Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

o.5m^2 ?? with all these weapons & fuel tanks ?

You are wrong ...... You should read the comments of @StealthFlanker he has explained all the Technical Data of Rafale .

According to various sources at Dassault over the years the Rafale is 0.3m^2 clean, 0.5m^2 with 3X CFTs, 4X Mica, 2X Scalp. The CFTs are RAM coated. Maybe AASM will make it spike higher, but not by much.

 

[Kchontha]

Rafale and Su30mki will be the two complementary aircrafts for IAF rather than opposing to each other as everybody is talking about. Both will be operating together when the former arrives in india in near fiture and both will be the two sides of a same coin. The former will be contemplative and the later will be more dynamic side. Each sides has a specific role to cater to. That means that rafale is more like a sniper, a silent killer i.e. more suitable for SEAD and DEAD mission while su30mki with its longer leg and air superiority capability will do the escort duty and if necessary it can also do secondary SEAD and DEAD mission with its Brahmos alcm. This combo will be devastating for the enemy camps at the moment. When these combat jets are obsolete their roles can be supplemented or replaced by fifth gen combat jets such as fgfa and AMCA.

 

[Vijyes]

Quantity has a quality of it's own , said by a communist dictator who was well renowned to have had poor strategic knowledge and decision making , who almost lost his capital to those fools who prefer quality while they were stretched thin on multiple fronts , even though he had to rely on material support from his partners in war via Lend Lease program despite having the quality of quantity

Anyone using that argument isn't worth your time

Who said what is not as important as what is true.

We should understand that quality has a big role in determining war. But quantity also offers a massive assistance. The strategy and morale factors should also be considered. All if these combined, one can win. I will give 2 examples:

First, arabs were retards who couldn't win against Israel in 1948 when everyone including USA had declared that Israel is as good as dead. But, USSR agreed to give small arms to Israel via Czechoslovakia to some extent, even though they too believed that israel was in a perilous position. The opponents had vastly superior numbers, equipments and organised professional army. Israel had 1 gun per 2 soldiers, a few repaired and refurbished armoured vehicles and untrained militia who were mainly refugees from concentration camps.

Second, Germany USSR war in ww2. Stalin sacrificed 20% of Russian population to defeat Germany and succeeded despite being industrially backwards, most of farmlands being devastated and stalin being a poor strategist.

These 2 examples prove that quality of various aspects matter - technology, numbers, psychology (strategy and morale). It is the combination of all the three that works to win a war

1. Mig-21 can't share cutting edge in BVR over even Su-30MKI. fixing a BVRAAM on pylon can't make any jet suitable for BVR Combat. You need BVR target and tracking.
If you cannot see, you cannot kill.

2. We prefer more value to our Pilots rather than any machine. Pilots are the most valuable asset for IAF. So, we can't put them on risk to fulfill "QUANTITY HAS ITS OWN QUALITY" criteria.

3. For you comparison , I have one more example which suits it most, 10 desi katta/Tamancha can't outperform a M4 carbine or even an INSAS

 

[Vijyes]

Rafale and Su30mki will be the two complementary aircrafts for IAF rather than opposing to each other as everybody is talking about. Both will be operating together when the former arrives in india in near fiture and both will be the two sides of a same coin. The former will be contemplative and the later will be more dynamic side. Each sides has a specific role to cater to. That means that rafale is more like a sniper, a silent killer i.e. more suitable for SEAD and DEAD mission while su30mki with its longer leg and air superiority capability will do the escort duty and if necessary it can also do secondary SEAD and DEAD mission with its Brahmos alcm. This combo will be devastating for the enemy camps at the moment. When these combat jets are obsolete their roles can be supplemented or replaced by fifth gen combat jets such as fgfa and AMCA.

Rafale is just this - a deal for FOC of Kaveri engine. If there was no ToT, rafale is junk.

The value of rafale is just 10 ton of scrap metal. The real value is in the offsets.

 

[smestarz]

You are off about the price tag of Su-30 MKI by about 13 million. I am interested in an official source quoting price of US$ 68 million please

As per some quotes online, Rafale cost her hour is roughly around US$ 16000 per hour and that of Su-30 MKI is near about that.

Usually the cost of parts consumed are roughly 5% per year which if we look at the difference will be higher for Rafale since Rafale is much more expensive, and thus if you calculate the difference in cost of spares will be US$ 1 million a year, so for a fleet of 36 it would be difference of 36 million a year.,

About intense conflict, where are you getting your nos from? The 3 sorties could be because Su-30 MKI carries more fuel and hence and stay on station longer time than Rafale which for the same would have to carry drop tanks instead of weapons load. So a fully armed Su-30 MKI can go longer distance or be on station for longer time as opposed to Rafale which for the same has to sacrifice useful weapons load for drop tanks.
Do note that IAF has participated in Red flag and there was no issue with Su-30 MKI.

How many air forces actually go for overhauling during war time? Overhauling is usually not done during conflict but well before or after confict so that the availability is higher.

About Engines, It takes more time to maintain Su-30 MKI engine, than Rafale, And Su-30 MKI comes with more replacement engines as per the agreement with Russia, Rafale does not come with more than one extra engine.

1. Vanilla price tags of Su-30MKI is nearly 68 Million dollars instead of 56 MN USD.
2. Rafale's per flight hour cost is almost half of what Su-30MKI has, this means Rafale is very cheap to conduct any operation. Which means Rafale will be cheaper than Su-30MKI in its lifetime.
3. During the time of intense conflict, you need more and more active sorties for deterrence. For this Rafale can do 5 active sorties in a day where as Su-30MKI can only do max 3.
3. Rafales overhaul time is almost 1/3 of What Su-30MKI has. It means fighter jet will be ready of more sorties which is the intense requirement during conflict.
4. To change an engine on Su-30MKI require about 3 to 4 hours whereas due to Rafale's modular design it requires nearly half an hour to do so....

Most important when Dassault ink the deal with 50% offset , it itself help India in various ways.

 

[Kay]

Rafale is just this - a deal for FOC of Kaveri engine. If there was no ToT, rafale is junk.

The value of rafale is just 10 ton of scrap metal. The real value is in the offsets.

That is surely exaggeration. Rafale is certainly a good plane, but in India's context, the offsets are more important than the plane itself.

 

[smestarz]

And I quoted Parrikar about the price of Su-30 MKI in 2014 which was about 55 million a piece

Where do you find Mr. Parrikar in my last post?
I only shared the cost breakdown of Rafale deal. That's it....

 

[smestarz]

You give incredible examples, lets try to put say 10 people on 1 superbike and 10 people on 10 mopeds and lets see which reaches, shall we? Try not to give some "incredible" examples which have limitations.
If its simple about speed (like you did put the example of mopeds and super bikes) then both are competetitive (MiG-21 and Su-30 MKI) both have an excellent straight line speed, MiG-21 was called a rocket with pilot on it.
MiG-21 was designed and used as short range plane with ability to carry less war load on 4 pylons, usually limited to 4 A2A missiles on other hand Su-30 MKI was designed and developed as MRCA to handle various roles including deep strike is now possible, but for MiG-21 being small and having fuel and range limitations is mainly an interceptor. So if you want MiG-21 to conduct deep strike, difficult, but on other hand if there is situation where su-30 MKI is to be intercepted by 10 MiG-21 then there is very much the possibility that Su-30 MKI would be intercepted, one should not overlook that quantity is also a very important attribute.

I disagree with you for this claim.
Even 10 mopeds can't match 1 Superbike.

 

[smestarz]

Su-30 MKI suddenly became 20 ? That should confirm the inflation in France,.
The notabile sources put RCS of Su-30 MKI from 4-10 m^2 depending on source and this RCS is all aspect RCS,
Rafales RCS is frontal RCS and not all aspect RCS.

0.5m^2, about 40X less than a clean MKI at 20m^2.

 

[smestarz]

Are the French using CFTs on their Rafales operationally?

Drop tanks can be dropped, CFTs cannot. Rafale can carry either.

 

[smestarz]

Tejas has advantage of being VLO due to its size and also carbon fibre used in its construction,
Tejas if armed with long range missiles can be used to target at longer ranges using targeting info from Su-30 MKI

iaf must have done it ready....rafale still not available....
but surely against mki...afterall china has planty of su30 copies....

 

[smestarz]

For the IAF the planes are more important and Offsets are part of the package
But for the govt and industry, the offsets being in more advantage of possible future self reliance and hence bigger markets

That is surely exaggeration. Rafale is certainly a good plane, but in India's context, the offsets are more important than the plane itself.

 

[sthf]

@TPFscopes We are talking about flyaway prices not the life cycle costs or the rationale behind the purchase. The disagreement was that what is the flyaway price of Rafale vis a vis MKI and now we know that MKI indeed costs less than half of a Rafale.

I think this concludes the conversation. Good Day.

 

[Bahamut]

o.5m^2 ?? with all these weapons & fuel tanks ?

With all weapons it will have a rcs close to 1m^2 in front. The average will be far higher, close to 4-6m^2.

 

[TPFscopes]

And I quoted Parrikar about the price of Su-30 MKI in 2014 which was about 55 million a piece

Will you please share the source. I think you are referrin to the BS report with Title "Rafale in storm clouds, Parrikar says IAF can make do with Sukhoi-30s" in which the price was stated by media, not by parrikar

In 2007, the unit cost of Su-30MKI was 41 million USD
In 2014, the unit price of Su-30MKI was 61 million USD
In June 2017, HAL said it has recent orders of 61,000 INR which includes 73 ALH ($5.4 miilion each ) + 35 Su-30MKI , 5 Do-228 (@ $25.83 million with 5 year service package , standalone price is $17.9 million each) , 179 LCH (@ $20.2 million including package , standalone price is nearly 14 million each )
Hence The calculations limits the price of Su-30MKI to approx $67-68 million each.

Note: Figures may slightly vary but there will be no vast difference from original. I have the official doc with the price tag of these equipment but that was saved in my Home PC ,right now I'm out of state but will share it as soon as I return back...
@sthf

Such figure are also resembles the report:

Officially, India’s Sukhoi-30 MKI fleet is currently pegged at 272 (including aircraft under order) but the number will clearly increase as HAL cranks up production. It is an impressive strength for such a high-end and expensive ($67 million to $79 million) weapons platform.

https://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/06/27/sukhoi-30mki_is_indias_fallback_fighter_36263

IAF chief Arup Raha was fairly buttonholed at Yelahanka into saying, “There’s M-MRCA and there’s Sukhoi-30. The requirements are slightly different. And they have their own capabilities. They compliment each other but do not replace each other.”

Parrikar: “Sukhoi-30 choice is always there. What I mean to say is: upgrade the Sukhoi-30, make it more capable.”

https://www.livefistdefence.com/2015/03/rafale-vs-su-30mki-new-indian-dogfight.html

About intense conflict, where are you getting your nos from? The 3 sorties could be because Su-30 MKI carries more fuel and hence and stay on station longer time than Rafale which for the same would have to carry drop tanks instead of weapons load.

please go through this:

MoD officials cite Dassault’s claim that the Rafale’s quick “turnaround time”, or the time between two sorties, allows each fighter to do five operational sorties each day. While this claim would need verification during actual usage, the IAF has determined during trials that the Rafale’s engine can be replaced in just 30 minutes, compared to eight hours for replacing a Sukhoi-30MKI engine.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...al-for-36-rafale-fighters-116092301019_1.html

So a fully armed Su-30 MKI can go longer distance or be on station for longer time as opposed to Rafale which for the same has to sacrifice useful weapons load for drop tanks.

Su-30MKI has max weapon load of 17,000 lbs whereas Rafale has 12800 lbs , along with this Rafale can goto 3300km whereas Su-MKI can go upto 3000km.

How many air forces actually go for overhauling during war time? Overhauling is usually not done during conflict but well before or after confict so that the availability is higher.

All overhauling and servicing are the regular process. No professional Air Force stop it service section during conflict.


So, Finally I want to say that we can't claim any fighter jet superior to each other. Both have specialties of their own.
Both fighters are compliment to each other and will not going to replace each other.[/QUOTE]

 

[TPFscopes]

lets try to put say 10 people on 1 superbike and 10 people on 10 mopeds

fighter jets are intended to fight the war but you want to use them to transport more and more persons.
As I said before, Pilots are the most precious asset of IAF and any other professional air force that is why everybody want Aircrafts without pilots onboard.

Su-30 MKI was designed and developed as MRCA

Su-30MKI was designed and developed as Heavy weight Air superiority Fighter, other roles are added as secondary.

So if you want MiG-21 to conduct deep strike, difficult, but on other hand if there is situation where su-30 MKI is to be intercepted by 10 MiG-21 then there is very much the possibility that Su-30 MKI would be intercepted, one should not overlook that quantity is also a very important attribute.

Only two Rafales or even Su-30MKIs can take down all 10 Mig-21s without any hiccups.
We follows the FIRST SIGHT, FIRST SHOOT law.

As both Rafale & Su-30MKI can detect all 10 Migs and shot down with their BVRAAMs where as Migs have to come close enough to detect both Sukhoi or Rafale.

.

 

[Vijyes]

fighter jets are intended to fight the war but you want to use them to transport more and more persons.
As I said before, Pilots are the most precious asset of IAF and any other professional air force that is why everybody want Aircrafts without pilots onboard.

Su-30MKI was designed and developed as Heavy weight Air superiority Fighter, other roles are added as secondary.

Only two Rafales or even Su-30MKIs can take down all 10 Mig-21s without any hiccups.
We follows the FIRST SIGHT, FIRST SHOOT law.

As both Rafale & Su-30MKI can detect all 10 Migs and shot down with their BVRAAMs where as Migs have to come close enough to detect both Sukhoi or Rafale.

.

First, MiG21 can also have the same AESA radar as Tejas is having. So, with that AESA radar and avionics, MiG21 can shoot down MKI or Rafale from the same distance as a rafale or MKI with the same radar.

Now, my point here is that with same avionics, weapons and radars, MiG21 in larger quantities is better than MKI/Rafale in smaller quantities. 5 MiG21 vs 1 MKI with same radar, MiG21 wins.

If MiG21 is replaced by carbon composite and slightly different airframe and 82kN engines of RD33 type, they will be even better. So, even a modified MiG21 with a 82kN engine can be done by India with advanced avionics and radars developed for Tejas. Such a modified plane but within existing technology of India, if mass produced, can overwhelm MKI/Rafale by sheer numbers. 5 upgraded MiG21 vs 1 MKI and MKI dies.

 

[TPFscopes]

First, MiG21 can also have the same AESA radar as Tejas is having. So, with that AESA radar and avionics, MiG21 can shoot down MKI or Rafale from the same distance as a rafale or MKI with the same radar.

You are too much speculative person with lot of imaginations.
I will not surprise, If you want RAM coat, RBE2 AESA, DEDIRA suite, hypersonic speed, RCS lower than F22, and bla bla bla bla....:blah::blah::blah:

Now, my point here is that with same avionics, weapons and radars, MiG21 in larger quantities is better than MKI/Rafale in smaller quantities. 5 MiG21 vs 1 MKI with same radar, MiG21 wins.

If you add all the weapon , avionics and equipment same as Rafale , on mig-21 than it will become RAFALE itself with a price tag of RAFALE along with the mission profile and weight class of RAFALE.
Than what is left except the tag "MIG-21"
And when it becomes as costly as RAFALE than why don't we by it with original name i.e. RAFALE

anyways, nice try

 

[Vijyes]

You are too much speculative person with lot of imaginations.
I will not surprise, If you want RAM coat, RBE2 AESA, DEDIRA suite, hypersonic speed, RCS lower than F22, and bla bla bla bla....:blah::blah::blah:

If you add all the weapon , avionics and equipment same as Rafale , on mig-21 than it will become RAFALE itself with a price tag of RAFALE along with the mission profile and weight class of RAFALE.
Than what is left except the tag "MIG-21"
And when it becomes as costly as RAFALE than why don't we by it with original name i.e. RAFALE

anyways, nice try

Nope, the difference is about what we lack - 90kN engine. I am only looking at a plane with Indian engines which we can manufacture on our own and the doctrine of 'QUANTITY HAS ITS OWN QUALITY'.

 

[Khagesh]

What if the Tejas ends up molesting larger planes the way Mig-21 violated the F-15 in Cope India?

Heh heh.


Oh and Mig-21 has a very very restricted constricted pointy nose. LCA is the way it is primarily because it sports a nose bigger than Rafale. And for extremely good reasons.