chances that the Americans get some deal which would leave both France and Dassault regretful.
Rafale is a good plane, but if the indian needs are not met, we have no issue to just use 36 planes,
We can have one base as summer base and other as winter base...

The only way the US can spoil Dassault and France party is if they offer F-35S at speedier delivery. The next tranche of 36 Rafales are coming soon and will be assembled in India.

 

[mayfair]

The next tranche of 36 Rafales are coming soon and will be assembled in India.

How can you say that when the deal hasn't been signed yet and there's no sign of it on the horizon. Soon can mean something entirely when it comes to MoD acquisitions..

 

[lcafanboy]

How can you say that when the deal hasn't been signed yet and there's no sign of it on the horizon. Soon can mean something entirely when it comes to MoD acquisitions..

Cross post from IDF PARIKRAMA

Some small snippets

Nirbhay Missile

1. I had written here about the new guidance system work by Israel given to India with full TOT.
2. The first trial of that was done in a limited test of Nirbhay Missile at 0.6M (much lower than 0.8-0.85M ) for a ~650km
3. Israel worked on nirbhay in secret, guidance operations and targeting sensors were changed among other things.
4. This was a sample work for them the work was done along with Indian scientists.
5. In total the work to be done over multiple tests will catapult Nirbhay to a flight time of approx 90 Minutes and sustained speed of 0.8M over 80% of the flight.
6. The targeted range is approx 1500km to be tested step by step.
7. Proposed Cruising mode over 70 Minutes is targeted to cover approx 1150+ km other than boost and final engagement phase covering other 20 minutes.
8. Warhead design is further minutarised for more mission specific needs.
9. There are small changes in the body of the missile as well with trimming of wingspan marginally and optimising certain other aspects.
10. Now the whole missile and canister together is just under 1500 kg.

Rafale

• MOD had suggested a CBU completely Built Unit procurement for Rafale M owing to time needed to operationalize the DRAL facility.
• IN is insisting on MII proposition for additional benefit for MIC.
• IN has also written that beyond MRCBF it's looking at additional Rafale Procurement as well.
• In the discussion, IN clearly said it has the capacity and need of Rafale numbers which can standalone warrant a MII line for itself.
• MOD will internally discuss and call IAF and IN for joint discussion on the same.

Safranised Kaveri

• The present Safran core installed had given Safranised Kaveri an unstable thrust of 6x/9x.
• The step 1 is stable 65/98 and step 2 which is to be officially targeted to be deployed is 72/110.
• A further discussion with Saab on fitting this engine on Gripen E had resulted in a mixed response.
• Safranised Kaveri is much too large for unmodified Gripen so major modification is needed.
• When asked for the same , saab said it will take time.
• It has requested India to first finalize the design and operationalize the engine and then give us 5years to modify the bay and equalize the weight, etc etc to start certification process for the Safranised Kaveri Gripen E
• OTOH F16 is indeed a better host for that engine since the engine willcome with stealth features"Lower IR read" among other features.
• The F16 has enough space to play around and let that engine breath properly, the air intakes are big enough for uprated Safranised Kaveri engine also.
• F16 design is said to be an easier integrator for the engine where as the Gripen would need years and years of testing and redesign.
• The target rate for the engine is 110 with Afterburner but it has not yet reached that.
• Its high altitude testing will be done in France but stall test here in India.
• The engine is expected to have similar life values as Russia engines in 72/110Kn format and 65/98 is targeted to be at par with ECO pack like features.
• It's said that both these engines are targeted to be like M88-4 and M88-3 like needs, life and serviceability.
• A separate ECO pack for each is planned to enhance its life , serviceability and maintainence perspectives as much as possible.

 

[Kshithij]

It came from that forum :
http://*****************/threads/ia...-doors-in-new-delhi.62642/page-20#post-600714
100% indian one.

That site is filled with Pakistani mullahs with fake accounts. There is a reason why these people don't tell us their real names ever. They have secret words as being muslim, they will not keep other names as a matter of ego while they know that keeping real muslim names will lower their credibility.

India doesn't have any serious problems that will need French help at any cost. French aren't supermen or genetically superior. Also, the turbofan engine did not take 100 years of development. The latest engine with thrust to weight of 8.5-9.0 were made in 1990s itself which India can also make on its own by a similar process. India already has 1980s technology whereby 81kN thrust is produced. More fine tuning will take more time, but definitely possible. There is a reason French said that 75% of engine is complete - the crucial parts were completed.

 

[Kshithij]

Cross Post from IDF Parikrama:

Source Based News

First Rafale News

1. With the DM Florence conveying France's open endorsement of India's Anti China Stand and unlimited help in Modernisation and access to all technology point, many things have changed rapidly in last 2 weeks.
2. The biggest first change has come from Indian Navy.
3. IN has recommended France as a partner for Rafale program under MRCBF and beyond.
4. The MRCBF offer from France included giving a training squadron on lease right now itself for SBTF.
5. These planes will not be changed at all including whatever customisation they had engraved for N role except absence of the delivery system.
6. This was suppose to train us for the similar system under plan as well (to be used by selective IN and IAF pilot coming under Strategic Command)
7. IN has recommended a joint development role for India and France for Rafale program in it's report.
8. IN has recommended this joint development program rather than outright lease toincorporate "certain tech advancements further to IAF customizations leading to more evolved version of F4/4.2"
9. IN wants such standard planes from DRAL India under MII ONLY.
10. IN has also officallyendorsed and recommended France for technologyparticipation and active role of Naval group and Dassault Rafale Air Wing for all it's aircraft carrier - present and future.
11. IN has also recommended suitable studies for basically either complete replacement of older airwings or mixing them up with more potent Rafale Ms to boost their area of operation, roles and responsibilities.
12. The exact phrase and open recommendation from IN for jointprogram and studies "Was not expected" by bureaucrats of MOD and the ministers.
13. IN recommendation follows the open endorsement of IAF and it goes in line with the strategy of NSA Doval thereby opening up the TE MII under a expedient process of decision making.
14. This all was after a two hour long telephonic meeting between naval chiefs from US, IN and France along with representatives of parties with NSA Doval for this deal to come to conclusion.
15. This means the new aircraft carrier from India will have French elements instead of American ones since those are a bit on the heavier side and is costly with operational issues.
16. This Carrier option of EMALs might come from USA if EMALs power surge and maturity of systemscan be augmented by the Naval Group from operational stability perspectives..
17. The Rafale M was already a strong contender for IN and pairing it with this makes it offical choice No.1.
18. This new carrier will have many elements of proposed carrier program of France (as of now frozen but revival plan is underway with Prez Macron looking into it actively).
19. Offically the aircraft carrier talks mentioned about an endorsement from French Prez Macron and a representation of a joint program with India from French citizens ( @halloweene :biggthumpup
20. The TE MII aka Rafale MII with these endorsement will now be pursued independently and SE deal won't get priority treatement over Rafale MII due to any reasons (including finances as FM AJ is on board as well)

FGFA - Russia and other Russian deals

1. FGFA program freeze conveyed to HAL and this will be a huge loss for HAL order books.
2. The contours of FGFA deal is being studied for a graceful exit for both sides.
3. It seems that this will either be cut down PAKFA Stage 2 off the shelf procurement post 2022+ timeline or turned into a different deal altogether.
4. Russia had linked FGFA with S400 and it's 450MKI version evolution withPrometheus HTK components but India has resisted a lot as of now.
5. Russia has indicated now about linking S450MKI with N Sub lease deal.
6. India requested for Yasen Class beyond the Akula 2 and Russia has said no to advanced class sub lease and will not lease anything above Akula 2 class of what India was leased already
7. There is a deep crisis with US inspectionbased roles which Russia is not comfortable with at all.
8. There is a expectation that further roadblocks will be cropping for closing MKI Super upgrade program with the Russian Sukhoi unable to revert back on IAF pointsespecially on Airframe optimization for RCS reducation perspective with usage of advanced materials and increasing payload with better engines.
9. The new UL-BVR program is also not reverted for the so called Super Upgrade.
10. IAF has red flagged this concerns to MOD in it's reports.

Israel

1. Israel's name will againcome to the limelightsoon with firmed up deals in missile defence and offence systems.
2. In a rare occurrence PM Netanyahu had promised PM Modi technology for Missile Guidance systems when PM Modi visited Israel
3. These guidancesystems will help everything from missiles to drones to SAMs.
4. These are to be technology transferred to an Indian entity and made under MII and available for all indigenous, Joint developed and 3rd party systems which are built in India.
5. Actions taken by Israeli MIC indicates that PM Netanyahu is living up to his promise for close friend PM Modi.
6. It's also known that French connection to LCA systems and DRAL to ecosystems has jolted the Israelis.
7. With LCA systems potentially now with proposed French solutions, Israelis have realised that Price hiking confirmed 200+ 2052 orders is now up in dust completely. And so also WVR and BVR missiles tongo with it.

USA F16

1. F16 is still on top in that MII deal and it can only be dethroned if F35 ETA turns out to be more than 10-15 years. (Due to revoking of.priority transfer by moody POTUS)
2. USA still is seeking active mediatory role of India in Afghanistan and Afganistan has also asked India to consider this actively.
3. This has made the planners look for options which can go well with India's stance so far about Afganistan.
4. A small window in next 60 days has opened up and it's there for a deal for the F16 to be signed but a big wig from Sweden is also said to arrive during that window to try and bat for the Gripen.
5. Since the Swedish person has dual loyalties with the US and Sweden he is reported to tell the DM that the F16 deal is difficult to be done because it has a lot of strings attached but if it does happen Sweden will be happy but its growth is limited for future.
6. He is also to convey that if F16 deal does not happen india can still have Gripen which has more ability and can grow in accordance with skill and tech.
7. He will also propose a 3-5 year trial period for "assembly ckd" version of Gripen E in Adani JV plant before full shift to MII.
8. His contention is localisation should happen only post 5 years and use first 5 years of CKD to smoothen out assembling infrastructure.
9. He has already been conveyed that India wants localisation from Day 1 but Saab has indicated it's inability to do so for various reasons including Adani having no experience at all in aircraft component making.
10. MOD has conveyed to look at DRAL example which Saab andSweden not wanting to follow for commerical reasons.

Cross post from IDF PARIKRAMA

Some small snippets

Nirbhay Missile

1. I had written here about the new guidance system work by Israel given to India with full TOT.
2. The first trial of that was done in a limited test of Nirbhay Missile at 0.6M (much lower than 0.8-0.85M ) for a ~650km
3. Israel worked on nirbhay in secret, guidance operations and targeting sensors were changed among other things.
4. This was a sample work for them the work was done along with Indian scientists.
5. In total the work to be done over multiple tests will catapult Nirbhay to a flight time of approx 90 Minutes and sustained speed of 0.8M over 80% of the flight.
6. The targeted range is approx 1500km to be tested step by step.
7. Proposed Cruising mode over 70 Minutes is targeted to cover approx 1150+ km other than boost and final engagement phase covering other 20 minutes.
8. Warhead design is further minutarised for more mission specific needs.
9. There are small changes in the body of the missile as well with trimming of wingspan marginally and optimising certain other aspects.
10. Now the whole missile and canister together is just under 1500 kg.

Rafale

• MOD had suggested a CBU completely Built Unit procurement for Rafale M owing to time needed to operationalize the DRAL facility.
• IN is insisting on MII proposition for additional benefit for MIC.
• IN has also written that beyond MRCBF it's looking at additional Rafale Procurement as well.
• In the discussion, IN clearly said it has the capacity and need of Rafale numbers which can standalone warrant a MII line for itself.
• MOD will internally discuss and call IAF and IN for joint discussion on the same.

Safranised Kaveri

• The present Safran core installed had given Safranised Kaveri an unstable thrust of 6x/9x.
• The step 1 is stable 65/98 and step 2 which is to be officially targeted to be deployed is 72/110.
• A further discussion with Saab on fitting this engine on Gripen E had resulted in a mixed response.
• Safranised Kaveri is much too large for unmodified Gripen so major modification is needed.
• When asked for the same , saab said it will take time.
• It has requested India to first finalize the design and operationalize the engine and then give us 5years to modify the bay and equalize the weight, etc etc to start certification process for the Safranised Kaveri Gripen E
• OTOH F16 is indeed a better host for that engine since the engine willcome with stealth features"Lower IR read" among other features.
• The F16 has enough space to play around and let that engine breath properly, the air intakes are big enough for uprated Safranised Kaveri engine also.
• F16 design is said to be an easier integrator for the engine where as the Gripen would need years and years of testing and redesign.
• The target rate for the engine is 110 with Afterburner but it has not yet reached that.
• Its high altitude testing will be done in France but stall test here in India.
• The engine is expected to have similar life values as Russia engines in 72/110Kn format and 65/98 is targeted to be at par with ECO pack like features.
• It's said that both these engines are targeted to be like M88-4 and M88-3 like needs, life and serviceability.
• A separate ECO pack for each is planned to enhance its life , serviceability and maintainence perspectives as much as possible.

This Parikrama is that useless Mullah who utters anything that comes out of his behind and causes confusion. He speaks as if he knows everything whereas he is just a deranged person behind keyboard with his imaginary sources.

France will lease Rafales, India will take french help in aircraft carrier parts instead of USA, FGFA cancelation causing book loss to HAL, though HAL had never even started anything!

Then he speaks of Israel giving guidance system to Nirbhay cruise missile while India already had made Astra, radars, ABM, Akash SAM etc by itself! India only needs seekers and that too as confirmed by DRDO chief, is already in advanced stages of development. The seeker will be for Brahmos, BARAK-8, Nirbhay etc. India has also completed seeker for Astra. He also says that F16 is confirmed while it was made clear about ToT.

PARIKRAMA behaves very erratically when asked questions and doesn't give proper answers. He can't even defend his own words. I questioned him once about Safranised Kaveri in depth by comparing his posts on PDF and questioning the discrepancies. He had no answer.

IT IS BETTER TO COMMIT SUICIDE THAN TO BELIEVE IN THESE PARIKRAMA OR OTHER IDF/PDF MEMBERS.

 

[BON PLAN]

In the classic bargaining play, the Americans can yet be the spoilers and then Eric Trappier would be wondering "what the hell did i do wrong " the more he takes time, the more chances that the Americans get some deal which would leave both France and Dassault regretful.
Rafale is a good plane, but if the indian needs are not met, we have no issue to just use 36 planes,
We can have one base as summer base and other as winter base...

In the french community, the news now is that no more Rafale will be delivered from Merignac out of the first 36.
If I have understand correctly (i'm not 100% sure), the last 2 of the first 36 will be made in India, to show the way.

 

[BON PLAN]

The only way the US can spoil Dassault and France party is if they offer F-35S at speedier delivery. The next tranche of 36 Rafales are coming soon and will be assembled in India.

F35 is not a finished and efficient product now and for some time.
Every software release show new problems. For each problem solved, two new are discovered.

Sure at a time developpment will end, but when? some say in 2030 !

And all the defense community knows that stealth will vanished at a time, with new detection tools (multistatic radar, long ware radar, new IR detector...). After that (in 2020? 2025? 2030? ...) what will remain? a fat plane, with low flying qualities, and no possibility to overhaul the frame (when electronic suite can easily be upgraded on all fighter).

 

[BON PLAN]

That site is filled with Pakistani mullahs with fake accounts. There is a reason why these people don't tell us their real names ever. They have secret words as being muslim, they will not keep other names as a matter of ego while they know that keeping real muslim names will lower their credibility.

India doesn't have any serious problems that will need French help at any cost. French aren't supermen or genetically superior. Also, the turbofan engine did not take 100 years of development. The latest engine with thrust to weight of 8.5-9.0 were made in 1990s itself which India can also make on its own by a similar process. India already has 1980s technology whereby 81kN thrust is produced. More fine tuning will take more time, but definitely possible. There is a reason French said that 75% of engine is complete - the crucial parts were completed.

Yes and no.
Yes the crucial parts are completed. And probably more than 75%.
No because all the different parts are not working fine together. And it's the very difficult part of the engine maker job.

I have discussed around 1992 with the guy that was the head manager of the M88 developpment and early production (Mr Barbot, who was the father of a friend of mine). He said me that the fine tuning of an engine is very difficult and can't be compute. It's a feeling game. there are no more than a very few people among a motorist that can do this job, after yearssss of practice with older people doing the same job before, and so one.

I think these kind of guy exist in PW, GE, RR, Snecma, Klimov, NPO Saturn and... that's all.

You will need a long story in engine developpment, and a strong human ressource politic to create this very little family. It's not the case now, so you need help. From France or from another of the 3 other country with a skill in this area, and OK to give you the keys.

 

[Kshithij]

F35 is not a finished and efficient product now and for some time.
Every software release show new problems. For each problem solved, two new are discovered.

Sure at a time developpment will end, but when? some say in 2030 !

And all the defense community knows that stealth will vanished at a time, with new detection tools (multistatic radar, long ware radar, new IR detector...). After that (in 2020? 2025? 2030? ...) what will remain? a fat plane, with low flying qualities, and no possibility to overhaul the frame (when electronic suite can easily be upgraded on all fighter).

Yes, the stealth is already lost when seen via ground based radar. F35 stealth, however is in dogfight and air superiority. Since other planes can't have bigger and better radar due to size limitations and cooling limitations in the aeroplane cone, stealth will still apply.

If the idea is to invade airspace, then F35 is already a fat plane with low flying qualities. That is why Russia is developing highly maneuverable multirole fighter. They know the reality and are more practical.

Yes, I agree with Kaveri engine. That is why I said that India could have done it with some delay. But, not impossible. French helped to fasten it by 2-3 years at least in return for money and deals. No one gives ToT for engine and neither did France

 

[BON PLAN]

IT IS BETTER TO COMMIT SUICIDE THAN TO BELIEVE IN THESE PARIKRAMA OR OTHER IDF/PDF MEMBERS.

Excuse me Bro, but you are a newbie, when Parrikrama gave us very accurate news from long time.

So..... keep calm !