Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

according to manohar parriker , tejas is as capable as of rafale minus the range and payload....

Politic words only.

Tejas able to reach 11G?
Tejas has a cutting edge electronic suport system like Spectra?
Tejas has OSF?
Tejas can supercruise?
Tejas can land on a carrier?

 

[airtel]

Politic words only.

Tejas able to reach 11G?
Tejas has a cutting edge electronic suport system like Spectra?
Tejas has OSF?
Tejas can supercruise?
Tejas can land on a carrier?

TEJAS is more than enough for Pakistan.....

Supercruise and landing on carrier is not required...... And it will include electronic warfare system and (Irst +ols may be of Italian origin )


It is cheaper to build and cheaper to operate......after including Indian radar and engines, cost will further reduce and we can do mass production and replace all the outdated migs ......

It Can fire bvr missiles and drop bombs and it will be very useful against Pakistan and even China ......

Still It is not comparable to rafale otherwise Indian govt would not have spend money on rafale.

 

[sthf]

Out of 8.87 billion dollars, the Rafale costs only 3.6 billion dollars for each Rafale.

MKI by its very definition is an India specific aircraft. In order to put Rafale on the same pedestal, you add India specific costs to the vanilla airframe. If IAF is buying MKI at nearly Rs 358 crores a unit, it is buying Rafale at the nearly Rs 1000 crores (vanilla + India specific changes). Neither includes weapons or infrastructure expenditure.

So it wouldn't be wrong to say that MKI costs less than half of Rafale.

 

[smestarz]

Who said it was Parrikar and when he was the DM,. I have quoted Parrikar,
What can be more official source than him?

Who said Su-30mki costs the half of Rafale. Many times I cleared the unit price of Rafale by sharing the breakdown structure of Rafale deal.

Out of 8.87 billion dollars, the Rafale costs only 3.6 billion dollars for each Rafale.
Twin seat Rafale have price tag of about 94 Million dollars whereas single seat Rafale Costs about 91 Million dollars each.

 

[smestarz]

So in a way impressed by the Brochure..

Indian test pilots flew all the MMRCA contenders.

And IAF is aware of all developpment efforts in the pipe (F3R of course and more : RCS improvements, new radar modes, new conformal antennas, SAT com, communication improvements....)

 

[Armand2REP]

Who said it was Parrikar and when he was the DM,. I have quoted Parrikar,
What can be more official source than him?

Considering Parriker is quoted as saying Tejas is as capable as Rafale it is rather hard to take him seriously.

 

[Vijyes]

MKI by its very definition is an India specific aircraft. In order to put Rafale on the same pedestal, you add India specific costs to the vanilla airframe. If IAF is buying MKI at nearly Rs 358 crores a unit, it is buying Rafale at the nearly Rs 1000 crores (vanilla + India specific changes). Neither includes weapons or infrastructure expenditure.

So it wouldn't be wrong to say MKI costs less than half of Rafale.

Why compare rafale to MKI? MKI is a direct import while rafale has many precious offsets and ToTs including Kaveri engine. The ToTs cost a lot and is worth the price.

Considering Parriker is quoted as saying Tejas is as capable as Rafale it is rather hard to take him seriously.

Parrikar is not wrong as Mk2 with AESA radar and K10 or F414 engines are as good as rafale except in payload and range. I don't see anything wrong there. Parrikar has repeatedly told that the only drawback of Tejas is its light weight but that is a necessity for low cost requirements of India. It actually makes more sense to distribute payload in various planes as a plane has the risk of getting shot down too. Why waste an expensive plane? It is better to have 2 lightweight planes instead of 1 heavy plane in all cases except where there is a requirement of long range attack. Such roles are quite rare for today's world. The SAMs and communication are really powerful and it is impossible to go in deep without detection. Tejas costs 20% of a Rafale and the cost may decrease to just 5% of rafale (base price of 120 million euros) when mass produced.

 

[smestarz]

True that was a rhetoric,
And to reply to you, Tejas can be developed to reach 11G, most planes have official Gs of 9gs including Rafale and yet when required they can cross this, but that will affect the plane in longer run.


YES it has electronic system with Data fusion, India has its own system

Tejas (as required by IAF) was to replace MiG-21 as interceptor, where it would be flying within the border of india and little into enemy terirtory, and hence use of Radar would be more than by IRST, Later IAF changed its requirement and well IRST can be put on POD, its not difficult,


Why would it require to super cruise? Technically Rafale cannot super cruise with War load, only in clean config.

N-LCA can land on carrier like Rafale M., Can Rafale B or Rafale C land on carrier?

Politic words only.

Tejas able to reach 11G?
Tejas has a cutting edge electronic suport system like Spectra?
Tejas has OSF?
Tejas can supercruise?
Tejas can land on a carrier?

 

[sthf]

Why compare rafale to MKI? MKI is a direct import while rafale has many precious offsets and ToTs including Kaveri engine. The ToTs cost a lot and is worth the price.

A mind boggingly stupid thing to say when the price quoted is of MKI built at HAL Nasik with 75% "Indian" content against almost 100% imported Rafale.

For the "precious offsets", wake me up when Tejas with Kaveri gets inducted into IAF.

 

[Vijyes]

A mind boggingly stupid thing to say when the price quoted is of MKI built at HAL Nasik with 75% "Indian" content against almost 100% imported Rafale.

For the "precious offsets", wake me up when Tejas with Kaveri gets inducted into IAF.

It is necessary to note that neither has rafale been delivered yet. It will start only in 2019. So, wait till any rafale is delivered. I think if Kaveri is not ready by then, rafale will be canceled by India. There is a reason why India insisted that Kaveri be delivered by 2018 itself.

So, let us not get jingoistic about rafale yet. By the way, MKI is 55% Indian by value, not 75%

 

[sthf]

@Vijyes I usually avoid ad hominem as it is generally a sign of a weaker mind but you sir are an exception to the rule.

I have been reading your posts for quite some time and most of them are worth less than a used condom.

Do you have a source that states India will back out of a written agreement with France if functioning Kaveri is not delivered by 2018?

 

[Vijyes]

@Vijyes I usually avoid ad hominem as it is generally a sign of a weaker mind but you sir are an exception to the rule.

I have been reading your posts for quite some time and most of them are worth less than a used condom.

Do you have a source that states India will back out of a written agreement with France if functioning Kaveri is not delivered by 2018?

No one does have any more details of the deal. But, it is obvious that if offsets or any other clause if the deal is broken, entire deal is broken. This is common sense.

By the way, do you have any reasons to buy any imported planes than make them within India? Almost all the planes are minor upgrades of older technology. Can't India make what USA made in 1990? Is USA filled with superhumans?

There is no point arguing about MKI or Rafale. It is Technology acquisition that matters. Since all your comments are about buying end products or making only cheap goods indigenously while buying all critical products as imports, your comments are not just useless but even harmful as it wastes precious time of readers.

Don't discuss about useless matters as we can't know what is useless and what is not without reading and that may waste time.

 

[sthf]

@Vijyes Kindly do not quote/tag me any further. Thanks.

 

[airtel]

MKI now costs over $75 million, and it still doesn't have RWR.

The Su-30MKI is fitted with a tarang radar warning receiver developed by Drdo
..... It lacks missile Approach Warning System .

Drdo is also developing maws.

If they could not develop it then they can buy MILDS-F missile approach warning system from EADS/Cassidian
Or may be from any other country like Israel.

 

[smestarz]

Whats wrong in Tejas being as capable as Rafale? Get them into a dogfight and see what happens,
For range and War load, Rafale has the advantage, but on cost of buying, using and maintaining, Tejas is more cheaper than Rafale. In all honestly we have a plane which is more capable than Rafale which is Su-30 MKI, and we have plane which is little less capable than Rafale, which is Tejas, why exactly did we need Rafale?
Parrikar is not wrong in saying that. But on other note, since Rafale was declared L1, Eric Trappier has been quoted several times stating "the discussions are done the contract will be signed next week ..." and he was saying that for few years, And there was your Defence minister who was quoted doing the same.. So are these the persons to be taken seriously?

Considering Parriker is quoted as saying Tejas is as capable as Rafale it is rather hard to take him seriously.

 

[smestarz]

The French were touting a lot about the time frames and so Indian govt was specific about the time framce given to Safran for ensuring the Kaveri engine is as per the requirement of IAF.
It is actually IAF which is now caught between rock and hard place, IF Kaveri is as per the requirement of IAF, well and good but if the Kaveri engine is not upto the mark, then it wont be accepted and thats problem for Rafale contract. If the IAF accepts an engine which is not upto the mark, they get exposed.

It is necessary to note that neither has rafale been delivered yet. It will start only in 2019. So, wait till any rafale is delivered. I think if Kaveri is not ready by then, rafale will be canceled by India. There is a reason why India insisted that Kaveri be delivered by 2018 itself.

So, let us not get jingoistic about rafale yet. By the way, MKI is 55% Indian by value, not 75%

 

[smestarz]

The GOI has implemented timeframes for the Offsets and also the guarantees are from France. Thus there is not much France can do as it is the one with whom the deal is made not Dassault

@Vijyes I usually avoid ad hominem as it is generally a sign of a weaker mind but you sir are an exception to the rule.

I have been reading your posts for quite some time and most of them are worth less than a used condom.

Do you have a source that states India will back out of a written agreement with France if functioning Kaveri is not delivered by 2018?

 

[Armand2REP]

I guess you missed what he said...

The indigenously manufactured light combat aircraft 'Tejas', which was inducted into the Indian Air Force earlier this year, is as good as the French-made Rafale fighter jet and comparable with other top LCAs across the world, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar said on Saturday.

Nothing about future versions. It completely discredits him as an objective observer.

Parrikar is not wrong in saying that. But on other note, since Rafale was declared L1, Eric Trappier has been quoted several times stating "the discussions are done the contract will be signed next week ..." and he was saying that for few years, And there was your Defence minister who was quoted doing the same.. So are these the persons to be taken seriously?

Eric Tappier had no control over GOI committees. Your argument is non-sequitur.

 

[Armand2REP]

"The Su-30MKI suffers from technical problems in the fly-by-wire systems and radar warning receivers"

https://www.defensenews.com/home/2015/12/21/india-s-auditing-agency-punches-holes-in-russian-sukhoi/

"Large numbers of Su-30MKI are flying with a deficient radar warning receiver, compromising the survivability of the aircraft. In addition, the fly-by-wire system has poor “reliability index” adversely affecting the stability, controllability, flight safety and flight control of these jets."

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/518727/front-line-fighter-su-30.html

The Su-30MKI is fitted with a tarang radar warning receiver developed by Drdo
..... It lacks missile Approach Warning System .

Drdo is also developing maws.

If they could not develop it then they can buy MILDS-F missile approach warning system from EADS/Cassidian
Or may be from any other country like Israel.

 

[airtel]

"The Su-30MKI suffers from technical problems in the fly-by-wire systems and radar warning receivers"

https://www.defensenews.com/home/2015/12/21/india-s-auditing-agency-punches-holes-in-russian-sukhoi/

"Large numbers of Su-30MKI are flying with a deficient radar warning receiver, compromising the survivability of the aircraft. In addition, the fly-by-wire system has poor “reliability index” adversely affecting the stability, controllability, flight safety and flight control of these jets."

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/518727/front-line-fighter-su-30.html

these are the media hit Job ...........
Btw these are Old jets and need to be Upgraded there are new Improved Version of RWR , Tarang Mk-2 .
all the other shortcomings will be ratified in Super Sukhoi Upgrades .