Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

He mentioned it as potential order, When you want to raise investment, you always give some sort of potential nos, and this is not uncommon in board/investor meetings. Because if he starts with pitch saying "... the GoI will make its mind and then give order... " I do not think any investor would be interested. Firstly there is matter of 36 undelivered Rafales and if they are as per our requirement, then MAYBE ,, there COULD be a next step, Till then he just has to complete the offset and that unit is good enough for that.

You really think GoI will buy it a t 120 million a plane? There will be a lot of people opposing it for different reasons. I for one will be among them..

nothing wrong in his nose.....

resently held invester meet to raise fund , anil ambani clearly mention production of 18 aircraft a year costing 120m$ per aircraft......

what alse it could be other then rafale !!!

its even there on the paper release after the meet........will post if i could find it on web !!!

 

[smestarz]

Why not? If the Rafales are for nuclear delivery, it makes sense to put them in two different bases and also have indegenisation so that we are not caught with our pants down like in Kargil war when Jaguars which we depended on could not be used and Mirage 2000 which could be used did not have the necessary equipment, So thats call just being ready. We are rich country, dont be fooled by it, else we cannot really afford luxuary of 36 Rafales. that is just to keep IAF top brass from passing stupid news to the media.

Do you really imagine India investing so much (particulary in indigenization and 2 bases accomodation) just to stay at 36 ? 2 bases for 36 planes it's rich for a country like India.

I think the final figure, for IAF, will stand between 72 and 130 planes. Add navy. Perhaps.

 

[asianobserve]

I already answered : Money !

It cost far less to upgrade a plane than to purchase a brand new one.

See USA : they will upgrade F16, F18 C/D instead of purchasing brand new marvellous F35

Perhaps it's your poor grasp of English that is the culprit here. The US will buy F-35:

- 1,763 F-35As for USAF;
- 353 F-35Cs for the USMC; and,
- 340 F-35Bs for the USN and USMC.

The F-16, although it has an extraordinary long airframe life, cannot soldier on forever.

 

[smestarz]

French are already so down?
On one hand you say that using Rafale instead of Mirage 2000 will save money, but then you say otherwise too, What is your confusion?

Let me ask you clear question,
A) Does using Rafale save money?
B) What would be ratio of capability, last time you had said 1 Rafale = 3 Mirage 2000 in terms of ability?
And when it costs almost 40-50 million to upgrade and that too with half life gone, it makes more sense to buy new Rafale with gurantees for just 50% more price. no?

The problem with USA is far too bigger than you really know,. France has 200+ planes and it does not have space for more, USA has 10 times more that no, Further F-35 is just in LRIP where as Rafale is on production for over a decade. So building 1000 planes does not happen in a year, so much of the F-16 will be replaced say after another 10-15 years, so make sense to upgrade them. Where as for France, Dassault is mothballing the Rafales and trying to upgrade Mirage 2000. USAF is not mothballing any F-35.. and that is the difference,
France has new planes and are mothballing them, so that they can use the older ones which turn out to be cheaper to use (less than US$ 10000 per hour) rather than Rafale which ends up costing more than US$ 16000 per hour.. and this is one of the real reason.
On other hand, F-35 will cost more per hour than F-16 and no one in America debates that. USAF is waiting for F-35 but since production rate is not much and waiting time is higher, it makes more sense to upgrade some of its F-16s and keep them flying and slowly be replaced by F-35. Further USA also has Air national guards which will continue to fly F-16, they would be the last to get F-35 as they are usually weekend soldiers..
So that is the difference between France (which has a new plane and yet mothballs them and upgrades the older ones which it claims it wants to replace) and USA (which is waiting for the Full run of production so that F-16s that are in service can be replaced but since that might take a decade or two, makes snese to upgrade the present planes for that much life)

I already answered : Money !

It cost far less to upgrade a plane than to purchase a brand new one.

See USA : they will upgrade F16, F18 C/D instead of purchasing brand new marvellous F35

 

[square]

He mentioned it as potential order, When you want to raise investment, you always give some sort of potential nos, and this is not uncommon in board/investor meetings. Because if he starts with pitch saying "... the GoI will make its mind and then give order... " I do not think any investor would be interested. Firstly there is matter of 36 undelivered Rafales and if they are as per our requirement, then MAYBE ,, there COULD be a next step, Till then he just has to complete the offset and that unit is good enough for that.

You really think GoI will buy it a t 120 million a plane? There will be a lot of people opposing it for different reasons. I for one will be among them..

do you heard when modi says " mai choota sooch hi nahi sakta ".

 

[SajeevJino]

I was eager for the Silent Eagle. The specifications and statistics are much higher than the MKI variant, barring the thrust vectoring ability.

The wide range of armament capabilty is, see what the Singapore and Saudi gets, they operates the most advanced F 15's, and with wide range of armaments

 

[SajeevJino]

You say that 1 Rafale in terms of operations is as good as 3 Mirage 2000 and cost wise the operation cost of 1 Rafale is 50% more than 1 Mirage 2000 roughly (as per what you had said) so clearly there is benefit to use Rafale over Mirage 2000, so why still go for upgrading Mirage 2000?
Something definitely fishy, and maybe thats why India went for just 36 and not more

The IAF has had a MLU option for two of its early acquired birds, MiG 29 and the Mirage 2000

Well they also get a option to put the money on either Qatari mIrages or the Upgradation of existing Mirage fleet, IAF choose the wise option, So they choose the costly upgrade to keep the Mirages beyond 2040

Well IAF operates the most modern MiG 29 and the Mirage 2000

 

[BON PLAN]

He mentioned it as potential order, When you want to raise investment, you always give some sort of potential nos, and this is not uncommon in board/investor meetings. Because if he starts with pitch saying "... the GoI will make its mind and then give order... " I do not think any investor would be interested. Firstly there is matter of 36 undelivered Rafales and if they are as per our requirement, then MAYBE ,, there COULD be a next step, Till then he just has to complete the offset and that unit is good enough for that.

You really think GoI will buy it a t 120 million a plane? There will be a lot of people opposing it for different reasons. I for one will be among them..

real cost of the sole plane : 3.3 € billion (on a total of 7.9 billion) for 36 planes => 92 € million each.
(The same price range than for french air force)

Once you have paid for indigenization, bases accomodation, benck and tools... (made !) it's the price of the next batch.

And with 2 bases ready you easily can park 72 planes. (French base of Saint Dizier is the nest for 45 Rafale if I remember well. French base of Nancy Ochey is for 60 Mirage 2000D).

That is why I think a minimum of 72 planes will be acquired by IAF. Maybe with a third base to be more flexible. And maybe some more planes.

 

[BON PLAN]

Why not? If the Rafales are for nuclear delivery, it makes sense to put them in two different bases and also have indegenisation so that we are not caught with our pants down like in Kargil war when Jaguars which we depended on could not be used and Mirage 2000 which could be used did not have the necessary equipment, So thats call just being ready. We are rich country, dont be fooled by it, else we cannot really afford luxuary of 36 Rafales. that is just to keep IAF top brass from passing stupid news to the media.

Frence used the 2 deterrence Rafale squad for classical mission as well.

The last true nuclear only mission plane was first block Mirage 2000N, Mirage 2000N k2 and k3 were also used for classical mission (a N k2 was shoot down in 1995 over bosnia after a classical bombing).
Even Mirage IV was used for reco at the end of its life.

Rafale is too powerfull and versatile to use it only for one role. Even if this role is deterrence.

 

[smestarz]

Air dominance is Su-30 MKI forte where it can dominate, Rafale is too expensive and embarsing if shot down by JF-17, so it might be kept very far from action until safe for it to come out..

Frence used the 2 deterrence Rafale squad for classical mission as well.

The last true nuclear only mission plane was first block Mirage 2000N, Mirage 2000N k2 and k3 were also used for classical mission (a N k2 was shoot down in 1995 over bosnia after a classical bombing).
Even Mirage IV was used for reco at the end of its life.

Rafale is too powerfull and versatile to use it only for one role. Even if this role is deterrence.

 

[Sam Biswas]

Air dominance is Su-30 MKI forte where it can dominate, Rafale is too expensive and embarsing if shot down by JF-17, so it might be kept very far from action until safe for it to come out..

"Air dominance" simply does not mean anything any longer. That applies to both Rafale and Su30MKI. both of these fighters will not be able to cross India-Pak or India-China border because they will be immediately shot down. It may be able to fight an intruding fighter, that's all. IAF needs a large number of smaller and very agile jet for air defense and stealth fighter for attack. In summary, India does not have fighter jets to fight a modern war with China even after the delivery of all the Rafales which will take a long time.

 

[smestarz]

To correct you, Su-30 MKI does go over Indo Pak borderm not so often though, but there is only verbal challenges and threats, they dont send anything to intercept.

"Air dominance" simply does not mean anything any longer. That applies to both Rafale and Su30MKI. both of these fighters will not be able to cross India-Pak or India-China border because they will be immediately shot down. It may be able to fight an intruding fighter, that's all. IAF needs a large number of smaller and very agile jet for air defense and stealth fighter for attack. In summary, India does not have fighter jets to fight a modern war with China even after the delivery of all the Rafales which will take a long time.

 

[WolfPack86]

After MiG-21 & Tejas, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa to fly the Rafale during his visit to France from July 17-20
https://www.facebook.com/IADnews/

 

[Sam Biswas]

After MiG-21 & Tejas, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Birender Singh Dhanoa to fly the Rafale during his visit to France from July 17-20
https://www.facebook.com/IADnews/

That is the wonderful aspect of buying French equipment. IAF and MOD officials will get free trips to France, lots of wine and cheese hob nobing, and possibly many other perks. With that many perks, who cares whether French weapons are any good or not. Unfortunately, it is not happening with Lockheed.

 

[BON PLAN]

Air dominance is Su-30 MKI forte where it can dominate, Rafale is too expensive and embarsing if shot down by JF-17, so it might be kept very far from action until safe for it to come out..

I'm quite sure a Rafale pilot will not be afraid by a JF17.

 

[BON PLAN]

That is the wonderful aspect of buying French equipment. IAF and MOD officials will get free trips to France, lots of wine and cheese hob nobing, and possibly many other perks. With that many perks, who cares whether French weapons are any good or not. Unfortunately, it is not happening with Lockheed.

You are forgeting frog legs !

 

[BON PLAN]

KNOW YOUR "RAFALE" {EARLY DESIGN WORKS} LOOK AT TAIL SECTION.
View attachment 17808

One of the numerous config studied.
Too heavy.

 

[Sam Biswas]

You are forgeting frog legs !

No, I purposefully omitted "French women"!

 

[Sam Biswas]

I'm quite sure a Rafale pilot will not be afraid by a JF17.

Yes, because worst that can happen is to get shot down. But the pilot will die and buried in a $250 million coffin! Not a bad way to go!

 

[BON PLAN]

No, I purposefully omitted "French women"!

so sad !

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