Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Can you please provide the source

https://francais.rt.com/international/40022-pilote-syrien-avion-abattu
extract in french :
"D'après les dernières informations concernant l'opération américaine contre le SU-22 syrien, celui-ci a été engagé par un Super Hornet américain, qui a tiré deux missiles derniers cris de type AIM-9X Sidewinder ou de type AMRAAM. Le pilote, aux commandes de son avion datant des années 1970 a pu éviter le premier, tandis que l'autre a touché l'arrière de l'appareil, contraignant Ali Fahd à s'éjecter. "

in english :
"According to the latest information about the US operation against the Syrian SU-22, it was hired by a US Super Hornet, which fired two AIM-9X Sidewinder or AMRAAM-type missiles. The pilot, in command of his aircraft dating from the 1970s, was able to avoid the first, while the other touched the back of the aircraft, forcing Ali Fahd to eject."

It is said by other sources that the first missile fired was a AIM9X, and the second a AMRAAM

 

[asianobserve]

https://francais.rt.com/international/40022-pilote-syrien-avion-abattu
extract in french :
"D'après les dernières informations concernant l'opération américaine contre le SU-22 syrien, celui-ci a été engagé par un Super Hornet américain, qui a tiré deux missiles derniers cris de type AIM-9X Sidewinder ou de type AMRAAM. Le pilote, aux commandes de son avion datant des années 1970 a pu éviter le premier, tandis que l'autre a touché l'arrière de l'appareil, contraignant Ali Fahd à s'éjecter. "

in english :
"According to the latest information about the US operation against the Syrian SU-22, it was hired by a US Super Hornet, which fired two AIM-9X Sidewinder or AMRAAM-type missiles. The pilot, in command of his aircraft dating from the 1970s, was able to avoid the first, while the other touched the back of the aircraft, forcing Ali Fahd to eject."

A Frenchman reading RT.... How's the weather in Kremlin, err St. Petersburgh, sorry..... Paris, comrade?

I guess you have to study more the diagram of Rafale that you are supposed to peddle to fully establish your "French credentials..."

 

[BON PLAN]

A Frenchman reading RT.... How's the weather in Kremlin, err St. Petersburgh, sorry..... Paris, comrade?

I guess you have to study more the diagram of Rafale that you are supposed to peddle to fully establish your "French credentials..."

What's the problem ? allnon US sources say same facts.
Strangely US newspapers didn't speak about the missed missile..... We all knew you fall in love with US products.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/news/a27094/su-22-dodge-aim-9x-sidewinder/

 

[smestarz]

600 kg heavier, one pylon less, and cannot land on carrier with full war load that it has taken off with, Has to dump off the heavy load . So though Rafale can carry heavy load, if cannot land with the heavy load, has to dump it,

On other hand 36 F/A-18 with Air force and 36 F/A-18 with navy, it can be a force multiplier with theoretically the AF F/A-18 can refuel, rearm and go on mission (the pilots need to be trained for carrier take off and landing though) but on other hand, there is no way that Rafale B or C and land on carrier.. becomes very limited "omni" role, its one of the trick Rafale cannot perform..

It's just because Boeing made only two planes : a single seat and a dual one, all made for carrier (ie heavier because of the stronger langing gear).
Dassault made 3 planes : a single seat "air", a dual seat "air" and a naval single seater. You want a plane able to acccomodate a carrier and a air base? take the M variant. Just 600kg heavier than C variant.

 

[asianobserve]

What's the problem ? allnon US sources say same facts.
Strangely US newspapers didn't speak about the missed missile..... We all knew you fall in love with US products.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/military/aviation/news/a27094/su-22-dodge-aim-9x-sidewinder/

The US is not Russia. Everything in the US, the good and the bad, is reported and discussed:

"Immediately after the Syrian Su-22 fighter jet dropped its bombs, two American F/A-18E Super Hornets, flying from the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush, engaged, firing a AIM-9 Sidewinder -- a short-range air-to-air missile -- at the Syrian plane from about half a mile away, two US officials told CNN.

But the Syrian jet deployed defensive flares, causing the US missile to miss its target. The US pilot proceeded to fire off a second missile, an AIM 120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile, which hit its intended target, downing the Syrian warplane and forcing its pilot to eject, the officials added."

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/21/politics/us-syria-russia-dogfight/index.html

What now comrade?

 

[SajeevJino]

ABOUT GRIPEN E and F16 : some news from a well informed forumer of another forum :

"In one of the presentations by Saab to MOD, Saab folks said Gripen E can take off from Assam, can deliver mission ordinances to Pakistan and then fly back and will require mid air refueling only around Bagdogra.

IAF official present there laughed and said are you sure? Saab folks said its our estimation and based on conditions, altitude, payload and air it might get decreased...

End Result - IAF report says Mission Range and Ferry range - Inconclusive

Thats what happens when you claim BS figure out of the blue..

And its not limited to Saab alone..

LM claimed F6 can do more range then MKI with one just one time refuelling at mission loads pretty much top heavy. Their figure of almost 3800 kms from F16 vs 3000 kms fro MKI. Again LM was grilled hard and finally dedicated mission range came down to 650-800 kms and extended range with refuelling around 1000-1100 kms under mission loads and conditions...

and BTW both fighters are strict no no for hi altitude and near J&K, Tibet and Arunachal Theater..

In those places, officially based on Leh test results on record IAF has stated LCA to have better performance numbers..

Bottomline_ Dont trust LM and Saab marketing... Let IAF use and prove whats the real mission ranges and whether they fit the so called swing role doctrine.. as of now it does not of course,, and IAF is not confident for some foreseeable future as well"

http://*****************/threads/f1...-and-possibilities.56222/page-130#post-573294

interesting anyway..so problem is IAF officers who stopping their BS claims and putting hard line on such procurement,So OEM meets the Politicians secretly and give something to clear the deal

Hence the Single Engine RFI was rolled on, without considering IAF's requirements

Any idea what the BJP defense wala says about this Single engine deal

 

[BON PLAN]

600 kg heavier, one pylon less, and cannot land on carrier with full war load that it has taken off with, Has to dump off the heavy load . So though Rafale can carry heavy load, if cannot land with the heavy load, has to dump it,

On other hand 36 F/A-18 with Air force and 36 F/A-18 with navy, it can be a force multiplier with theoretically the AF F/A-18 can refuel, rearm and go on mission (the pilots need to be trained for carrier take off and landing though) but on other hand, there is no way that Rafale B or C and land on carrier.. becomes very limited "omni" role, its one of the trick Rafale cannot perform..

Don't you imagine a SH18 dédicated to air force only would be lighter? at least it would be a little bit more dynamic.
A pylon less : this pylon was never used on air force version (used to carry 2 AA missiles in the frame centre, but no AA missile qualified here so far. Reserved to external tank, heavy bombs, nuclear french missile ASMPA or exocet or SCALP cruise missile)
Cannot land with full ordnance? SH18 is in a worst situation !

Reality is that Indian AF will received a minimum of 72 Rafale (and why not 36 M among), and IN 57 Rafale M.

Bye Bye SH

 

[BON PLAN]

The US is not Russia. Everything in the US, the good and the bad, is reported and discussed:

"Immediately after the Syrian Su-22 fighter jet dropped its bombs, two American F/A-18E Super Hornets, flying from the aircraft carrier USS George H.W. Bush, engaged, firing a AIM-9 Sidewinder -- a short-range air-to-air missile -- at the Syrian plane from about half a mile away, two US officials told CNN.

But the Syrian jet deployed defensive flares, causing the US missile to miss its target. The US pilot proceeded to fire off a second missile, an AIM 120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile, which hit its intended target, downing the Syrian warplane and forcing its pilot to eject, the officials added."

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/06/21/politics/us-syria-russia-dogfight/index.html

What now comrade?

AIM9.....

yes.

but a AIM9 X !!!

poor USA. unable to developp a new plane, and now unable to produce a IR AAM able to catch 30 to 40 years old soviet plane.

 

[BON PLAN]

What now comrade?

nothing more or less than found in my previous post.

 

[smestarz]

Just for the Tejas, and improve on it gradually, IF India wants to be a super power at least it should have its own plane in its air force. Which super power has foreign imported planes as its mainstay?

interesting anyway..so problem is IAF officers who stopping their BS claims and putting hard line on such procurement,So OEM meets the Politicians secretly and give something to clear the deal

Hence the Single Engine RFI was rolled on, without considering IAF's requirements

Any idea what the BJP defense wala says about this Single engine deal

 

[smestarz]

F/A-18 started its life as YF-17 when it lost the race to YF-16 . Then the navy wanted a plane that could replace F-14 Tomcats which became too expensive to use and maintain. Then Mcdonnell Douglas offered them F/A-18 which was upgraded for carrier use. The Navy showed interest and there it was.
Now having lighter F/A-18 could have benefited the Air force, but then that brings in structural changes and again certification would be required. Thus keeping the same strong air frame ensures that the plane is strong. A plane that is developed for carrier use is a strong plane and the air frame will tend to have a better life when used just from land bases. You can see the difficulties France had to go for their Rafale M. India for its N-LCA (still unsure about it) Su-33 for Russia, MiG-29K.. It is easier to go from carrier based planes and develop them into land based planes, but then why to make changes if the same plane is good for use on both carrier and land bases. That actually adds another flexibility to the plane,. A force multiplier.
Do show me a video where Rafale M has landed on carrier with full load.,

Let us not talk of "reality" when its not even there, Does India fly even one Rafale ? No. 72 is still way off.

Ultimately it will all come down to what plane the forces and the govt both are interested. If India is going to take EMALS from USA then surely F/A-18 wll be on cards and that means no wet dreams about Rafale M.

As per what the facts are there, GoI does not want to commit anything to anyone, just keeping its options open

Don't you imagine a SH18 dédicated to air force only would be lighter? at least it would be a little bit more dynamic.
A pylon less : this pylon was never used on air force version (used to carry 2 AA missiles in the frame centre, but no AA missile qualified here so far. Reserved to external tank, heavy bombs, nuclear french missile ASMPA or exocet or SCALP cruise missile)
Cannot land with full ordnance? SH18 is in a worst situation !

Reality is that Indian AF will received a minimum of 72 Rafale (and why not 36 M among), and IN 57 Rafale M.

Bye Bye SH

 

[SajeevJino]

Just for the Tejas, and improve on it gradually, IF India wants to be a super power at least it should have its own plane in its air force. Which super power has foreign imported planes as its mainstay?

India is not going to be a superpower atleast till 2050, economy and cost of live all in utter low, I don't want to jump in there.

well Tejas is not going to do anything on the Airforce, its a failed and dumped project, Its better scrap the multi billion FGFA and make the AMCA better in all terms with foreign help.

India will not have enough logistics and support to fund and induct both FGFA and AMCA.

 

[BON PLAN]

F/A-18 started its life as YF-17 when it lost the race to YF-16 . Then the navy wanted a plane that could replace F-14 Tomcats which became too expensive to use and maintain. Then Mcdonnell Douglas offered them F/A-18 which was upgraded for carrier use. The Navy showed interest and there it was.
Now having lighter F/A-18 could have benefited the Air force, but then that brings in structural changes and again certification would be required. Thus keeping the same strong air frame ensures that the plane is strong. A plane that is developed for carrier use is a strong plane and the air frame will tend to have a better life when used just from land bases. You can see the difficulties France had to go for their Rafale M. India for its N-LCA (still unsure about it) Su-33 for Russia, MiG-29K.. It is easier to go from carrier based planes and develop them into land based planes, but then why to make changes if the same plane is good for use on both carrier and land bases. That actually adds another flexibility to the plane,. A force multiplier.
Do show me a video where Rafale M has landed on carrier with full load.,

Let us not talk of "reality" when its not even there, Does India fly even one Rafale ? No. 72 is still way off.

Ultimately it will all come down to what plane the forces and the govt both are interested. If India is going to take EMALS from USA then surely F/A-18 wll be on cards and that means no wet dreams about Rafale M.

As per what the facts are there, GoI does not want to commit anything to anyone, just keeping its options open

It's not exactly this history.
F/A18 was developped to replace old Corsair and Phantom.
It the SH18 which replace Tomcat.

for the rest..... let's see.
But specially with Trump, USA is not keen to give you technology. like EMALS.

 

[Sam Biswas]

It's not exactly this history.
F/A18 was developped to replace old Corsair and Phantom.
It the SH18 which replace Tomcat.

for the rest..... let's see.
But specially with Trump, USA is not keen to give you technology. like EMALS.

I hate to burst your bubble. Trump is ready to help India whatever way he can. If Obama opened a faucet for India, Trump will open a hose. India has to take advantage of the opportunities. Geopolitics of the world is getting defined. India and Japan have no choice but align with US and USA has no choice but align with India and Japan. India has the immense manpower and military that is unique to India. It will be far far cheaper for USA to give India all the arms it needs to defend entire Asia that US aircraft carriers will never be able to. Looking at the recent Chinese incursion in Sikkim, India needs US help really bad. It is going to happen sooner or later. But clearly, the time is NOW!

 

[lcafanboy]

I hate to burst your bubble. Trump is ready to help India whatever way he can. If Obama opened a faucet for India, Trump will open a hose. India has to take advantage of the opportunities. Geopolitics of the world is getting defined. India and Japan have no choice but align with US and USA has no choice but align with India and Japan. India has the immense manpower and military that is unique to India. It will be far far cheaper for USA to give India all the arms it needs to defend entire Asia that US aircraft carriers will never be able to. Looking at the recent Chinese incursion in Sikkim, India needs US help really bad. It is going to happen sooner or later. But clearly, the time is NOW!

India does need US help but same is true for US too. If you look at latest incursion it's India which is inside China 3 KMS and stopping them from making roads and that too to protect Bhutan. China can only be stopped by India now. You should remember both world wars 1&2 were fought by Indian soldiers and won by the side in which India was which is allied forces having US France England with Indian soldiers. So they do need us to contain China.

 

[BON PLAN]

I hate to burst your bubble. Trump is ready to help India whatever way he can. If Obama opened a faucet for India, Trump will open a hose. India has to take advantage of the opportunities. Geopolitics of the world is getting defined. India and Japan have no choice but align with US and USA has no choice but align with India and Japan. India has the immense manpower and military that is unique to India. It will be far far cheaper for USA to give India all the arms it needs to defend entire Asia that US aircraft carriers will never be able to. Looking at the recent Chinese incursion in Sikkim, India needs US help really bad. It is going to happen sooner or later. But clearly, the time is NOW!

Trump is not alone to decide this kind of things.
See obamacare delete. See new emigration rules : He was prevented from doing so

"America first ! " all is said my dear bubble breaker.

 

[Hemu Vikram Aditya]

India needs US help really bad

India does not need anybody's helpit can handle the situation itself,The US can not be trusted at all.

 

[Sam Biswas]

Trump is not alone to decide this kind of things.
See obamacare delete. See new emigration rules : He was prevented from doing so

"America first ! " all is said my dear bubble breaker.

You know nothing about nothing. You sell Bogus jets in exorbitant price to gullible Indians. What do you know about American politics? Trump has total control of the government and Supreme Court. He got the immigration done and he will replace Obamacare. This is not a tiny country like France; it takes a lot of political maneuver to change things in US.

 

[Sam Biswas]

India does need US help but same is true for US too. If you look at latest incursion it's India which is inside China 3 KMS and stopping them from making roads and that too to protect Bhutan. China can only be stopped by India now. You should remember both world wars 1&2 were fought by Indian soldiers and won by the side in which India was which is allied forces having US France England with Indian soldiers. So they do need us to contain China.

I am from India and I know how little you have. India already spent 19 billion $ on US arms and India will get F-16 because India is tired of third rate Russian jets (literally falling of the sky) and super super expensive French fourth gen fighter jets. As I said US/Trump is ready to help and it looks like Mr. Modi is ready to partner with US and Israel. It does not matter what your personal views may be, PM Modi is very open to help from US and Israel.

 

[smestarz]

Now let me again correct your history

Now, you should really read the the wikipedia page carefully..

The Northrop YF-17 (nicknamed "Cobra") was a prototype lightweight fighter aircraft designed for the United States Air Force's Lightweight Fighter (LWF) technology evaluation program. The LWF was initiated because many in the fighter community believed that aircraft like the F-15 Eagle were too large and expensive for many combat roles. The YF-17 was the culmination of a long line of Northrop designs, beginning with the N-102 Fang in 1956, continuing through the F-5 family.

Although it lost the LWF competition to the F-16 Fighting Falcon, the YF-17 was selected for the new Naval Fighter Attack Experimental (VFAX) program. In enlarged form, the F/A-18 Hornet was adopted by the United States Navy and United States Marine Corps to replace the A-7 Corsair II and F-4 Phantom II,

So, F/A-18 started life as YF-17 where it competed with YF-16 which it lost, and then since the USN did not want the same plane as USAF, YF-17 was pitched to the USN it replaced A-7 Corsair, Phantom jet and also F-14 (there are no more F-14 on naval carriers)
So, try not to tell me the history of F/A-18, as a matter of fact I was following this competition very closely (through the magazines like Flight Global and Aerospace then,

As for technology like EMALS, its not something that really has a General use like a Radar or Targeting POD etc. EMALS will be mainly be required for countries that want to build their own carriers investing a few billion dollars, And not many countries can really do that. So, the EMALs tech very much available for India (though at cost of F/A-18 SH) is possible.

It's not exactly this history.
F/A18 was developped to replace old Corsair and Phantom.
It the SH18 which replace Tomcat.

for the rest..... let's see.
But specially with Trump, USA is not keen to give you technology. like EMALS.