Know Your 'Rafale'

[Vijyes]

[Q

FGFA is missing from table.

I don't think FGFA is Modi's priority. The way he is bargaining shows that India will not buy FGFA but only the technology. FGFA appears like an excuse for buying the technology within.

Also, @Adioz

My dream is coming true
View attachment 19193

Now for the other part of my dream, I hope that single-engine fighter tender goes to the gallows soon, and more Tejas are ordered later on.

What is air interdiction fighter? AMCA is supposed to be a multirole- air superiority as well as bomber plane. (Air superiority planes are also capable of interception.)

 

[TPFscopes]

I don't think FGFA is Modi's priority. The way he is bargaining shows that India will not buy FGFA but only the technology. FGFA appears like an excuse for buying the technology

HAL already started to draw the plan for the modifications of nasik Production line , it means that only formality is remaining to ink FGFA Contract.

What is air interdiction fighter? AMCA is supposed to be a multirole- air superiority as well as bomber plane. (Air superiority planes are also capable of interception.)

What are you trying to say. It's too much confusing.
Multi role mean it can perform multiple roles without any hiccups.

 

[Adioz]

I don't think FGFA is Modi's priority. The way he is bargaining shows that India will not buy FGFA but only the technology. FGFA appears like an excuse for buying the technology within.

Also, @Adioz


What is air interdiction fighter? AMCA is supposed to be a multirole- air superiority as well as bomber plane. (Air superiority planes are also capable of interception.)

I am not sure what role the IAF is going to put the AMCA in. They do need a high low combo for air superiority, but they might go with Tejas for that one. AMCA is meant to replace the Jaguar which is an attack aircraft. Yes it will be multirole, but I am simply trying to list their primary roles in the table.

Air Interdiction is air attack on enemy supply lines and other tactical targets that are behind the enemy frontline. It succeeds establishment of air superiority and Suppression of Air Defense operations. Not sure if air interdiction also includes hitting other civilian enemy infrastructure. That would be closer to strategic bombing IMHO.

 

[Vijyes]

I am not sure what role the IAF is going to put the AMCA in. They do need a high low combo for air superiority, but they might go with Tejas for that one. AMCA is meant to replace the Jaguar which is an attack aircraft. Yes it will be multirole, but I am simply trying to list their primary roles in the table.

Air Interdiction is air attack on enemy supply lines and other tactical targets that are behind the enemy frontline. It succeeds establishment of air superiority and Suppression of Air Defense operations. Not sure if air interdiction also includes hitting other civilian enemy infrastructure. That would be closer to strategic bombing IMHO.

Strategic bombing is the role of missiles I guess. AMCA can drop bombs and launch cruise missiles if necessary. Since today's nukes are in 100-300kg weight (even pakistan has tactical nuke of 60kg), it is easily possible that AMCA can drop guided nuclear warhead from weapons bay. 200-300kg bombs are generally 2 stage H-bomb with 100-300kT explosives. Boosted fission bombs of 30-40kT weigh at 150kg and tactical nuke can weigh even less at ~100kg.

Almost all planes, even tejas can drop bombs or launch cruise missiles

 

[Vijyes]

HAL already started to draw the plan for the modifications of nasik Production line , it means that only formality is remaining to ink FGFA Contract.

What are you trying to say. It's too much confusing.
Multi role mean it can perform multiple roles without any hiccups.

AMCA can perform all roles - air superiority, interception and strategic bombing and there is no need for FGFA. The most crucial part of a jet is engine. If FGFA doesn't have engine of Indian make, it is impossible for India to mass manufacture it according to needs, repair it etc. The other items like Radar, IRST, stealth paint, BVR etc are addons which can be extra fitted and without some of them jets can still perform some roles. But engine is the prime component of a jet. Without engine, a jet can't even be made. That is why FGFA is not the prime goal of India. However, if it comes with technology transfer, it may be bought just for the sake of technology rather than the plane itself.

Engine = plane.

Kaveri engine's success is same as India being capable of making its own fighter jets

 

[Adioz]

Strategic bombing is the role of missiles I guess. AMCA can drop bombs and launch cruise missiles if necessary. Since today's nukes are in 100-300kg weight (even pakistan has tactical nuke of 60kg), it is easily possible that AMCA can drop guided nuclear warhead from weapons bay. 200-300kg bombs are generally 2 stage H-bomb with 100-300kT explosives. Boosted fission bombs of 30-40kT weigh at 150kg and tactical nuke can weigh even less at ~100kg.

Almost all planes, even tejas can drop bombs or launch cruise missiles

AMCA can perform all roles - air superiority, interception and strategic bombing and there is no need for FGFA. The most crucial part of a jet is engine. If FGFA doesn't have engine of Indian make, it is impossible for India to mass manufacture it according to needs, repair it etc. The other items like Radar, IRST, stealth paint, BVR etc are addons which can be extra fitted and without some of them jets can still perform some roles. But engine is the prime component of a jet. Without engine, a jet can't even be made. That is why FGFA is not the prime goal of India. However, if it comes with technology transfer, it may be bought just for the sake of technology rather than the plane itself.

Engine = plane.

Kaveri engine's success is same as India being capable of making its own fighter jets

Further off-topic discussions here: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/indian-air-force-news-discussions.57142/page-98

Lest we derail this thread.

 

[Bahamut]

Good to see work on new order of rafale , it will increase the no of fighter in IAF arsenal

 

[BON PLAN]

It was failed in high altitude tests undergone in 2004 but the tests of 2010 cleared it for High-altitude Operations.

I don't think it was cleared. And there was also a probleme of noise and vibrations.
So why don't fit it in Tejas ? Even with only 81kn, it's not so bad, for a first attempt.
81 Kn for a light point defense plane, when India need so urgently new planes, is enough.

 

[Vijyes]

I don't think it was cleared. And there was also a probleme of noise and vibrations.
So why don't fit it in Tejas ? Even with only 81kn, it's not so bad, for a first attempt.
81 Kn for a light point defense plane, when India need so urgently new planes, is enough.

Urgency is only media hype. India has sufficient missiles as of now to deter lot of enemies. There is no urgency of war either. There is 99% surety that there won't be any war upto 2030. War is fought only when there is objective. As long as economy is going well, no one will allow it to be ruined by some fool who wants to wage unnecessary war. Let the economy falter after 2030 as population peaks and growth plateaus due to limitations of earth's size.

India needs robust jets with advanced radars, avionics, refuelling, bigger fuel tank, indigenous BVR and seekers. All this takes time. India is not delaying Tejas production because they are incompetent. After Modi came, India is no longer incompetent

 

[Anish1]

Good to see work on new order of rafale , it will increase the no of fighter in IAF arsenal

Any idea which squadrons they will induct into and timelines?

 

[TPFscopes]

I don't think it was cleared. And there was also a probleme of noise and vibrations.
So why don't fit it in Tejas ? Even with only 81kn, it's not so bad, for a first attempt.
81 Kn for a light point defense plane, when India need so urgently new planes, is enough.

Yes, Kaveri Engine was cleared for high altitudes in late 2010.
There was a report by PIB but right now I'm unable to open the link http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=61315

1st. As GTRE want 95+ kn thurst from it.
2nd. Highter dry weight
3rd. Refining process is required but GTRE opt desired specifications, hence go for further research. (The same Engine will be used in GHATAK UCAV without reheat stage)
4th. Highter thurst Engine was required by ADA.

These were the various reasons for not using on LCA

 

[Cutting Edge 2]

[Q

FGFA is missing from table.

First, because FGFA will arrive only after 2027 (if there are no delays). If there are delays then 2030+ circa and maybe even more. Simply not in a decade.

Two, Because Russian picture isn't clear yet. There is no clear Indian roadmap on FGFA. There are some rumours here and there but nothing substantial. So until they sign some basic understanding on project I will be highly sceptical of that deal.

 

[TPFscopes]

First, because FGFA will arrive only after 2027 (if there are no delays). If there are delays then 2030+ circa and maybe even more. Simply not in a decade.

Two, Because Russian picture isn't clear yet. There is no clear Indian roadmap on FGFA. There are some rumours here and there but nothing substantial. So until they sign some basic understanding on project I will be highly sceptical of that deal.

As per present information from russian end, first flight will be possible by late 2020

 

[Vijyes]

As per present information from russian end, first flight will be possible by late 2020

Let Russia first get the T50, then we can speak of FGFA. First flight is different from FOC. T50 didn't even get IOC and it is said that by 2019 it may get it. Delays are possible too. There are many things to be developed for 5th generation fighter which requires huge time. USSR collapse dealt a heavy blow to Russia and it took till mid 2000s to get back in shape thanks to Putin

 

[TPFscopes]

Let Russia first get the T50, then we can speak of FGFA. First flight is different from FOC. T50 didn't even get IOC and it is said that by 2019 it may get it. Delays are possible too. There are many things to be developed for 5th generation fighter which requires huge time. USSR collapse dealt a heavy blow to Russia and it took till mid 2000s to get back in shape thanks to Putin

I will continue this discussion on PAK FA thread.
I'll tag you there.

Good Day..

 

[WolfPack86]

MoD likely to approve next tranche of 36 Rafales for the IAF very soon

The next lot of IAF's Rafales will be clubbed with the Navy’s requirement for 57 naval fighters, which meets the minimum criteria of 90 fighters for setting up a manufacturing line in India economically .

Once the assembly line is set up in India, it would open the doors for a larger order of Rafales for both IAF and Navy.

The first deal for 36, which included the cost of the aircraft, IAF-specific modifications, Weapons and Missiles, Operations and Maintenance infrastructure at two places in India’s East and West, and 50 per cent Offsets as investment in India, was pegged at about Euro 7.87 billion (or US$ 8.8 billion).

In the acquisition of another 36 aircraft, or two squadrons of 18 each, the costs should be lower by about Euro 2.5 billion plus as the expenses for India-specific modifications and infrastructure at two places have already been recovered. Notably, preliminary work in this regard at Ambala in Haryana and Hashimara in West Bengal has begun.

Both these deals are G-to-G or Government to Government, to avoid any unnecessary allegations, which have invariably been a curse for the armed forces in their modernization process over the last about 25 years.

The Offsets clause would translate into construction of a modern defence industrial base as well as some ToT by the Rafale partners, that is, Dassault which builds and integrates the aircraft, Safran which provides the engines and some other onboard systems, Thales which provides the highly advanced EW systems and MBDA, which is supplying the most modern Meteor Air to Air and other missiles.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TejasMrca/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[smestarz]

Please try not to put a facebook page as a source, thats equivalent of you saying "Mummmy " when someone posts a reply

MoD likely to approve next tranche of 36 Rafales for the IAF very soon

The next lot of IAF's Rafales will be clubbed with the Navy’s requirement for 57 naval fighters, which meets the minimum criteria of 90 fighters for setting up a manufacturing line in India economically .

Once the assembly line is set up in India, it would open the doors for a larger order of Rafales for both IAF and Navy.

The first deal for 36, which included the cost of the aircraft, IAF-specific modifications, Weapons and Missiles, Operations and Maintenance infrastructure at two places in India’s East and West, and 50 per cent Offsets as investment in India, was pegged at about Euro 7.87 billion (or US$ 8.8 billion).

In the acquisition of another 36 aircraft, or two squadrons of 18 each, the costs should be lower by about Euro 2.5 billion plus as the expenses for India-specific modifications and infrastructure at two places have already been recovered. Notably, preliminary work in this regard at Ambala in Haryana and Hashimara in West Bengal has begun.

Both these deals are G-to-G or Government to Government, to avoid any unnecessary allegations, which have invariably been a curse for the armed forces in their modernization process over the last about 25 years.

The Offsets clause would translate into construction of a modern defence industrial base as well as some ToT by the Rafale partners, that is, Dassault which builds and integrates the aircraft, Safran which provides the engines and some other onboard systems, Thales which provides the highly advanced EW systems and MBDA, which is supplying the most modern Meteor Air to Air and other missiles.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/TejasMrca/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[smestarz]

FGFA will be Su-57 MKI ... with india specific requirements

First, because FGFA will arrive only after 2027 (if there are no delays). If there are delays then 2030+ circa and maybe even more. Simply not in a decade.

Two, Because Russian picture isn't clear yet. There is no clear Indian roadmap on FGFA. There are some rumours here and there but nothing substantial. So until they sign some basic understanding on project I will be highly sceptical of that deal.

 

[Vijyes]

FGFA will be Su-57 MKI ... with india specific requirements

Please move it to FGFA thread. I guess this thread has derailed severely

 

[square]

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as soon as reliance defence completes its setup !!!!