Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

I would not fully agree with you,
5th Gen planes are a big leap in terms of technology and also price.
5th Gen planes will be expensive to buy use and maintain. Though the engines might be more fuel efficient, but the cost of maintenance itself would counter the benefit of better fuel efficiency. So using such expensive plane for daily CAP will also become expensive and hence effect the budget, But on other hand 4th gen planes will be cheaper to buy, use and maintain, They would not be able to compete directly with a 5th gen plane in terms of capability, but the 5th gen plane cannot compete with 4th gen plane in terms of cost savings. So there might be a trend where the the 4th gen and drones will see a more regular use on the fact that they are economical to use and fly. Since IAF has a budget, so it makes more sense to have a good combination of 4th Gen and 5th gen planes where 4th Gen are flown well past their suggested flying hours and 5th Gen plane flown well within their suggested flying hours a year.

IAF has gone net centric a long time back and its combat jet will interoperate along with other aircrafts such as awacs/AEW&CS in high threat environments. Besides it's integrated with Brahmos ALCM. It's a fearsome and lethal combination. It will create havoc in the enemy camp.
Nowadays most of the intelligent airforces of the world do not import large amount of expensive fourth generation combat jets because they will be facing obsolescence soon.

 

[Armand2REP]

Are you serious? It isnt survivable in high threat environment? Please do share how you know this? Only because Su-30 MKI does not have MAWS? Do remember that in exercise in India Rafale was beaten hands down by Indian Su-30 MKI in WVR exercises, for BVR the Indian missiles were allowed to be simulated for the shorter range than the actual ones. So how exactly would Rafale be suvivable and Su-30 MKI not?

Of course I am serious. Every exercise MKI partakes it gets slaughtered in BVR and by SAMs. Garuda V results were never known so you must be talking about the claims against Eurofighter which were rejected by the British pilots. MKI isn't survivable because it has RCS bigger than a bus, shines a spotlight of a radar telling all of its enemies where it is, has a deficient RWR and no MAWs. The results of Red Flag clearly demonstrated its lack of survivability in the strike role being slaughtered by outdated SAM systems.

Do remember a fact that when the Russians entered Syria with Su-30 SM which are the Russian equivalent of Su-30 MKI, the French ensured that the Rafale kept out of the way, I mean just diverted their area of operations.

Is that supposed to mean something?

Effectivity of Russian weapons, and for that we take the Syrian conflict, more than a year the French were conducting strikes in Syria, even to take revenge for Paris attacks, but they were not able to have any breaktrhough, as if the French air force was conducting token strikes against IS using their formidable Rafale, but within 6 months of Russia entering the fray, the situation in Syria changed so much so that with a 6 months IS was losing material, men and area that it occupied,. This is a classic example where both the French plane Rafale and the Russian planes were involved.

Russia hasn't been doing much of anything against ISIS. They have been focusing on the FSA. The lack of progress has less to do with airstrikes and more on the inefficiency of US lead Iraqi Security Forces.

Lastly try not to come with BS of Strike plane., Let us analyse something, since Rafale is an MRCA and can handle strike better, that should mean that each time Su-30 MKI meets Rafale the Rafale would be dead duck correct?

Why would it mean that? Rafale is omni-role, MKI is not.

With the new developments in A2G missiles any capable plane can be a strike plane, it has to be fitted with the right avionics, the days of getting close and personal with the target are gone and that is what the Stand off missile brings. If Rafale is so excellent, why did France have to spend so much money for SCALP? They could have better used that money in developing better bombs as Rafale can deliver them being a Strike plane. no?

Because SCALP extends the strike range by 500km and completes it strategic bomber requirements. If Rafale was so bad why would it forgo using ARMs an instead use AASM for SEAD? It is that good is why.

The question should be if the existing aircraft in IAF handle deep strikes? Su-30 MKI and MiG-29 UPG both can and that too with excellence. The only thing rafale brings is its overated SPECTRA which only the French pilots claim to be excellent. despite using SPECTRA, Syrian, Russian and Libyan radars were able to track French planes.

MiG-29 doesn't have the range for deep strike. MKI has the range but it would be detected and intercepted before it got anywhere close to its target. Even if you used large numbers of aircraft in a strike package it would still be highly vulnerable to SAMs as demonstrated at Red Flag. Rafale in the same exercise didn't lose a single aircraft on its strike missions.

So what IAF needs urgently is 4 squadrons of Su-57 MKI and maybe more than 400 Tejas Mk 1A and Mk2 to make up the numbers needed for CAPs.

According to the IAF the Su-57 suffers from 43 critical deficiencies which is why it is unable to recommend its purchase and instead recommends further purchase of Rafale.

 

[TPFscopes]

What do you mean by frontal RCS? When a plane flies on the air, what is first visible is the bottom of the plane, isn't it? How is it possible to look in front of a plane moving at 10000 feet? Unless we are speaking of AEWACS detection where the AEWACS plane is flying at the same height as the incoming plane

When two opponents are in air opposite to each other than they can access its opponent's front cross section only. Like the below image in which su-35 is infront of some western jets.

Some comparisons of Frontal RCS of jets.

In the below pic, it shows F-22 and T-50 from two different angles and at both angles RCS will be different.

The frontal RCS is always minimum for any kind of aircraft that is why every OEM shares it to create a havoc in marketing field.

Is there any queries about RCS (front) ?

 

[WolfPack86]

Dassault CEO confirms more orders for Rafale

The chief executive of Dassault Aviation on Tuesday said the company was still in discussions with India over the possible purchase of additional twin-engine Rafale fighter jets, on top of the 36 India ordered in 2016.

Eric Trappier said that a separate tender by India for a single-engine fighter jet was independent of the Rafale order and would not impact negotiations.

“These are different projects,” Trappier said on the sidelines of the University of Defense in Toulon. “We're talking about additional jets. Nothing is decided, but we're not going to stop at 36.”
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TejasMrca/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[Vijyes]

When two opponents are in air opposite to each other than they can access its opponent's front cross section only. Like the below image in which su-35 is infront of some western jets.

Some comparisons of Frontal RCS of jets.

In the below pic, it shows F-22 and T-50 from two different angles and at both angles RCS will be different.

The frontal RCS is always minimum for any kind of aircraft that is why every OEM shares it to create a havoc in marketing field.

Is there any queries about RCS (front) ?

Oh, I see. That is what I was suspicious about. This simply means that F22 can be easily spotted from the ground based radar if it is flying at high altitude or when flying at a low altitude by an AEWACS plane (generally 30000-35000 feet altitude).

The stealth ends up becoming a scam or a marketing stunt. The VLO actually becomes detectable as the RCS increases drastically when viewing from either top or bottom.

 

[Khagesh]

Of course I am serious. Every exercise MKI partakes it gets slaughtered in BVR and by SAMs. Garuda V results were never known so you must be talking about the claims against Eurofighter which were rejected by the British pilots. MKI isn't survivable because it has RCS bigger than a bus, shines a spotlight of a radar telling all of its enemies where it is, has a deficient RWR and no MAWs. The results of Red Flag clearly demonstrated its lack of survivability in the strike role being slaughtered by outdated SAM systems.

Red Flag missions for Su-30MKI were for escorting the Jaguars etc. BTW if Jaguars can do it then so can Su-30MKI. In fact Jaguars and Su-30MKIs are used for very long duration (10 hour) plus practice missions flying from Jorhat to Rajasthan and Andaman to Jammu kind of missions. And obviously for strike missions. And also the Jaguars are known to be very punishing in these long duration missions to the pilot comfort.

Is that supposed to mean something?

Toto, I've got a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore.

Even if you used large numbers of aircraft in a strike package it would still be highly vulnerable to SAMs as demonstrated at Red Flag. Rafale in the same exercise didn't lose a single aircraft on its strike missions.

Did the IAF use something like this in Red Flag:

According to the IAF the Su-57 suffers from 43 critical deficiencies which is why it is unable to recommend its purchase and instead recommends further purchase of Rafale.

Bhai, IAF par hum to vishwas karte nahi tum foreigners to bada hai !!

I am sure there must be a reason for both.

 

[TPFscopes]

Oh, I see. That is what I was suspicious about. This simply means that F22 can be easily spotted from the ground based radar if it is flying at high altitude or when flying at a low altitude by an AEWACS plane (generally 30000-35000 feet altitude).

The stealth ends up becoming a scam or a marketing stunt. The VLO actually becomes detectable as the RCS increases drastically when viewing from either top or bottom.

Every jet can be detected but range at which it gets detected is the matter of discussion.

Also, no country in the world has 100% space under surveillance, either by groud based radars , aerostat radars or even with AWACS.

Every professional air force precisely plan their missions after having their intel based info about all surveillance systems available in the hostile territory.

 

[Vijyes]

Every jet can be detected but range at which it gets detected is the matter of discussion.

Also, no country in the world has 100% space under surveillance, either by groud based radars , aerostat radars or even with AWACS.

Every professional air force precisely plan their missions after having their intel based info about all surveillance systems available in the hostile territory.

Isn't it possible to have 100% of borders with a hundred kilometres from borders in case of mountains under surveillance? If enemy can't enter the border that is enough. Isn't it?

 

[TPFscopes]

Isn't it possible to have 100% of borders with a hundred kilometres from borders in case of mountains under surveillance? If enemy can't enter the border that is enough. Isn't it?

It is only feasible with the small countries. Till now , only Israel has radar sealed borders (according to me).
Radars require very high maintenance and high procurement costs that is why it is not possible for all countries to have 100% border areas and remaining areas under radar surveillance.

 

[Scarface]

According to various sources at Dassault over the years the Rafale is 0.3m^2 clean, 0.5m^2 with 3X CFTs, 4X Mica, 2X Scalp. The CFTs are RAM coated. Maybe AASM will make it spike higher, but not by much.

Highly Unlikely,
I've seen the figures for clean config Rafale and 0.3 is correct,
But with that combat load 0.5 is nearly impossible

MoD officials say it is 20, that makes it 20. There was never an RCS reduction programme for it like the Su-35.

I know where that figure is from, it's was in an MoD or Parliamentary report, but that RCS was for an Su-30MKI with relevant combat load not clean, the clean RCS of MKI is about 5m^2

Dassault CEO confirms more orders for Rafale

The chief executive of Dassault Aviation on Tuesday said the company was still in discussions with India over the possible purchase of additional twin-engine Rafale fighter jets, on top of the 36 India ordered in 2016.

Eric Trappier said that a separate tender by India for a single-engine fighter jet was independent of the Rafale order and would not impact negotiations.

“These are different projects,” Trappier said on the sidelines of the University of Defense in Toulon. “We're talking about additional jets. Nothing is decided, but we're not going to stop at 36.”
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TejasMrca/photos/?ref=page_internal

Does he ever stop confirming additional sales to India ?

 

[Armand2REP]

Highly Unlikely,
I've seen the figures for clean config Rafale and 0.3 is correct,
But with that combat load 0.5 is nearly impossible

Why? The CFTs are shaped and RAM coated for low visability, same goes for the SCALP. The BVRAAMs are tucked and angled under the fuselage to hide them. Everything about the Rafale design was considering LO technologies in its design without the compromise of performance.

I know where that figure is from, it's was in an MoD or Parliamentary report, but that RCS was for an Su-30MKI with relevant combat load not clean, the clean RCS of MKI is about 5m^2

That is rather impossible when the Su-35 is 3m^2 clean, and that was designed from the ground up to reduce the RCS. MKI will not get these features until the Super 30 upgrade.

 

[Vijyes]

Why? The CFTs are shaped and RAM coated for low visability, same goes for the SCALP. The BVRAAMs are tucked and angled under the fuselage to hide them. Everything about the Rafale design was considering LO technologies in its design without the compromise of performance.



That is rather impossible when the Su-35 is 3m^2 clean, and that was designed from the ground up to reduce the RCS. MKI will not get these features until the Super 30 upgrade.

What are the chances that an enemy aircraft is exactly in the front but not below or above and hence have higher visibility? Naturally, if Rafale is flying at 30k feet, enemy F16 may be flying at 15k feet and have a upwards vision of under the rafale, rather than frontal RCS

 

[Armand2REP]

Red Flag missions for Su-30MKI were for escorting the Jaguars etc. BTW if Jaguars can do it then so can Su-30MKI. In fact Jaguars and Su-30MKIs are used for very long duration (10 hour) plus practice missions flying from Jorhat to Rajasthan and Andaman to Jammu kind of missions. And obviously for strike missions. And also the Jaguars are known to be very punishing in these long duration missions to the pilot comfort.

Actually neither the MiG-29 nor the Su-30MKI can conduct terrain hugging avoidance flight profiles. Their air-frames cannot withstand the stress at those tolerances. Flying high and burning the clouds with a powerful radar is much different than flying at tree-top level and navigating difficult terrain and flight modes.

Did the IAF use something like Siva in Red Flag:

Siva is a HADF pod, not a jammer and is used for cueing anti-radiation missiles. I cannot find anything on its induction into the IAF as it was supposed to go with NGRAM, as of yet not inducted.

 

[Kchontha]

Is Brahmos ALCM really ready? I thought it was yet to be finalised. 4th generation will never get old,especially 4.5 generation. 5th generation planes have high maintenance, high operating cost, lower range per unit fuel, lower payload (due to internal weapons), chances of stealth waning off if the coating of RAM wears off in first few sorties due to air friction. 5th generation has many defects and hence 4th and 4.5 generation planes will always be in demand.

Brahmos ALCM is readying itself to be delivered to IAF soon. I never said about 4th or 4.5 Gen planes getting old but I did advice about not to import huge number of expensive 4th/4.5 Gen planes by wasting taxpayers money instead to spend it on strengthening indegenous combat jets manufacturing base.

I would not fully agree with you,
5th Gen planes are a big leap in terms of technology and also price.
5th Gen planes will be expensive to buy use and maintain. Though the engines might be more fuel efficient, but the cost of maintenance itself would counter the benefit of better fuel efficiency. So using such expensive plane for daily CAP will also become expensive and hence effect the budget, But on other hand 4th gen planes will be cheaper to buy, use and maintain, They would not be able to compete directly with a 5th gen plane in terms of capability, but the 5th gen plane cannot compete with 4th gen plane in terms of cost savings. So there might be a trend where the the 4th gen and drones will see a more regular use on the fact that they are economical to use and fly. Since IAF has a budget, so it makes more sense to have a good combination of 4th Gen and 5th gen planes where 4th Gen are flown well past their suggested flying hours and 5th Gen plane flown well within their suggested flying hours a year.

VMT for partially agreeing with me. Totally agreed with all the points put forth on pros and cons of 4th and fifth gen planes. It is also very clear that I am an ardent supporter of indegenous effort not a fan boy of foreign made 4th or fifth gen ACs.

 

[Armand2REP]

What are the chances that an enemy aircraft is exactly in the front but not below or above and hence have higher visibility? Naturally, if Rafale is flying at 30k feet, enemy F16 may be flying at 15k feet and have a upwards vision of under the rafale, rather than frontal RCS

Not very high, that is not the way a Rafale on a strike mission is employed. The flight profile is to hit the deck as soon as it hits contested airspace to make it stealthy. If it is an air superiority mission it will have a Meteor load-out and would detect the F-16 well before it was detected and kill the Paki pilot before he knew what hit him. The look-down shoot-down capabilities of French radars is considered among the best in the world. It would only be a poor flight-plan that ever put one in that position. Even if it did it is still stealthier than an old Block 50 F-16 from the top down that is looking up at a Rafale.

 

[airtel]

.

Sukhoi 30 mki is using Israeli EL/L-8222 jamming Pod .....

soon it Will be replaced by Indian Jamming Pod in super sukhoi Upgrades .

 

[Armand2REP]

The problem with Russia's after-thought to multi-role capabilities of its aircraft is that it has to carry a jamming pod, an HDAF pod, a data link pod, and a targeting pod in order to do what Rafale can do with one or even no pods. It is a waste of valuable space.

 

[Scarface]

Why? The CFTs are shaped and RAM coated for low visability, same goes for the SCALP. The BVRAAMs are tucked and angled under the fuselage to hide them. Everything about the Rafale design was considering LO technologies in its design without the compromise of performance.



That is rather impossible when the Su-35 is 3m^2 clean, and that was designed from the ground up to reduce the RCS. MKI will not get these features until the Super 30 upgrade.

All those RCS reduction measures can go only so far, with wing pylons alone that RCS would go up to 0.5m^2, with 2 cruise missiles of approx. RCS 0.1m2 , even if we assume the RCS will increase linearly (Which it won't) the RCS would go comfortably to 1m^2

Now as to why the RCS increases not just linearly is because one of the biggest factors in reducing the RCS is purpose shaping which more often than not hampers Aerodynamic performance and hence cannot be implemented more than a certain extent in AAMs and ALCMs which means radar return from those external munitions also bounces off the aircraft at awkward angles which may cause additional return and increase RCS

 

[Flame Thrower]

Siva is a HADF pod, not a jammer and is used for cueing anti-radiation missiles. I cannot find anything on its induction into the IAF as it was supposed to go with NGRAM, as of yet not inducted.

To my knowledge, Siva pod is our version of SAP 518 jamming pods.

They are DFRM jamming pods. IAF had tested SAP 518, though Pods were good at at jamming, they came at a cost of maneuverability. IAF asked DRDO to sort the issue. Thus Siva pods are created.

If I remember correctly, info on Siva pods surfaced back in AI 2017, 90% of the job is done and they don't come at the cost of maneuverability. IAF is more than happy with the progress of Siva pods.

I don't know if there is a link between NGARM and Siva pods.

 

[Khagesh]

I don't know if there is a link between NGARM and Siva pods.

SIVA HADF pod is the High Accuracy Direction Finder meant for Destruction of Enemy Air Defence missions.