Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

YES most guys are right, the thread is indeed de-railed, now who will the one taking responsibility and resigning?

Please move it to FGFA thread. I guess this thread has derailed severely

 

[airtel]

Please try not to put a facebook page as a source, thats equivalent of you saying "Mummmy " when someone posts a reply

but that page is extremely reliable ...................more reliable than most Indian Media .

 

[lcafanboy]

A follow-on order of 36 Rafale Jets will result in 40 per cent savings
Friday, August 25, 2017 By: Press Reader Source Link: CLICK HERE





The IAF is now pitching for acquiring another 36 Rafale fighters after it gets the first 36 jets under the Rs 59,000-crore contract ($9.3 billion) inked with France last September, stressing that the “follow-on” deal will cost just around 60% of the original acquisition and induction price.

Defence ministry sources on Thursday said IAF has made “some presentations” on the operational need to procure 36 additional Rafales as part of its long-term plans, with the force contending the French fighters will prove to be much cheaper than the proposed fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) to be developed with Russia. “But no final decision has been taken on either the 36 additional Rafales or the FGFA project,” said an MoD source.

The Modi government had inked the deal for the 36 Rafales, with their weapon packages, associated supplies and logistics, after scrapping the deadlocked $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 fighters due to IAF’s “critical operational necessity”.

As earlier reported by TOI, the first Rafale squadron (18 jets) will be based at Hasimara (West Bengal) to cater for China, while the second will come up at Ambala (Haryana) for Pakistan. The 36 omnirole jets, which can also deliver nuclear weapons, are slated for delivery from November 2019 to mid-2022.

The IAF has told the MoD the infrastructure coming up at Hasimara and Ambala airbases can accommodate two Rafale squadrons each. “This will cut down the induction costs of the 36 additional fighters,” said the source. Grappling with just 33-34 fighter squadrons when at least 42-44 are needed to tackle the “collusive threat” from China and Pakistan, IAF says the Rafales will be “a huge deterrent” with their deadly Meteor air-to-air missiles (150km range), Scalp air-toground cruise missiles (300km) and other weapons.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/A...ets-will-result-in-40-per-cent-savings-283874

 

[smestarz]

True it will add to savings, but would it not be stupid to ply 4th Gen planes against Chinese 5th Gen planes?
The whole IAF exercise is based on assumption that Chinese 5th planes are not good and will be as good as say Mirage 2000. Pitting 4th gen plane against Chinese 5th Gen?
Point is that, just because 1 Egg costs say Rs 5 but if you order 5000 then the price per egg comes to Rs 1/egg so people dont order 5000 eggs to try and save on the price.

A follow-on order of 36 Rafale Jets will result in 40 per cent savings
Friday, August 25, 2017 By: Press Reader Source Link: CLICK HERE





The IAF is now pitching for acquiring another 36 Rafale fighters after it gets the first 36 jets under the Rs 59,000-crore contract ($9.3 billion) inked with France last September, stressing that the “follow-on” deal will cost just around 60% of the original acquisition and induction price.

Defence ministry sources on Thursday said IAF has made “some presentations” on the operational need to procure 36 additional Rafales as part of its long-term plans, with the force contending the French fighters will prove to be much cheaper than the proposed fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) to be developed with Russia. “But no final decision has been taken on either the 36 additional Rafales or the FGFA project,” said an MoD source.

The Modi government had inked the deal for the 36 Rafales, with their weapon packages, associated supplies and logistics, after scrapping the deadlocked $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project for 126 fighters due to IAF’s “critical operational necessity”.

As earlier reported by TOI, the first Rafale squadron (18 jets) will be based at Hasimara (West Bengal) to cater for China, while the second will come up at Ambala (Haryana) for Pakistan. The 36 omnirole jets, which can also deliver nuclear weapons, are slated for delivery from November 2019 to mid-2022.

The IAF has told the MoD the infrastructure coming up at Hasimara and Ambala airbases can accommodate two Rafale squadrons each. “This will cut down the induction costs of the 36 additional fighters,” said the source. Grappling with just 33-34 fighter squadrons when at least 42-44 are needed to tackle the “collusive threat” from China and Pakistan, IAF says the Rafales will be “a huge deterrent” with their deadly Meteor air-to-air missiles (150km range), Scalp air-toground cruise missiles (300km) and other weapons.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/A...ets-will-result-in-40-per-cent-savings-283874

 

[Vijyes]

True it will add to savings, but would it not be stupid to ply 4th Gen planes against Chinese 5th Gen planes?
The whole IAF exercise is based on assumption that Chinese 5th planes are not good and will be as good as say Mirage 2000. Pitting 4th gen plane against Chinese 5th Gen?
Point is that, just because 1 Egg costs say Rs 5 but if you order 5000 then the price per egg comes to Rs 1/egg so people dont order 5000 eggs to try and save on the price.

The assumption that 5th generation is some godly spectral power is not correct. Rafale is 4.5 Gen which has everything other than stealth or low observability. But, other than that it has RAM paint too. It can carry BVR, AESA and do strategic bombing.

By the way, the most important part of Rafale is Kaveri engine offset. We can make our own AMCA with Kaveri engine. In defence, the most important thing is to have indigenous production, not just a few dozen planes which the useless media regularly screams as 'squadron'. We need to be able to make any number on our own. Otherwise, we could even get imported soldiers

 

[lcafanboy]

True it will add to savings, but would it not be stupid to ply 4th Gen planes against Chinese 5th Gen planes?
The whole IAF exercise is based on assumption that Chinese 5th planes are not good and will be as good as say Mirage 2000. Pitting 4th gen plane against Chinese 5th Gen?
Point is that, just because 1 Egg costs say Rs 5 but if you order 5000 then the price per egg comes to Rs 1/egg so people dont order 5000 eggs to try and save on the price.

Chinese 5th gen Fighters are a joke and will remain one at least till 2030. Rafales with F3r upgrade are and will be much stealthier and advance than those CHINI duplicate stealth Fighters. After F-4 Rafales will be better than CHINI maal even after 2030-35.

Chinese stealth Fighters have smoky under powered engines with high infra red signals while Rafales have 5th gen snecma engine. Rbe2 AESA with spectra EW with sensor fusion all traits of 5th gen Fighters.

The only true 5th gen Fighters in world are F-22 & B-2 flying wing. Even F-35S are semi stealth at best. If India buys Pakfa India will be first to deploy 5th gen Fighters between the two.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Timelines are important here.Very important.

 

[Vijyes]

Timelines are important here.Very important.

Rafales of the first batch of 36 will only be completed by 2023. Next 36 may take another 2 years or more. Isn't it better timeline wise to go for AMCA or Tejas? It is but rafale offers ToT for some components of Engines. It is ToT that Modi cares for. No ToT means no import. India has sufficiently advance technology base already and ToT is only for fastening manufacturing rather than due to complete lack of technology

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Rafales of the first batch of 36 will only be completed by 2023. Next 36 may take another 2 years or more. Isn't it better timeline wise to go for AMCA or Tejas? It is but rafale offers ToT for some components of Engines. It is ToT that Modi cares for. No ToT means no import. India has sufficiently advance technology base already and ToT is only for fastening manufacturing rather than due to complete lack of technology

AMCA?It is atleast 10years away if not more.

Tejas doesnt have the capability of a rafale.

I hope the GOI asks for simultaneous delivery of both orders.

 

[Vijyes]

AMCA?It is atleast 10years away if not more.

Tejas doesnt have the capability of a rafale.

I hope the GOI asks for simultaneous delivery of both orders.

AMCA to be completed by 2025 and rolling out by 2027. May be delayed till 2030. But considering that Rafale will also take 2025 for delivering 72 planes, AMCA, even with delay is still not that bad. We can make in several hundreds every year as they are indigenous. Moreover, Tejas Mk2 will be rolled out by 2022 if new kaveri engines are obtained. The only thing delaying Mk2 is kaveri engine. Otherwise, it is just an upgrade with some add ons like AESA, BVR etc which are in development and proceeding well.

Tejas Mk2 will not be as capable as Rafale but only in weight carrying capacity. That is not that bad as all other features like stealth, cost, AESA, BVR will be as good as Rafale

 

[BON PLAN]

Urgency is only media hype. India has sufficient missiles as of now to deter lot of enemies. There is no urgency of war either. There is 99% surety that there won't be any war upto 2030. War is fought only when there is objective. As long as economy is going well, no one will allow it to be ruined by some fool who wants to wage unnecessary war. Let the economy falter after 2030 as population peaks and growth plateaus due to limitations of earth's size.

India needs robust jets with advanced radars, avionics, refuelling, bigger fuel tank, indigenous BVR and seekers. All this takes time. India is not delaying Tejas production because they are incompetent. After Modi came, India is no longer incompetent

India don't need fighter? OK. Why ordering 36 Rafale last year? Why a possible new batch?

In this case stop all weapon purchase and built hospitals, roads, schools.... And close that forum.

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes, Kaveri Engine was cleared for high altitudes in late 2010.
There was a report by PIB but right now I'm unable to open the link http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=61315

1st. As GTRE want 95+ kn thurst from it.
2nd. Highter dry weight
3rd. Refining process is required but GTRE opt desired specifications, hence go for further research. (The same Engine will be used in GHATAK UCAV without reheat stage)
4th. Highter thurst Engine was required by ADA.

These were the various reasons for not using on LCA

So we agree to disgree .

 

[Vijyes]

India don't need fighter? OK. Why ordering 36 Rafale last year? Why a possible new batch?

In this case stop all weapon purchase and built hospitals, roads, schools.... And close that forum.

India needs technology acquisition, not equipment acquisition. Getting external help is faster way of doing that. Why waste 5-6 years if external help can be acquired to get it done in 2-3 years?

 

[smestarz]

Rafales Low RCS is from front only, the moment they have weapons on pylons it will light up very nicely,
On other hand 5th Gen planes come with internal weapons bay.. So yes when you compare Rafale vs 5th gen plane, the 5th gen planes have godly spectral power.
Rafale can do tactical bombing, not Strategic, it does not have that legs and for it to have legs (range) it wont have muscles (war load)

The assumption that 5th generation is some godly spectral power is not correct. Rafale is 4.5 Gen which has everything other than stealth or low observability. But, other than that it has RAM paint too. It can carry BVR, AESA and do strategic bombing.

By the way, the most important part of Rafale is Kaveri engine offset. We can make our own AMCA with Kaveri engine. In defence, the most important thing is to have indigenous production, not just a few dozen planes which the useless media regularly screams as 'squadron'. We need to be able to make any number on our own. Otherwise, we could even get imported soldiers

 

[smestarz]

We want to ensure UNSC seat, so why not,?
We are buying stuff from all UNSC permanent members

India don't need fighter? OK. Why ordering 36 Rafale last year? Why a possible new batch?

In this case stop all weapon purchase and built hospitals, roads, schools.... And close that forum.

 

[Armand2REP]

Rafales Low RCS is from front only, the moment they have weapons on pylons it will light up very nicely,
On other hand 5th Gen planes come with internal weapons bay.. So yes when you compare Rafale vs 5th gen plane, the 5th gen planes have godly spectral power.
Rafale can do tactical bombing, not Strategic, it does not have that legs and for it to have legs (range) it wont have muscles (war load)

Rafale VLO is from front and top down. It was designed for low level deep strike. At low level you won't pick up anything until you are dead.

 

[Vijyes]

Rafales Low RCS is from front only, the moment they have weapons on pylons it will light up very nicely,
On other hand 5th Gen planes come with internal weapons bay.. So yes when you compare Rafale vs 5th gen plane, the 5th gen planes have godly spectral power.
Rafale can do tactical bombing, not Strategic, it does not have that legs and for it to have legs (range) it wont have muscles (war load)

We want to ensure UNSC seat, so why not,?
We are buying stuff from all UNSC permanent members

I think I mentioned kaveri engine. Imported goods is only worth the immediate needs or the technology it offers. Kaveri engine is a critical technology which India badly needs.

No, UNO will eventually collapse if it continues like this. We don't need to beg for membership by buying useless goods. We will buy only those goods which we need.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale can do tactical bombing, not Strategic, it does not have that legs and for it to have legs (range) it wont have muscles (war load)

it depends what you mean by strategic.
An ASMP A is 900kg, range of 300 to 500km and 200kt of warhead. Not enough strategic for you ?

 

[Armand2REP]

it depends what you mean by strategic.
An ASMP A is 900kg, range of 300 to 500km and 200kt of warhead. Not enough strategic for you ?

It is referring to strategic bombing which was defined in WWII. It is any medium to long range penetration bomber that can take out strategic targets that support the capacity to wage war. Without aerial refueling the Rafale can strike 2300km from its base and return. It is a medium range penetration bomber, borderline strategic without a tanker. With a tanker it is easily strategic.

 

[Vijyes]

It is referring to strategic bombing which was defined in WWII. It is any medium to long range penetration bomber that can take out strategic targets that support the capacity to wage war. Without aerial refueling the Rafale can strike 2300km from its base and return. It is a medium range penetration bomber, borderline strategic without a tanker. With a tanker it is easily strategic.

A nuclear warhead weighs around 300kg for 150kT as of current technology (US had them in 1990 itself). That is a very small payload. Even with additional wings and guidance system, it should weigh 400-500kg. Carrying these kind of bombs is not at all a weight issue

Now coming to bombing 3000km inside enemy territory, no sane person will plan such an adventure. The ferry range of a plane may be 6000km but that doesn't mean one will travel 3000km one way trip hoping that he will. Not have to maneuver, will not be trapped on the way by SAMs or interceptors. Today's radars are extremely powerful machines which can easily detect even stealth planes if they come too close. In such a scenario, you are expecting 3000km inroad into enemy territory, you are seriously joking.

No one would do such foolish thing when there is missiles available foe the job