Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

The French are not doing it for Free. they are getting paid

Considering you only paid for Rafale, we are doing it for Free. Normally it would be a separate contract but India is such a high value partner we are willing to play by your extremely high offset demands.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Considering you only paid for Rafale, we are doing it for Free. Normally it would be a separate contract but India is such a high value partner we are willing to play by your extremely high offset demands.

Well....don't say that.

French agreed upon 50% offset clause. Saying French is still doing it for free is pure stupidity.

In that 50% offset French could have picked any task. But your(French) assistance in the Kaveri is much appreciated.

 

[Armand2REP]

Well....don't say that.

French agreed upon 50% offset clause. Saying French is still doing it for free is pure stupidity.

In that 50% offset French could have picked any task. But your(French) assistance in the Kaveri is much appreciated.

50% is pretty much unheard of as an offset amount. The Russians only pay 30% and often get the clause removed if something is fast-tracked. The companies also have full control over what they offer as offsets, it could be something as mundane as a call centre or as useless as screwdriver work which is the case with Russia.

 

[Flame Thrower]

50% is pretty much unheard of as an offset amount. The Russians only pay 30% and often get the clause removed if something is fast-tracked. The companies also have full control over what they offer as offsets, it could be something as mundane as a call centre or as useless as screwdriver work which is the case with Russia.

Question the Authority who signed the agreement in the first place. Stop bitching about the same.

French has no say on what or how we do business with Russia.

In the same way, Russia has no say in what or how we do business with France.

France signed for 50% offsets and they are keeping their promise.

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.livemint.com/Politics/gir42ucpOUPCoDwMKAGE4N/Rafale-fighter-jet-deal-comes-with-50-offset-clause.html?facet=amp&utm_source=googleamp&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=googleamp&ved=0ahUKEwjg3cbM-5DXAhUDzLwKHS3JCSQQFggzMAE&usg=AOvVaw0WRLMyx0prmtVRAP7WfJnw&ampcf=1

You sound like "France is doing a big favor which is not supposed to do in the first place". @Armand2REP your words unknowingly (knowingly!!??) disrespect your government(It is G2G deal) and authorities. I don't expect a veteran to do that.

French could have picked any thing for the offsets. I don't know of any discussion happened on offsets. But, I am happy and appreciate French efforts in Kaveri.

 

[Flame Thrower]

Double post.......................

 

[Armand2REP]

Question the Authority who signed the agreement in the first place. Stop bitching about the same.

French has no say on what or how we do business with Russia.

In the same way, Russia has no say in what or how we do business with France.

France signed for 50% offsets and they are keeping their promise.

I don't need to question anything, I simply point out that France offers far more than Russia.

We have plenty of say over Russia, just about anything from helicopters, aircraft to tanks has French components. Nothing of ours has Russian parts in it. They are falling behind the curve and relying on Europe to turn their Soviet tech into something modern.

[You sound like "France is doing a big favor which is not supposed to do in the first place". @Armand2REP your words unknowingly (knowingly!!??) disrespect your government(It is G2G deal) and authorities. I don't expect a veteran to do that.

French could have picked any thing for the offsets. I don't know of any discussion happened on offsets. But, I am happy and appreciate French efforts in Kaveri.

You sound pretty defensive, over what I have no idea. I am from a free society so I will say whatever I want about anything I want. Disrespect my government? I do it every time I vote. It isn't the government who fills these deals but commercial industry. It is the stockholders that are funding this, ie moi!

 

[Flame Thrower]

I don't need to question anything, I simply point out that France offers far more than Russia.

We have plenty of say over Russia, just about anything from helicopters, aircraft to tanks has French components. Nothing of ours has Russian parts in it. They are falling behind the curve and relying on Europe to turn their Soviet tech into something modern.



You sound pretty defensive, over what I have no idea. I am from a free society so I will say whatever I want about anything I want. Disrespect my government? I do it every time I vote. It isn't the government who fills these deals but commercial industry. It is the stockholders that are funding this, ie moi!

Lets take it in the chat and not polute the thread anymore.

 

[WolfPack86]

RAFALE PRODUCTION TO START AT NAGPUR PLANT FROM JANUARY 2018, SAYS CEO RAJESH DHINGRA

Reliance Defence is gearing up for the take-off of its Rafale jets manufacturing plans. In his first TV interview, the firm's CEO Rajesh Dhingra told CNBC-TV18's Rituparna Bhuyan that Reliance Defence plans to start production at its Dassault Reliance Aerospace (DRAL) facility in Nagpur by January 2018. He also expressed confidence that DRAL can start delivering Rafale fighter jets within three years of receiving an order.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/11/rafale-production-to-start-at-nagpur.html

 

[sthf]

He also expressed confidence that DRAL can start delivering Rafale fighter jets within three years of receiving an order.

So if MOD decides to order more Rafales by 2020, a "Make in India" program can happen but only if Eric Trappier stops being greedy.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes .. I meant India only .Proud of seeing Rafale with Indian colors. India is not a dictatorship.

2nd batch = deuxième tranche.

Oui, je sais....
But what 2nd batch? nothing official in the pipe now. Just hope from us, and the fact that india would be fool to adapt 2 air bases just for 36 planes.

 

[BON PLAN]

The French are not doing it for Free. they are getting paid

Quite normal no?
But even for money, US were not keen to.

 

[BON PLAN]

So if MOD decides to order more Rafales by 2020, a "Make in India" program can happen but only if Eric Trappier stops being greedy.

? He only does its job !
Dassault never lost money on a deal. Everybody knows that, even indian top brass.

So:
On one hand India need to have the best at the lowest price possible,
On the other one Dassault need to retain a max in the Merignac plant and sell the whole the higher price possible.

It's a classical bargaining play.

 

[sthf]

He only does its job !

Maybe but he is killing us that is certain. It is in France's interest that India buys as many Rafales as possible.

The original deal (MMRCA) was that France will provide 18-36 units in flyaway condition and India will manufacture atleast 90 more. Now that France has provided 36 units under the new deal, Eric Trappier is being too clever by half and is suggesting that only an order of 200+ warrants an Indian line. I'd call that greed.

Additional 36 + 57 for Indian Navy (if selected) needs an Indian line, there is no other way or you end up losing to Swedes or Americans if you don't act in time.

 

[BON PLAN]

Maybe but he is killing us that is certain. It is in France's interest that India buys as many Rafales as possible.

The original deal (MMRCA) was that France will provide 18-36 units in flyaway condition and India will manufacture atleast 90 more. Now that France has provided 36 units under the new deal, Eric Trappier is being too clever by half and is suggesting that only an order of 200+ warrants an Indian line. I'd call that greed.

Additional 36 + 57 for Indian Navy (if selected) needs an Indian line, there is no other way or you end up losing to Swedes or Americans if you don't act in time.

It's not what I have read.
Trappier want an order for 90 to built an assembly line in India. Not 200 !

LM and SAAB are making a lot of noise and publicity to their offer.
Dassault habits is to non communicate (they say it's the customer prerogative). But don't imagine Dassault is not pushing hard ! But as already said, Dassault never lost money on a deal. So they will never accept a bad deal.

 

[sthf]

It's not what I have read.
Trappier want an order for 90 to built an assembly line in India. Not 200 !

https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...n-india-dassault-ceo/articleshow/57160249.cms

It's not the noise that matters, it's the substance. Rafale (126) made sense over MKI because of the substantial savings in LCC but that is not the case anymore. LM & SAAB are offering the same over Rafale.

Right now, Dassault is in a position to make a deal since IAF prefers Rafale over both single engine offers and Gripen is few years away from maturing. Things will drastically change in 2-3 years when IAF squadron strength will be in mid 20s and all hell will break lose in the Defence Ministry.

There is no way that Dassault will come out as the loser in Indian assembly line deal. On the contrary, chances are that Indian Navy will be the largest user of Rafale M, which has only one user (France) and will be. Same goes for many proposed variants that Dassault couldn't build due to budgetary concerns.

 

[WolfPack86]

It is better order 90 Rafales for air force and 57 rafales for navy. Forget about single engine fighter deal it will not get through. Trump will not transfer technology to India. It is better develope Tejas. Indian Air force must order 150 Tejas mk 1a and 150 Tejas mark 2. Total 300 tejas we create more jobs and we can develope world class fighter. We should not repeat mistake of Marut fighter.

 

[F-14B]

it is kind of sad to see history repete with Dassualt India was also offered the option to make the Mirage 2000H in India and gusse what we did

 

[BON PLAN]

ALL IS SAID IN THE NEXT 3 POSTS.

Congrats men.

 

[lcafanboy]

Cross Post from IDF Parikrama:

Source Based News

First Rafale News

1. With the DM Florence conveying France's open endorsement of India's Anti China Stand and unlimited help in Modernisation and access to all technology point, many things have changed rapidly in last 2 weeks.
2. The biggest first change has come from Indian Navy.
3. IN has recommended France as a partner for Rafale program under MRCBF and beyond.
4. The MRCBF offer from France included giving a training squadron on lease right now itself for SBTF.
5. These planes will not be changed at all including whatever customisation they had engraved for N role except absence of the delivery system.
6. This was suppose to train us for the similar system under plan as well (to be used by selective IN and IAF pilot coming under Strategic Command)
7. IN has recommended a joint development role for India and France for Rafale program in it's report.
8. IN has recommended this joint development program rather than outright lease toincorporate "certain tech advancements further to IAF customizations leading to more evolved version of F4/4.2"
9. IN wants such standard planes from DRAL India under MII ONLY.
10. IN has also officallyendorsed and recommended France for technologyparticipation and active role of Naval group and Dassault Rafale Air Wing for all it's aircraft carrier - present and future.
11. IN has also recommended suitable studies for basically either complete replacement of older airwings or mixing them up with more potent Rafale Ms to boost their area of operation, roles and responsibilities.
12. The exact phrase and open recommendation from IN for jointprogram and studies "Was not expected" by bureaucrats of MOD and the ministers.
13. IN recommendation follows the open endorsement of IAF and it goes in line with the strategy of NSA Doval thereby opening up the TE MII under a expedient process of decision making.
14. This all was after a two hour long telephonic meeting between naval chiefs from US, IN and France along with representatives of parties with NSA Doval for this deal to come to conclusion.
15. This means the new aircraft carrier from India will have French elements instead of American ones since those are a bit on the heavier side and is costly with operational issues.
16. This Carrier option of EMALs might come from USA if EMALs power surge and maturity of systemscan be augmented by the Naval Group from operational stability perspectives..
17. The Rafale M was already a strong contender for IN and pairing it with this makes it offical choice No.1.
18. This new carrier will have many elements of proposed carrier program of France (as of now frozen but revival plan is underway with Prez Macron looking into it actively).
19. Offically the aircraft carrier talks mentioned about an endorsement from French Prez Macron and a representation of a joint program with India from French citizens ( @halloweene :biggthumpup
20. The TE MII aka Rafale MII with these endorsement will now be pursued independently and SE deal won't get priority treatement over Rafale MII due to any reasons (including finances as FM AJ is on board as well)

FGFA - Russia and other Russian deals

1. FGFA program freeze conveyed to HAL and this will be a huge loss for HAL order books.
2. The contours of FGFA deal is being studied for a graceful exit for both sides.
3. It seems that this will either be cut down PAKFA Stage 2 off the shelf procurement post 2022+ timeline or turned into a different deal altogether.
4. Russia had linked FGFA with S400 and it's 450MKI version evolution withPrometheus HTK components but India has resisted a lot as of now.
5. Russia has indicated now about linking S450MKI with N Sub lease deal.
6. India requested for Yasen Class beyond the Akula 2 and Russia has said no to advanced class sub lease and will not lease anything above Akula 2 class of what India was leased already
7. There is a deep crisis with US inspectionbased roles which Russia is not comfortable with at all.
8. There is a expectation that further roadblocks will be cropping for closing MKI Super upgrade program with the Russian Sukhoi unable to revert back on IAF pointsespecially on Airframe optimization for RCS reducation perspective with usage of advanced materials and increasing payload with better engines.
9. The new UL-BVR program is also not reverted for the so called Super Upgrade.
10. IAF has red flagged this concerns to MOD in it's reports.

Israel

1. Israel's name will againcome to the limelightsoon with firmed up deals in missile defence and offence systems.
2. In a rare occurrence PM Netanyahu had promised PM Modi technology for Missile Guidance systems when PM Modi visited Israel
3. These guidancesystems will help everything from missiles to drones to SAMs.
4. These are to be technology transferred to an Indian entity and made under MII and available for all indigenous, Joint developed and 3rd party systems which are built in India.
5. Actions taken by Israeli MIC indicates that PM Netanyahu is living up to his promise for close friend PM Modi.
6. It's also known that French connection to LCA systems and DRAL to ecosystems has jolted the Israelis.
7. With LCA systems potentially now with proposed French solutions, Israelis have realised that Price hiking confirmed 200+ 2052 orders is now up in dust completely. And so also WVR and BVR missiles tongo with it.

USA F16

1. F16 is still on top in that MII deal and it can only be dethroned if F35 ETA turns out to be more than 10-15 years. (Due to revoking of.priority transfer by moody POTUS)
2. USA still is seeking active mediatory role of India in Afghanistan and Afganistan has also asked India to consider this actively.
3. This has made the planners look for options which can go well with India's stance so far about Afganistan.
4. A small window in next 60 days has opened up and it's there for a deal for the F16 to be signed but a big wig from Sweden is also said to arrive during that window to try and bat for the Gripen.
5. Since the Swedish person has dual loyalties with the US and Sweden he is reported to tell the DM that the F16 deal is difficult to be done because it has a lot of strings attached but if it does happen Sweden will be happy but its growth is limited for future.
6. He is also to convey that if F16 deal does not happen india can still have Gripen which has more ability and can grow in accordance with skill and tech.
7. He will also propose a 3-5 year trial period for "assembly ckd" version of Gripen E in Adani JV plant before full shift to MII.
8. His contention is localisation should happen only post 5 years and use first 5 years of CKD to smoothen out assembling infrastructure.
9. He has already been conveyed that India wants localisation from Day 1 but Saab has indicated it's inability to do so for various reasons including Adani having no experience at all in aircraft component making.
10. MOD has conveyed to look at DRAL example which Saab andSweden not wanting to follow for commerical reasons.

 

[Tactical Frog]

The MRCBF offer from France included giving a training squadron on lease right now itself for SBTF

What the hell ? No way man. Mathematically we could do that but we won’t . We are not broken Greece yet