Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

these are the media hit Job ...........
Btw these are Old jets and need to be Upgraded there are new Improved Version of RWR , Tarang Mk-2 .
all the other shortcomings will be ratified in Super Sukhoi Upgrades .

What about MAWS, is that part of Mk-2? My problem with MKI is it is not very survivable in high threat environments. It's RCS is that of an airliner, its radar lights it up like a spotlight and its warning system is questionable at best.

 

[Vijyes]

The French were touting a lot about the time frames and so Indian govt was specific about the time framce given to Safran for ensuring the Kaveri engine is as per the requirement of IAF.
It is actually IAF which is now caught between rock and hard place, IF Kaveri is as per the requirement of IAF, well and good but if the Kaveri engine is not upto the mark, then it wont be accepted and thats problem for Rafale contract. If the IAF accepts an engine which is not upto the mark, they get exposed.

The whole point here is that India is clear that imports = junk. We need to be able to make our own plane. That is quite clear. There is nothing of a dilemma. If Kaveri is not delivered, then there is no reason to buy rafale.

The bogus number of sanctioned squadrons spread by media is not to be bothered with. There is no evidence that 44 squadron will help. There is no reason to say 4000 squadron is not needed. It is better to make and fly MiG21 type planes indigenously instead of rafale being imported. We can make 1 million Mig21 planes if we need in war but we can't import 1 million rafale. We are not Singapore or Israel to have low population. We have enough people to pilot any number of planes.

 

[Vijyes]

What about MAWS, is that part of Mk-2? My problem with MKI is it is not very survivable in high threat environments. It's RCS is that of an airliner, its radar lights it up like a spotlight and its warning system is questionable at best.

It is better to have Mig21 manufactured in lakhs indigenous with Kaveri 82kN engines instead of RD33. 10 MiG 21 is better than 2 MKI hands down. Quantity also has value. India doesn't lack population. So, in worst case, it is better to lose a lakh pilots than a dozen cities.

Don't forget that Indian population is 10times Russian population. In war, even population comes into picture

 

[Armand2REP]

It is better to have Mig21 manufactured in lakhs indigenous with Kaveri 82kN engines instead of RD33. 10 MiG 21 is better than 2 MKI hands down. Quantity also has value. India doesn't lack population. So, in worst case, it is better to lose a lakh pilots than a dozen cities.

Don't forget that Indian population is 10times Russian population. In war, even population comes into picture

That is like Soviet and Chinese military doctrine. Israel is able to defeat multiple enemies with a fraction of the force because the quality of it provides force multipliers that make a few greater than many.

 

[airtel]

What about MAWS, is that part of Mk-2? My problem with MKI is it is not very survivable in high threat environments. It's RCS is that of an airliner, its radar lights it up like a spotlight and its warning system is questionable at best.

they can simply Buy this MILDS-F missile approach warning system from EADS/Cassidian
Or may be from any other MAWS other country like Israel , Italy .
DRDO has developed RAM coatings which will be applied in Super sukhoi upgrades .

they can develop Weapon bays Like F-18 .

there is space available for weapon bays

there are many possible solutions to reduce Radar signatures .


Btw what is the RCS value of Rafale with all these weapons & Fuel Tanks ??

 

[TPFscopes]

MKI by its very definition is an India specific aircraft. In order to put Rafale on the same pedestal, you add India specific costs to the vanilla airframe. If IAF is buying MKI at nearly Rs 358 crores a unit, it is buying Rafale at the nearly Rs 1000 crores (vanilla + India specific changes). Neither includes weapons or infrastructure expenditure.

So it wouldn't be wrong to say that MKI costs less than half of Rafale.

1. Vanilla price tags of Su-30MKI is nearly 68 Million dollars instead of 56 MN USD.
2. Rafale's per flight hour cost is almost half of what Su-30MKI has, this means Rafale is very cheap to conduct any operation. Which means Rafale will be cheaper than Su-30MKI in its lifetime.
3. During the time of intense conflict, you need more and more active sorties for deterrence. For this Rafale can do 5 active sorties in a day where as Su-30MKI can only do max 3.
3. Rafales overhaul time is almost 1/3 of What Su-30MKI has. It means fighter jet will be ready of more sorties which is the intense requirement during conflict.
4. To change an engine on Su-30MKI require about 3 to 4 hours whereas due to Rafale's modular design it requires nearly half an hour to do so....

Most important when Dassault ink the deal with 50% offset , it itself help India in various ways.

 

[TPFscopes]

Who said it was Parrikar and when he was the DM,. I have quoted Parrikar,
What can be more official source than him?

Where do you find Mr. Parrikar in my last post?
I only shared the cost breakdown of Rafale deal. That's it....

 

[TPFscopes]

It is better to have Mig21 manufactured in lakhs indigenous with Kaveri 82kN engines instead of RD33. 10 MiG 21 is better than 2 MKI hands down. Quantity also has value. India doesn't lack population.

I disagree with you for this claim.
Even 10 mopeds can't match 1 Superbike.

 

[Armand2REP]

Btw what is the RCS value of Rafale with all these weapons & Fuel Tanks ??

0.5m^2, about 40X less than a clean MKI at 20m^2.

 

[Vijyes]

That is like Soviet and Chinese military doctrine. Israel is able to defeat multiple enemies with a fraction of the force because the quality of it provides force multipliers that make a few greater than many.

Win is a win. We have to make do with what we got. Israel could not defeat its enemies with smaller force. Just compare the number of planes - in 1973 israel had 400 aircraft while opponents had 450. If opponents had 1000 planes, israel would have lost. The opponents were not fully prepared but attacked half heartedly, more or less in anger against 1967 war. Even then the arabs almost won when USA resupplied Israel. In 1967, Israel had to do a preemptive strike at opposition airbase as the opposition had overwhelming numbers of 900 aircrafts vs Israeli 300.

 

[airtel]

1. Vanilla price tags of Su-30MKI is nearly 68 Million dollars instead of 56 MN USD.
2. Rafale's per flight hour cost is almost half of what Su-30MKI has, this means Rafale is very cheap to conduct any operation. Which means Rafale will be cheaper than Su-30MKI in its lifetime.
3. During the time of intense conflict, you need more and more active sorties for deterrence. For this Rafale can do 5 active sorties in a day where as Su-30MKI can only do max 3.
3. Rafales overhaul time is almost 1/3 of What Su-30MKI has. It means fighter jet will be ready of more sorties which is the intense requirement during conflict.
4. To change an engine on Su-30MKI require about 3 to 4 hours whereas due to Rafale's modular design it requires nearly half an hour to do so....

Most important when Dassault ink the deal with 50% offset , it itself help India in various ways.

but sukhoi can carry More weapons so less sorties are required .
It has much More Longer Range so can be More useful against China .
Rafale is a smaller plane with less powerful Engines That is the cause of less per hour Flight cost .

Rafale was not a Bad deal & I am not against It , but the Most Important thing is we already have 230+ Sukhoi 30MKI .

0.5m^2,

o.5m^2 ?? with all these weapons & fuel tanks ?

You are wrong ...... You should read the comments of @StealthFlanker he has explained all the Technical Data of Rafale .

 

[Vijyes]

I disagree with you for this claim.
Even 10 mopeds can't match 1 Superbike.

You are giving too much value to a vehicle rather than weapons. A BVR has 50% hit probability. So, 5 MiG21 carrying 7 BVR each is better than 1 MKI carrying 7 BVR.

5 mopeds and 1 Superbike is wrong comparison as there is no competition of speed but of fighting. It is like 5 trained soldiers vs 1 highly trained special forces commando.

Quantity has its own quality

 

[Vijyes]

I disagree with you for this claim.
Even 10 mopeds can't match 1 Superbike.

0.5m^2, about 40X less than a clean MKI at 20m^2.

By the way, can fuel tanks be dropped from a rafale or any other jet mid-way to reduce RCS while nearing target locations? It is actually a good balance between range and RCS

 

[airtel]

By the way, can fuel tanks be dropped from a rafale or any other jet mid-way to reduce RCS while nearing target locations? It is actually a good balance between range and RCS

yes , ,

 

[Armand2REP]

By the way, can fuel tanks be dropped from a rafale or any other jet mid-way to reduce RCS while nearing target locations? It is actually a good balance between range and RCS

Drop tanks can be dropped, CFTs cannot. Rafale can carry either.

 

[TPFscopes]

but sukhoi can carry More weapons so less sorties are required .
It has Longer Range so can be More useful against China .
Rafale is a smaller plane with has less powerful Engines That is the cause of less per hour Flight cost .

During an internal conflict, you need to sour the enemy territory with max number of territory, so you need to have more sorties from each available fighter jet you have.

Frontal RCS of armed Rafale is 1 m² whereas Su-30MKI has 4.5m², so Rafale can deliver the loads into hostile territory with minimum risk where as Su-30MKI has more risk of shot down.

Rafale also have a decent amount of thurst to push 9.5 tons of external weight with full efficiency than where do you find that it has less powerful engines. IT HAS WHAT IT REQUIRE....

I'm not saying that Su-30MKI is more capable than Rafale but there is a variety of mission profiles for which Rafale is more suitable than Su-30MKI.

 

[TPFscopes]

By the way, can fuel tanks be droppedom a rafale or any other jet mid-way to reduce RCS while nearing target locations? It is actually a good balance between range and RCS

Yeah, Drop tanks are made to drop when they got empty.
For Rafale it has an advantage in this term, It can carry 2x 2300 liter CFT and 3x 2000 liter Drop tanks.
CFT are designed to provide the lower RCS with the extended range.

 

[TPFscopes]

You are giving too much value to a vehicle rather than weapons. A BVR has 50% hit probability. So, 5 MiG21 carrying 7 BVR each is better than 1 MKI carrying 7 BVR.

5 mopeds and 1 Superbike is wrong comparison as there is no competition of speed but of fighting. It is like 5 trained soldiers vs 1 highly trained special forces commando.

Quantity has its own quality

1. Mig-21 can't share cutting edge in BVR over even Su-30MKI. fixing a BVRAAM on pylon can't make any jet suitable for BVR Combat. You need BVR target and tracking.
If you cannot see, you cannot kill.

2. We prefer more value to our Pilots rather than any machine. Pilots are the most valuable asset for IAF. So, we can't put them on risk to fulfill "QUANTITY HAS ITS OWN QUALITY" criteria.

3. For you comparison , I have one more example which suits it most, 10 desi katta/Tamancha can't outperform a M4 carbine or even an INSAS

 

[Scarface]

Quantity has a quality of it's own , said by a communist dictator who was well renowned to have had poor strategic knowledge and decision making , who almost lost his capital to those fools who prefer quality while they were stretched thin on multiple fronts , even though he had to rely on material support from his partners in war via Lend Lease program despite having the quality of quantity

Anyone using that argument isn't worth your time

 

[square]

Whats wrong in Tejas being as capable as Rafale? Get them into a dogfight and see what happens,

iaf must have done it ready....rafale still not available....
but surely against mki...afterall china has planty of su30 copies....