Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

F/A-18 is not the best plane, and unfortunately nor is Rafale, both are well down the pecking order.
But if you do believe the IAF evaluation, then its the IAF who have been on record to say that F/A-18 has the best avionics package among all the contenders.

India may or may not buy from America that is another question. Trump has a big say yes, but orders for F/A-18 are going down, as most countries for F/A-18 would go towards F-35, so where would that leave F/A-18?
India does not want F-16 and I think F-16 is a nice plane, but its not for us.

F/A-18 and Rafale might be OK for Navy, but I am comfortable with MiG-29K

It would be better for AMCA to be a naval project and not an IAF project

The squadron nos are in a way fixed, the more Rafales are puchased the othe planes will be effected, and the ones that will be effected are the ones not inducted and those will be LCA,.

PAKFA/FGFA will be coming no matter what,

Did you not see that when NaMo signed for 36 then suddenly IAF started to clamour for 200 ? I once again tell you, IAF top leadership is one of the most corrupt,.. Tyagi and NAK browne are few of those jokers.

May be F-18 super hornet is the best fighter aircraft but US government won't allow transfer of key technology and will sanction india at the time of India-pak war. Trump won't allow boeing move factory to india. India will not buy any fighter aircraft from US every body knows that. Buying Rafales won't affect tejas project we can use Rafale radar in tejas mk1a. We can also use Rafale technologies in tejas.

 

[Sunstersun]

There are many points which you perhaps should know

a) During MRCA evaluation, IAF did admit that F/A-18 had the best Avionics package, better than Rafale (with AESA and SPECTRA)

b) Boeing is a bigger giant than Dassault, and nos of F/A-18 used and produced are far more than Rafale (all its versions combined)

c) F/A-18 is same and thus any F/A-18 with say Air force can take off and land from Carrier, These are known facts. Rafale C cannot take off and land from Carrier.

Now let me be clear again, Gripen has an excellent Avionics package, Thus if we are able to get the avionics package of gripen or F/A-18 then there is nothing like is. SPECTRA is just sensor fusion and better reporting, It is not something "excellent" or New generation thing that Dassault is trying to spin.

I am aware that either taking Gripen of F-16 will be hurting LCA, in fact ordering more Rafales for IAF will have the same effect. If you know the history of MRCA.
Earlier IAF wanted more Mirages, rather 126 to replace the MiG-21, and then Govt made it an RFI and then here we are/. Thus though IAF talks about LCA should replace MiG-21 they really want to order More Rafale and replace all MiGs (21-29) with Rafales., This is FYI, if you dont know it , you are blind.
Actually before the Rafale deal was signed. IAF was giving all stupid reasons, and they quietly changed MRCA to MMRCA.. You surely can see how blind our IAF top brass are where their desire to order single engine Mirage 2000 ends up selecting twin engine plane.. and those have been flying for a decade !!

Further it was the defence minister and not IAF top brass that helped to improve the availability rate of Su-30 MKI. So I think I did clear about the actual intentions of IAF.

When a war is fought, the victory is always taken by the army (and air force takes the credit) but defeat entirely falls on army. So how committed are IAF top brass to keeping india secure? Not much really. Only the operational level commanders are professionals, and the top brass are professional crooks (read Tyagi and NAK Browne)

Now what we need is almost 200+ LCA as these are interceptors and point defence fighters, and really Rafale will be too expensive to use for these roles due to higher operating cost. LCA would take less than 10000 where as Rafale will be 16000 + for the same mission.


And when China has 5th gen planes coming, the thought of facing them with 4th gen plane reminds me of the polish lancers charging the German tanks during WW2.

Buying Rafales wont help tejas, but it will end up killing Tejas project, and with it LCA Mk2

Do you have a source on that MRCA Hornet avionics analysis?

 

[Armand2REP]

a) During MRCA evaluation, IAF did admit that F/A-18 had the best Avionics package, better than Rafale (with AESA and SPECTRA)

IAF sent in the rejection letter to Boeing that it was not selected because it would be obsolete in 15 years, not to mention performance and maintenance shortfalls.

 

[TPFscopes]

IAF sent in the rejection letter to Boeing that it was not selected because it would be obsolete in 15 years, not to mention performance and maintenance shortfalls.

Source please?
There was a condition in MRCA RFI that at the last stage IAF will select top 2 contenders for terms & price negotiation. Hence rest of the contenders are supposed to be rejected.

There was no rejection letter sent to anyone.

 

[Armand2REP]

Source please?
There was a condition in MRCA RFI that at the last stage IAF will select top 2 contenders for terms & price negotiation. Hence rest of the contenders are supposed to be rejected.

There was no rejection letter sent to anyone.

Shiv Aroor says letters were received by both Lockheed and Boeing.

 

[TPFscopes]

Shiv Aroor says letters were received by both Lockheed and Boeing.

Link please
Else I request you to go through the MMRCA RFI

 

[Armand2REP]

Link please
Else I request you to go through the MMRCA RFI

Why do you think someone submitting a bid wouldn't get a rejection letter? I have been through the MMRCA RFI a dozen times over the last decade, never did it mention anything about someone not getting a rejection letter.

New Light On Why India Rejected The F-16 & F/A-18

 

[TPFscopes]

Why do you think someone submitting a bid wouldn't get a rejection letter?

As I stated in my previous reply, the RFI has a clause that the knocked out contender will supposed to be rejected.

New Light On Why India Rejected The F-16

F-16 & GRIPEN were rejected due to single Engine platform.
And F/A-18 & Mig-35 were found to be lower edge than RAFALE & EFT by IAF.

 

[Armand2REP]

As I stated in my previous reply, the RFI has a clause that the knocked out contender will supposed to be rejected.

You stated in your previous reply that "There was no rejection letter sent to anyone." You link trolled me and called me a liar. If that is how this works I think I will no longer partake of this discussion.

 

[TPFscopes]

You link trolled me and called me a liar.

Bro! Don't take my words another way.
I have no intention to troll anyone. I was just trying to clear your doubts and correcting the information.

 

[FactsPlease]

Why do you think someone submitting a bid wouldn't get a rejection letter? I have been through the MMRCA RFI a dozen times over the last decade, never did it mention anything about someone not getting a rejection letter.

New Light On Why India Rejected The F-16 & F/A-18

I believe its just a miscommunication if you can directly answer tpfscopes for a link that Shiv Aroor said that. Or, even better, that hard source/link that Boeing got that rejection letter, as I'm keen to see that letter, too. (It will be very kind of you to avoid instead countering with a conditional assumption that bidder will surely got an r-letter).

 

[surya kiran]

All assumptions and presumptions need to be made with one very critical thing in mind. The Indian partner. If the Indian partner is the Reliance Group, anybody talking about 50 planes is living in fool's paradise. You want to know why? Go to Nagpur and see where the greenfield facility is being setup.

Rafale and derivatives in the Indian Armed Forces i.e IAF and IN will exceed 200 planes.

Greenfield project for the Dassault Reliance has begun in full swing in the outskirts of Nagpur, Maharashtra. Basic production is expected to start this year end. Reliance Infra is the holding company for Reliance Aerosstructure which is the Indian partner for the Dassault Reliance partnership.

Sirji, copy paste marte samai, thoda toh credit do

 

[BON PLAN]

The FAB estimated that it would cost $4,000 per flying hour rather than about $14,000 for the heavier Rafale.
So it is a named source and one who is chief of Brazilian Air force

I'm afraid Brazilian air force top brass will be very disapointing....

On a Power point all is green.... see F35....

On the ground, it's something different.

 

[BON PLAN]

You seem to be anti -Rafale and anti -French

Smestarz : anti Rafale? NOOOO. just the last 10 years.

Smestarz : anti french? NOOOO. just since his birth.

 

[Sam Biswas]

I guess if someone is pro-India; his/her statement(s) may not be helpful for France, Russia etc. but it is not "anti-France" or "anti-Russian" necessarily. Nine billion dollar for 36 fighter jets is a lot of money for a poor country like India and thus, hard to accept. Particularly when, only one billion dollar (6000 crores) could have taken care of all the loans of Indian farmers for some time.

 

[smestarz]

And the "proven" Rafale is only proven againt countries with no credible air defence,
There was a nursery Rhyme, maybe you do not know about it called Georgie Porgie pudding and pie.
You can google it if you like, I have my take..

Dassy Raffy pudding and pie, he gunned Syrians and made them cry,
When the Sukhois came out to play, poor Raffy ran away..

Actually does apply. after ISIS declared that they were behind the hit in Paris, France increased its air power in Iraq and Syria, And yet for a year, there was no result, Actually the ISIS strength was growing.
When the Russians came with their Su-30 SM. all of a sudden, Rafale kept out of Syria entirely..

The French are aware of the potential of Su-30 SM. the earlier version of it Su-30 MKI beats Rafale hands down, and Su-30 SM is much more advanced version. And if Rafale gets shot down.., embarrassment and no more sales... And a different fact would be proved beyond doubt..

There are lot of reports of F-35, in powerpoint its all green like Rafale, but then, F-35 is not in full production and it will be upgraded based on short comings. BTW Rafale is a 90s design, F-35 is much newer design. France does not either have the money nor a design for a 5th Gen plane and for its empty coffers they can just depend on Rafale sales to try and make something out of it.

France like most countries now realise that F-35 would make better sales since its 5th Gen, but France or other european countries dont have a 5th Gen plane. So, France is now trying to design a "european" plane. Some months back France was very sure that Rafale will be there till 2050, but now since they see a need to have a new "European" plane, seems to confirm that Rafale would really not be able to face the likes of Su-35 or Su-30 in action. It would be left lacking a lot of things,

I'm afraid Brazilian air force top brass will be very disapointing....

On a Power point all is green.... see F35....

On the ground, it's something different.

 

[smestarz]

Whats really to hate the French, from the end of 19th century, they have lost all the battles they fought.
1870s the Grand french Armee, lost to the Prussian army lead by Bismarck

WW1, the German armies led by Ludendorff were at the gates of Paris, The Americans actually tilted the war that too economically. When Germany signed the armistice, the German army was outside the gates of Paris

WW2, the German Blitzkreig shocked the french that they surrendered in less than a month. The earlier estimate of the french was surrender after 6 months.

The French lost Algeria, and Vietnam.. What actually have the French won? Even in EU, France is the 2nd powerful country after Germany..
Nobody hates a loser, nobody cares about losers, Rather to me, France is like football team of Fiji or San Marino, everyone is eager to play with them and get their goals tally to healthy number.. Nobody hates San Marino or Fiji..

As for Rafale, its a nice plane, its a thing, its illogical to hate a thing, We are not dependent on Rafale, we actually have 270 numbers of a plane that makes Rafale pilots pee their pants and thats Su-30 MKI. We did show the French the demo during the recent exercises. 36 were purchased only to stop the French and the IAF top brass from nagging, unfortunately, both still keep nagging. Rafale is too expensive to buy, use , fly and maintain.. Rafale and Eurofighter are plane swhich oil rich countries can afford. The other countries seem to prefer F-16 Gripen. and Su-30 versions which give credible power at good value for price.

Smestarz : anti Rafale? NOOOO. just the last 10 years.

Smestarz : anti french? NOOOO. just since his birth.

 

[Dharmapalas]

And the "proven" Rafale is only proven againt countries with no credible air defence,
There was a nursery Rhyme, maybe you do not know about it called Georgie Porgie pudding and pie.
You can google it if you like, I have my take..

Dassy Raffy pudding and pie, he gunned Syrians and made them cry,
When the Sukhois came out to play, poor Raffy ran away..

Actually does apply. after ISIS declared that they were behind the hit in Paris, France increased its air power in Iraq and Syria, And yet for a year, there was no result, Actually the ISIS strength was growing.
When the Russians came with their Su-30 SM. all of a sudden, Rafale kept out of Syria entirely..

The French are aware of the potential of Su-30 SM. the earlier version of it Su-30 MKI beats Rafale hands down, and Su-30 SM is much more advanced version. And if Rafale gets shot down.., embarrassment and no more sales... And a different fact would be proved beyond doubt..

There are lot of reports of F-35, in powerpoint its all green like Rafale, but then, F-35 is not in full production and it will be upgraded based on short comings. BTW Rafale is a 90s design, F-35 is much newer design. France does not either have the money nor a design for a 5th Gen plane and for its empty coffers they can just depend on Rafale sales to try and make something out of it.

France like most countries now realise that F-35 would make better sales since its 5th Gen, but France or other european countries dont have a 5th Gen plane. So, France is now trying to design a "european" plane. Some months back France was very sure that Rafale will be there till 2050, but now since they see a need to have a new "European" plane, seems to confirm that Rafale would really not be able to face the likes of Su-35 or Su-30 in action. It would be left lacking a lot of things,

What type was the Russian plane the Turks shot down?

 

[Dharmapalas]

Double post, how do I delete a double post?

 

[Dharmapalas]

I guess if someone is pro-India; his/her statement(s) may not be helpful for France, Russia etc. but it is not "anti-France" or "anti-Russian" necessarily. Nine billion dollar for 36 fighter jets is a lot of money for a poor country like India and thus, hard to accept. Particularly when, only one billion dollar (6000 crores) could have taken care of all the loans of Indian farmers for some time.

According to this India spends 2.4% of GDP on military spending, that is not terrible if true, the best thing India can do is keep its military spending increases at a lower rate than the GDP growth rate.