Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

its a unfare comparision that when we quote mki cost , we talk about in terms of in house build cost at hal...475 cr
but when we quote rafale , we talk about its flyaway cost....
everybody doing this...
its a unfare comparision..
su30 will cost 350cr if bought from russia as agsinst 700cr of rafale in flyaway condition from france....
rafale's inhouse build cost still to be discovered...

It actually costs that much fly away, the 350 crore isn't including the cost of 3rd party components.

 

[Armand2REP]

its all depends upon you , how you like to see tejas....
according to manohar parriker , tejas is as capable as of rafale minus the range and payload....

blogs , articles or ministry ?
who one belives , is one's own choice...

I can believe the range of Tejas is not great enough to interdict into China but it is plenty to deal with Pakistan. We are not fighting a defensive war, we take it to the enemy.

 

[square]

It actually costs that much fly away, the 350 crore isn't including the cost of 3rd party components.

same is the case of helicopter deal of ka226.......it costing us more if to be build in india.....ka226 also cantain many 3rd party components. which russia imports....

 

[Kchontha]

@BON PLAN. In spite of criticism of LM defition of a fifth genetation combat jet, all supercruising and agile combat jets such as Rafales, su35 and gripen ng can't be referred to as fifth generation one as they are a few fraction of generation and technolpgy behind. However, nobody doubt f35 as one because it is a fraction ahead from 4+++ gen Rafales, su35 and gripen ng etc in terms of generation and technology. Besides Russians have their own definition of fifth gen combat jets in the form of t50/su57 and in terms of supermaneuverability, supercruising and stealth. Japanese, Indian, south Korean, Chinese etc are also struggling to define their own version of fifth generation combat aircraft.
Not everybody is a great fan f35 and your truely is one of them. Neither am I supporter of importing very costly western combat jet such as rafales, f16s and gripen etc in large number in order to arrest dwindling number of jets due to retirement or yet to be retired cold era soviet MiGs. Besides diverting funds necessary for indegenous efforts such as amca and AF tejas mk2, this will be unnecessary and needless spending of taxpayers money. A few number (less than 50) of these ACs can be bought for specific roles along with its technology but these couldn't be the backbone IAF. A very capable 4+++ gen Tejas will be the backbone.

 

[smestarz]

Unfortunately that is not a govt source.
Parrikar had stated in parliament end 2014 about the cost per plane coming to 55 million (Rs 358 crore)
It also says that this price is half the price of Rafale unit cost.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...n-make-do-with-sukhoi-30s-114123100706_1.html

In your link the author has not quoted the source of price and in the link that I posted, its quoted by then Defence minister of india

"The second issue is price, which began at $30 million but rose to $75 million each."

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/india-ordering-modernizing-su-30mkis-05852/

 

[smestarz]

Rs 358 crore includes the total price including 3rd party avionics.

It actually costs that much fly away, the 350 crore isn't including the cost of 3rd party components.

 

[Armand2REP]

Unfortunately that is not a govt source.
Parrikar had stated in parliament end 2014 about the cost per plane coming to 55 million (Rs 358 crore)
It also says that this price is half the price of Rafale unit cost.

http://www.business-standard.com/ar...n-make-do-with-sukhoi-30s-114123100706_1.html

In your link the author has not quoted the source of price and in the link that I posted, its quoted by then Defence minister of india

It says the "production line" is building them at 358 crore. That does not include 3rd party components. The current flyaway is over $75 million. If it was only $55 million IAF would not be complaining about how expensive they are.

 

[Vcfdg]

I am curious. At present kaveri is giving 52 kn dry and full after burn 81 kn which is better than engine of 50 kn dry and 75 kn wet. Why can't we create a mrca jet like Rafel? I guess it will full fill the iaf and navy requirements early. it could have uttam radar, indigenous suit, Indian jet engine. Can be more than 80 to 90 % indigenous content. What u guys think?

 

[kunal1123]

I am curious. At present kaveri is giving 52 kn dry and full after burn 81 kn which is better than engine of 50 kn dry and 75 kn wet. Why can't we create a mrca jet like Rafel? I guess it will full fill the iaf and navy requirements early. it could have uttam radar, indigenous suit, Indian jet engine. Can be more than 80 to 90 % indigenous content. What u guys think?

don't start it again there is already a lot dissicion happen about this in lca,amca, kaveri thread ...............do read....

 

[Kchontha]

I am curious. At present kaveri is giving 52 kn dry and full after burn 81 kn which is better than engine of 50 kn dry and 75 kn wet. Why can't we create a mrca jet like Rafel? I guess it will full fill the iaf and navy requirements early. it could have uttam radar, indigenous suit, Indian jet engine. Can be more than 80 to 90 % indigenous content. What u guys think?

At present whatever thrust Kaveri produces it is not flight worthy that is why snecma/ Safran is helping GTRE in order to revive and certify it to be a reliable propulsion for a combat aircraft as a part of offset of 36 rafale purchase. When this engine is ready it will be fitted on various platforms such as Tejas mk1a, mk2 and AMCA.

ADA had been designing a twin engine MCA (medium combat aircraft) since the time of LCA's initial development but due to IAF changing requirements and other reasons best known to ada and GOI/MOD it couldn't be fructified. Had that design been approved and developed in parrellel to single engine lca we would be flaunting off to the world a twin engine MRCA like rafale. Instead of that MCA evolves into AMCA (advance medium combat aircraft) and yet to see its light of the day.

 

[kr9]

MKI now costs over $75 million, and it still doesn't have RWR.

MKI,UPG, LCA all have RWR. It is missing MAWS.

The MKI upgrade (which sould begin soon) will include MAWS;
The MKI MAWS has already been developed & tested on another aircraft, but will be tested on the Su-30 after modification, because of structural changes that are required so that the aircraft capability is not reduced. (this is as per report from 2015).

Till we get the Su-30 MKI upgrade, only Rafale will have MAWS in the fighter category.

 

[Kchontha]

Till we get the Su-30 MKI upgrade, only Rafale will have MAWS in the fighter category.

Mirage2000upg is also equipped with MAWS.

 

[smestarz]

We are not in the habit of building a plane on production line and then send them to X Y or Z to fit their avionics.
All the required avionics are fitted in Nasik and tested before testing them,

And if you read the full statement rather than taking part of it to mislead., it says

The IAF currently plans to have 272 Su-30MKI fighters by about 2018. HAL’s Nashik production line is building the fighter at Rs 358 crore each, less than half the estimated cost of buying the Rafale.

“The Su-30MKI is an adequate aircraft for meeting the air force’s needs,” said Parrikar.

I THINK THAT DOES STATE IT TOTALLY, I mean are french going to send half the planes? I guess not.

It says the "production line" is building them at 358 crore. That does not include 3rd party components. The current flyaway is over $75 million. If it was only $55 million IAF would not be complaining about how expensive they are.

 

[TPFscopes]

HAL’s Nashik production line is building the fighter at Rs 358 crore each, less than half the estimated cost of buying the Rafale..

Who said Su-30mki costs the half of Rafale. Many times I cleared the unit price of Rafale by sharing the breakdown structure of Rafale deal.

Out of 8.87 billion dollars, the Rafale costs only 3.6 billion dollars for each Rafale.
Twin seat Rafale have price tag of about 94 Million dollars whereas single seat Rafale Costs about 91 Million dollars each.

 

[Vijyes]

I think India is starting to realise that shooting for 42 squadrons is unrealistic given how much modern fighters are costing these days. You could buy something cheap like Pakistan does but what is the point of having a paper tiger just to fill some imaginary number? What really matters is how combat effective your total force is.

This thread has gone to the dogs. All off topic contents here.

By the way, indigenous planes are not expensive if mass manufactured

 

[BON PLAN]

But yet, they were impressed by Rafale (during the MRCA competition), without even flying one isnt that Interesting?

Indian test pilots flew all the MMRCA contenders.

And IAF is aware of all developpment efforts in the pipe (F3R of course and more : RCS improvements, new radar modes, new conformal antennas, SAT com, communication improvements....)

 

[BON PLAN]

The UAE M2000s are already upgraded to the same level as IAF is getting so it would double the aircraft availability, share commonality and logistics of an aircraft already in service. This could be acquired quickly and economically as the airframes have low hours. Tejas is for dealing with Pakistan's junk air force. M2000 is for dealing with the Chinese. Neuron is scheduled for induction by 2020 and the programme is on track to meet it.

The MKI has little commonality with an Su-57, most of the Russian components have been swapped for imports. The Neuron has the same engine as Rafale. The M2000-5 has similar avionics to Rafale. The infrastructure for both is already being put in place, might as well get more of what you are already setting up to have instead of operating a dozen types that have nothing in common.

You can doubt the competency of IAF all you want. I think they know what they need better than anyone here.

French Kaveri... Kaveri is the Indian part, French is the assistance going into it to make it work which will include the hot section, India will make all cold components. French! French! French! are you triggered yet?

Neuron is only a demonstrator. Too short legs to be operationnal.
The futur is probably SCAF with GB (even if the detail of SCAF is not clear. It's more "a system" than a concrete flying object)

 

[BON PLAN]

The Neuron has the same engine as Rafale.

?
Rafale = M88 / Neuron = Adour.

 

[Armand2REP]

?
Rafale = M88 / Neuron = Adour.

It is not the final version, Ardour isn't even in production.

 

[Armand2REP]

Neuron is only a demonstrator. Too short legs to be operationnal.
The futur is probably SCAF with GB (even if the detail of SCAF is not clear. It's more "a system" than a concrete flying object)

The production version will see IOC in 2020. After Brexit the British are out.