Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

The Russian AF pilot Lt. Col. Oleg Peshkov of the SU24 shot down by Turkish AIM 9X fired fron F16 will degress to your clumsy claim... If there were shortcomings from AIM9X from its miss against the 40-year old Syrian SU22 then i'm sure Raytheon engineers are now examining it for a fix. That would be bad for future adversaries if AIM 9X armed fighters.

Maybe just because the SU24, which was badly equiped, never seen (and heard at the radio not able to received international band freq.) the turkish F16 , so he didn't used flares.

At least I agree that AIM9X is effective against a target without flares....

 

[BON PLAN]

..in future the air combat occurs in large space, don't expect dogfights.

In this large space, there will be large amount of planes, friend or foe, a large amount of missiles, friend or foe, full of electronic support measures.
BVR is a strategy for day one : when battle order is well known (it's yours !). Not after.
So if you don't want to destroy a friend : you have to seen and positively recognised the "target" before fire.

 

[BON PLAN]

The Rafale was designed to intercept soviet Su-27s in Europe and is very similar to the EF-2000 Eurofighter.. These two fighters costed a lot of money and were commercial failures.. I understand that India buys French technology and Rafale was a pure political decision. However I suggest you make an Indian design of the MiG-35 fighter.. It is superior to Rafale and much cheaper..

ABSOLUTE BS !!!

Rafale was made to replace Mirage F1, Mirage 2000N, D, C, Mirage IV, Crusader, Super etendard at once.
It is made for AtoA AND AtoG AND recco AND deterrence missions. In air and marine fleet.
It's the EF2000 which was tailor made to intercept Su27 and Mig 29 (it does others things badly to day)

Commercial failures? Rafale is on spec, on time, on budget. Only a 3% slice on budget... And 84 are exported so far. It's all but the end.... (UAE, Malaysia, more orders from India, Morocco tomorrow...)

Pure political decision? Just remember Rafale was L1 in the MMRCA trials, after the harder field test of history. Remember Swiss eval? Remember Netherlands Eval, lost from 0,02 pt against a paper plane which was affordable, agile and supercruiser at those days (these days are dead).

Mig 35 superior? it's like with F35 : only on power point. No operationnal Mig35 is on duty, so no one knows how it's perform.

 

[smestarz]

Both the points can be true that Rafale was developed as French answer to MiG-29 and Su-27 Flanker threat and also at the same time replace the various planes in French forces. But there is one fact for you to remember. That the new Rafales are being produced and being mothballed, where as the older Mirage 2000 are still operational. So if Rafale were to replace Mirage 2000 then why are the new Rafale being mothballed and the Mirage 2000 still operational? Further the point is that this is happening when france is actually buying lesser than the numbers that were agreed before (Earlier nos was about 25 per year and now that was almost 9 a year) So, Did France go wrong in calculating when Rafales would be ready to replace Mirage 2000 or simply they found that Mirage 2000 have better operational cost than Rafale.
MiG-35 has its advantages and not much known is about the details except that it has orders from Egypt.

ABSOLUTE BS !!!

Rafale was made to replace Mirage F1, Mirage 2000N, D, C, Mirage IV, Crusader, Super etendard at once.
It is made for AtoA AND AtoG AND recco AND deterrence missions. In air and marine fleet.
It's the EF2000 which was tailor made to intercept Su27 and Mig 29 (it does others things badly to day)

Commercial failures? Rafale is on spec, on time, on budget. Only a 3% slice on budget... And 84 are exported so far. It's all but the end.... (UAE, Malaysia, more orders from India, Morocco tomorrow...)

Pure political decision? Just remember Rafale was L1 in the MMRCA trials, after the harder field test of history. Remember Swiss eval? Remember Netherlands Eval, lost from 0,02 pt against a paper plane which was affordable, agile and supercruiser at those days (these days are dead).

Mig 35 superior? it's like with F35 : only on power point. No operationnal Mig35 is on duty, so no one knows how it's perform.

 

[BON PLAN]

Both the points can be true that Rafale was developed as French answer to MiG-29 and Su-27 Flanker threat and also at the same time replace the various planes in French forces. But there is one fact for you to remember. That the new Rafales are being produced and being mothballed, where as the older Mirage 2000 are still operational. So if Rafale were to replace Mirage 2000 then why are the new Rafale being mothballed and the Mirage 2000 still operational? Further the point is that this is happening when france is actually buying lesser than the numbers that were agreed before (Earlier nos was about 25 per year and now that was almost 9 a year) So, Did France go wrong in calculating when Rafales would be ready to replace Mirage 2000 or simply they found that Mirage 2000 have better operational cost than Rafale.
MiG-35 has its advantages and not much known is about the details except that it has orders from Egypt.

The priority was not to compete against a kind of plane or another, but to replace 7 kinds of french planes, in order to fight and win in all situations and against all potential threats.

There is no new rafale mothballed ! French air force need more rafale, and it's because we leave slots available on the Merignac line for export orders that an upgrade of 55 Mirage 2000 D is on track.

There was never 25 Rafale a year for french air force + marine. Max was 14 or 15 if I remember well.
Recently, because of budget cuts, the rythm of delivery was slowed to 11/year. And now far less so as to produce planes for Egypt, Qatar (the first ones are already produced, but will be delivered next yaer) and India.

What is clear is that Rafale cost a little bit more than Mirage 2000. But it is a heavier plane, totally multirole (when Mirage 2000 are not. At least the french ones), and a double engine is always a little bit costly.

And, to finish, Egypt didn't ordered Mig 35, but mig M29 (M2 variant). What is M2 variant ? See my link (in french)
http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/2017/04/01/le-premier-mig-29m2-egyptien-863336.html

 

[smestarz]

Earlier when there was no Rafale but the European project EFA, the other countries had their own dedicated strike aircraft and they were not going to replace theirs., The others together made the Eurofighter. The idea behind EFA was to have a European plane that can counter to the thread of Soviet Flankers.

Now, the nos of Mirage 2000 have not been retired and as you know the planes for France are also being produced. So what are they doing with it if they are not operationalised. At least France is not activating new squadrons. Your friend Picdel ... had categorically told a year ago that new Rafales produced are mothballed and would eventually replace Mirage 2000 after Mirage 2000 were fully used. As a fact, using Mirage 2000 contributes to lower operating cost than Rafale and hence Mirage 2000 would continue to be in operation. If Mirage 2000 was to be replaced like you said, then why are Mirage 2000 being upgraded? Would it not make sense to sell them second hand to another user?

I remember it was higher than 14, and it came down to 11 and France wanted 24 planes in next six year, So the point is why the nos was reduced when the requirement as you say is there? There was no reason why France would have reduced the order. they could have simply replaced the Mirage 2000 with Rafales in some squadrons and close the rest rather than reduce nos.

The priority was not to compete against a kind of plane or another, but to replace 7 kinds of french planes, in order to fight and win in all situations and against all potential threats.

There is no new rafale mothballed ! French air force need more rafale, and it's because we leave slots available on the Merignac line for export orders that an upgrade of 55 Mirage 2000 D is on track.

There was never 25 Rafale a year for french air force + marine. Max was 14 or 15 if I remember well.
Recently, because of budget cuts, the rythm of delivery was slowed to 11/year. And now far less so as to produce planes for Egypt, Qatar (the first ones are already produced, but will be delivered next yaer) and India.

What is clear is that Rafale cost a little bit more than Mirage 2000. But it is a heavier plane, totally multirole (when Mirage 2000 are not. At least the french ones), and a double engine is always a little bit costly.

And, to finish, Egypt didn't ordered Mig 35, but mig M29 (M2 variant). What is M2 variant ? See my link (in french)
http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/2017/04/01/le-premier-mig-29m2-egyptien-863336.html

 

[SajeevJino]

We need to buy F - 15SEs instead of Vipers. 5 squadrons are perfect to handle chinese prefered pressure tactics. Officially, the fleet might or will fly till 2040-50 with the USAF.

well IAF had the Su 30 MKI, which is comparable to the F 15, once the Super Sukhoi project comes effective its good as F 15 Strike Eagles

well the air to ground, Sukhoi still lags

 

[SajeevJino]

The Rafale was designed to intercept soviet Su-27s in Europe and is very similar to the EF-2000 Eurofighter.. These two fighters costed a lot of money and were commercial failures.. I understand that India buys French technology and Rafale was a pure political decision. However I suggest you make an Indian design of the MiG-35 fighter.. It is superior to Rafale and much cheaper..

are you a new Russian troll hides under Greek flag

 

[BON PLAN]

There was no reason why France would have reduced the order. they could have simply replaced the Mirage 2000 with Rafales in some squadrons and close the rest rather than reduce nos.

Just one good reason : money.
It cost less to upgrade a Mirage 2000 (specially to fight in Sahel band or against Daesh) than to buy brand new Rafale.
Ask french air force : they need more Rafale, but we can't afford it at the air force speed. It's as simple as that.

 

[BON PLAN]

Your friend Picdel ... had categorically told a year ago that new Rafales produced are mothballed and would eventually replace Mirage 2000 after Mirage 2000 were fully used.

I think it would have been the case if DA didn't win some export deals : some Rafale moothballed (maybe by Dassault itself). Fortunately it's not the case.

 

[Filtercoffee]

well IAF had the Su 30 MKI, which is comparable to the F 15, once the Super Sukhoi project comes effective its good as F 15 Strike Eagles

well the air to ground, Sukhoi still lags

I was eager for the Silent Eagle. The specifications and statistics are much higher than the MKI variant, barring the thrust vectoring ability.

 

[WolfPack86]

RELIANCE INFRASTRUCTURE GETS GO-AHEAD FOR $1-BILLION AEROSPACE PARK

MUMBAI: Reliance Infrastructure of Anil Ambani-led Reliance Group has received government approvals for its planned $1-billion greenfield aerospace park near Nagpur.

“We can now start working on the first unit by August and hope to complete it by first quarter of 2018,” said Rajesh Dhingra, chief executive officer at Reliance Defence, an arm of Reliance Infra.
“All our aerospace-related units will be based in this one location.

We will invest around $1 billion (about Rs 6,500 crore) on developing the entire part,” he told ET.

The board of approval for special economic zones (SEZs) in the ministry of commerce has given its approval to the proposed aerospace park spread across 289 acres at Mihan near Nagpur.
The park aims to carry out business worth over Rs 200,000 crore over the next 30 years, the company said.

In the first phase, the project will build manufacturing unit for production of aircraft, electronic warfare systems, radars, unmanned aerial vehicles, maintenance repair and overhaul for commercial aircraft, and complete Eco system, including ancillary units and suppliers, to support these large projects. This development will be spread over 104 acres and the second phase will cover an additional area of 185 acres.

Dhingra, who is a former Indian Air Force officer, has been at the helm for the company’s aerospace business even before it acquired Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering in 2015 to make a foray into the sector.

Since the acquisition, Reliance Defence has signed collaboration deals with international defence manufacturers and joined the race to grab a slice of the country’s defence spend along with other private players like Larsen & Toubro, TATA Group, and Mahindra Group.

Reliance Group last year entered into separate joint ventures with French defence majors Dassault Aviation and Thales. In both the ventures, the Indian partner will hold majority 51% stake. The company has already incorporated the Dassault JV and it will be the first project it undertakes in the aerospace park, officials said.
Both the JVs will be based out of Mihan SEZ and will work towards the execution of offset obligation worth up to Rs 30,000 crore for the 36 Rafale fighter jets being bought by India for Rs 60,000 crore, the company said.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/07/reliance-infrastructure-gets-go-ahead.html

 

[BON PLAN]

RELIANCE INFRASTRUCTURE GETS GO-AHEAD FOR $1-BILLION AEROSPACE PARK

MUMBAI: Reliance Infrastructure of Anil Ambani-led Reliance Group has received government approvals for its planned $1-billion greenfield aerospace park near Nagpur.

“We can now start working on the first unit by August and hope to complete it by first quarter of 2018,” said Rajesh Dhingra, chief executive officer at Reliance Defence, an arm of Reliance Infra.
“All our aerospace-related units will be based in this one location.

We will invest around $1 billion (about Rs 6,500 crore) on developing the entire part,” he told ET.

The board of approval for special economic zones (SEZs) in the ministry of commerce has given its approval to the proposed aerospace park spread across 289 acres at Mihan near Nagpur.
The park aims to carry out business worth over Rs 200,000 crore over the next 30 years, the company said.

In the first phase, the project will build manufacturing unit for production of aircraft, electronic warfare systems, radars, unmanned aerial vehicles, maintenance repair and overhaul for commercial aircraft, and complete Eco system, including ancillary units and suppliers, to support these large projects. This development will be spread over 104 acres and the second phase will cover an additional area of 185 acres.

Dhingra, who is a former Indian Air Force officer, has been at the helm for the company’s aerospace business even before it acquired Pipavav Defence & Offshore Engineering in 2015 to make a foray into the sector.

Since the acquisition, Reliance Defence has signed collaboration deals with international defence manufacturers and joined the race to grab a slice of the country’s defence spend along with other private players like Larsen & Toubro, TATA Group, and Mahindra Group.

Reliance Group last year entered into separate joint ventures with French defence majors Dassault Aviation and Thales. In both the ventures, the Indian partner will hold majority 51% stake. The company has already incorporated the Dassault JV and it will be the first project it undertakes in the aerospace park, officials said.
Both the JVs will be based out of Mihan SEZ and will work towards the execution of offset obligation worth up to Rs 30,000 crore for the 36 Rafale fighter jets being bought by India for Rs 60,000 crore, the company said.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/07/reliance-infrastructure-gets-go-ahead.html

it smells..... Rafale MII !

 

[smestarz]

Its mentioned clearly about the offset and yet it smells? Something wrong with your nose

Both the JVs will be based out of Mihan SEZ and will work towards the execution of offset obligation worth up to Rs 30,000 crore for the 36 Rafale fighter jets being bought by India for Rs 60,000 crore,

it smells..... Rafale MII !

 

[smestarz]

You say that 1 Rafale in terms of operations is as good as 3 Mirage 2000 and cost wise the operation cost of 1 Rafale is 50% more than 1 Mirage 2000 roughly (as per what you had said) so clearly there is benefit to use Rafale over Mirage 2000, so why still go for upgrading Mirage 2000?
Something definitely fishy, and maybe thats why India went for just 36 and not more

Just one good reason : money.
It cost less to upgrade a Mirage 2000 (specially to fight in Sahel band or against Daesh) than to buy brand new Rafale.
Ask french air force : they need more Rafale, but we can't afford it at the air force speed. It's as simple as that.

 

[smestarz]

Su-30 lags in A2G role purely due to short sightedness of IAF top brass, Only few years back they contemplated Su-30 and MiG-29 even for A2G role

well IAF had the Su 30 MKI, which is comparable to the F 15, once the Super Sukhoi project comes effective its good as F 15 Strike Eagles

well the air to ground, Sukhoi still lags

 

[square]

Its mentioned clearly about the offset and yet it smells? Something wrong with your nose

Both the JVs will be based out of Mihan SEZ and will work towards the execution of offset obligation worth up to Rs 30,000 crore for the 36 Rafale fighter jets being bought by India for Rs 60,000 crore,

nothing wrong in his nose.....

resently held invester meet to raise fund , anil ambani clearly mention production of 18 aircraft a year costing 120m$ per aircraft......

what alse it could be other then rafale !!!

its even there on the paper release after the meet........will post if i could find it on web !!!

 

[square]

....................................................

 

[BON PLAN]

Its mentioned clearly about the offset and yet it smells? Something wrong with your nose

Both the JVs will be based out of Mihan SEZ and will work towards the execution of offset obligation worth up to Rs 30,000 crore for the 36 Rafale fighter jets being bought by India for Rs 60,000 crore,

Do you really imagine India investing so much (particulary in indigenization and 2 bases accomodation) just to stay at 36 ? 2 bases for 36 planes it's rich for a country like India.

I think the final figure, for IAF, will stand between 72 and 130 planes. Add navy. Perhaps.

 

[BON PLAN]

You say that 1 Rafale in terms of operations is as good as 3 Mirage 2000 and cost wise the operation cost of 1 Rafale is 50% more than 1 Mirage 2000 roughly (as per what you had said) so clearly there is benefit to use Rafale over Mirage 2000, so why still go for upgrading Mirage 2000?
Something definitely fishy, and maybe thats why India went for just 36 and not more

I already answered : Money !

It cost far less to upgrade a plane than to purchase a brand new one.

See USA : they will upgrade F16, F18 C/D instead of purchasing brand new marvellous F35