Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

Any further Rafale purchase should happen only when Kaveri engine is completely flightworthy...promises should be honoured

The reason the indigenous effort to rectify Kaveri failed was because of Russian refusal to lease IL-76 testing aircraft to GTRE. Put sanctions where it is due, not on the people who are cleaning up the mess.

 

[Dharmapalas]

No one is saying that...As Parrikar said, we can get 2 Tejas for the price of 1 Rafale..Since we are seeking to replace My 21s and 27s, and Tejas is a good enough replacement for it, the wisdom of the original Rafale deal for 120 planes is questioned..
Rafale is a good plane and I have nothing against it ... except when it is inducted in numbers, it eats up into our defence budget and other priorities are not fulfilled. The same reason I oppose the naval deal, more carriers and Pak Fas in large numbers.
Having said that, 36 is a meaningless number of planes to induct - either we did not buy Rafale or we need to buy at least 20-40 more planes.. otherwise maintenance will be a problem..
Similarly we need to decide on an optimum number of Pak Fas.

Isn't the Gripen/F-16/Tejas 1 competition the one that will replace the Mig 21/27/29?

The Rafael is to replace the Mirages, no?

 

[Kay]

Isn't the Gripen/F-16/Tejas 1 competition the one that will replace the Mig 21/27/29?

The Rafael is to replace the Mirages, no?

I was referring to the original MMRCA and the IAFs actual need

 

[Kay]

The reason the indigenous effort to rectify Kaveri failed was because of Russian refusal to lease IL-76 testing aircraft to GTRE. Put sanctions where it is due, not on the people who are cleaning up the mess.

I am sure this can be mitigated by using other test beds...I am not sure how M88 was tested...
We are not putting sanctions on anyone...merely holding the IAF and government accountable to their statements

 

[gadeshi]

The reason the indigenous effort to rectify Kaveri failed was because of Russian refusal to lease IL-76 testing aircraft to GTRE. Put sanctions where it is due, not on the people who are cleaning up the mess.

Kaveri is gone for the other reason - Indian engineers don't know how to make it durable and thrustful enough with the current materials and gas dynamic scheme...

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[Armand2REP]

Kaveri is gone for the other reason - Indian engineers don't know how to make it durable and thrustful enough with the current materials and gas dynamic scheme...

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If they could properly test the programme would thrive. Russia doesn't want them to succeed.

 

[BON PLAN]

No one is saying that...As Parrikar said, we can get 2 Tejas for the price of 1 Rafale..Since we are seeking to replace My 21s and 27s, and Tejas is a good enough replacement for it, the wisdom of the original Rafale deal for 120 planes is questioned..
Rafale is a good plane and I have nothing against it ... except when it is inducted in numbers, it eats up into our defence budget and other priorities are not fulfilled. The same reason I oppose the naval deal, more carriers and Pak Fas in large numbers.
Having said that, 36 is a meaningless number of planes to induct - either we did not buy Rafale or we need to buy at least 20-40 more planes.. otherwise maintenance will be a problem..
Similarly we need to decide on an optimum number of Pak Fas.

but 2 Tejas hasn't even together the range, firepower, agility, effectiveness, awareness than a single Rafale. Even 3 Tejas.

Tejas is a point defense fighter, with a small air to ground capacity, used to replace another point fighter : Mig21. Nothing more.

I hope India to succeed with Tejas.

 

[BON PLAN]

Any further Rafale purchase should happen only when Kaveri engine is completely flightworthy...promises should be honoured

You're right !

 

[abingdonboy]

No one is saying that...As Parrikar said, we can get 2 Tejas for the price of 1 Rafale..Since we are seeking to replace My 21s and 27s, and Tejas is a good enough replacement for it, the wisdom of the original Rafale deal for 120 planes is questioned..
Rafale is a good plane and I have nothing against it ... except when it is inducted in numbers, it eats up into our defence budget and other priorities are not fulfilled. The same reason I oppose the naval deal, more carriers and Pak Fas in large numbers.
Having said that, 36 is a meaningless number of planes to induct - either we did not buy Rafale or we need to buy at least 20-40 more planes.. otherwise maintenance will be a problem..
Similarly we need to decide on an optimum number of Pak Fas.

The Rafale/MMRCA was never meant to replace the MiG-21.

The IAF desperatly needs Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft, no ammount of LCAs will compensate for this.

There are 200+ MiG-21s that need replacing- LCA will take care of that but the 200 MMRCA requirement still needs to be fulfilled, there is no overlap or conflict between the LCA and MMRCA requirements, do not conflate them.

 

[BON PLAN]

The Rafale/MMRCA was never meant to replace the MiG-21.

The IAF desperatly needs Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft, no ammount of LCAs will compensate for this.

There are 200+ MiG-21s that need replacing- LCA will take care of that but the 200 MMRCA requirement still needs to be fulfilled, there is no overlap or conflict between the LCA and MMRCA requirements, do not conflate them.

A potential futur single engine fighter, in a JAS 39 or F16 form, would affect badly the Tejas.
India need to end the Tejas dev. program and produce it in mass. ASAP.

 

[gadeshi]

If they could properly test the programme would thrive. Russia doesn't want them to succeed.

No.
Their technology chain and materials (alloys instead of intermetallides kike normal guys have).
They ciuld test it 100 years or more without any viable results.

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[Kay]

The Rafale/MMRCA was never meant to replace the MiG-21.

The IAF desperatly needs Deep Penetration Strike Aircraft, no ammount of LCAs will compensate for this.

There are 200+ MiG-21s that need replacing- LCA will take care of that but the 200 MMRCA requirement still needs to be fulfilled, there is no overlap or conflict between the LCA and MMRCA requirements, do not conflate them.

Agreed. Tejas and Rafale are different class of aircrafts. Tejas will replace Mig21s as point defence interceptors and Mirages for high altitude strikes close to borders (like in Kargil War).

MMRCA was an afterthought.
IAF initially wanted more Mirage2000s after their great service in Kargil War, but went for MMRCA since Mirage production was closed and MMRCA provides greater capability. But we cannot afford 200 + Rafales.

 

[Kay]

@abingdonboy
You have to consider life cycle and operating costs, not just acquisition costs. Rafales cost $18000 per hour to operate. Costly aircraft means less money for actual training sorties and more time on simulatiors. That means our pilots will be less ready for actual combat.
War is won by soldiers, not machines.
We need the right capability (hi-lo) mix.

 

[TPFscopes]

IAF is currently have a plan to increase the number of squadrons to 42-45, that clearly meansthat nearly 150 Aircrafts extra from previous count.
Hence, presently RAFALEs and FGFA (if done) can fill that gap.
The number of RAFALEs will only cross 100 in IAF only if Dassault's agrees for MII with ~100% ToT.
Also, if safranized Kaveri meet its success than there will be a great possibilities for the integration on IAF's RAFALE.

 

[abingdonboy]

@abingdonboy
You have to consider life cycle and operating costs, not just acquisition costs. Rafales cost $18000 per hour to operate. Costly aircraft means less money for actual training sorties and more time on simulatiors. That means our pilots will be less ready for actual combat.
War is won by soldiers, not machines.
We need the right capability (hi-lo) mix.

That flght hour cost for the Rafale is way over the top, it is closer to $10,000 and the MKIs is close to $20,000/

The Rafale's life cycle costs are at leadt 50% less than the MKI's.

The number of RAFALEs will only cross 100 in IAF only if Dassault's agrees for MII with ~100% ToT.

No one will offer you 100% TOT, that is beyond laughable. Dassualt have offered MII and it will be signed sooner than you may think.

 

[Kchontha]

That flght hour cost for the Rafale is way over the top, it is closer to $10,000 and the MKIs is close to $20,000/

The Rafale's life cycle costs are at leadt 50% less than the MKI's.


No one will offer you 100% TOT, that is beyond laughable. Dassualt have offered MII and it will be signed sooner than you may think.

What is MII of Dassualt? All the Gurujis are requested to throw some light on this. I desperatly want to be illuminated in this regard.

 

[Punya Pratap]

https://www.google.co.in/amp/m.econ...reliance-defence/amp_articleshow/59060002.cms

Ground work for the 36 assembled Rafale on the way.... Just wondering what is prompting Dassault and Ambani to invest so much as both the partners are known to count every penny they make so unless they're confident of selling more Rafale they wouldn't be investing this much money and efforts for establishing a green field JV venture

 

[WolfPack86]

FRANCE'S DASSAULT TO BRING IN LARGEST DEFENCE FDI VIA RAFALE JV WITH RELIANCE DEFENCE
by Manu Pubby
Dassault will manufacture a significant part of Rafale aircraft in India
NEW DELHI: The largest defence sector foreign direct investment (FDI) is coming soon via French aircraft manufacturer Dassault.
The investment is part of Dassault’s obligations on Make in India commitments under the Rafale fighter jet deal. These commitments require the French company to manufacture a significant part of the aircraft in India.

The investment, intended for manufacturing of aircraft components for global markets, will come into the Dassault-Reliance Aerospace Limited (DRAL) joint venture set up to meet offset obligations for the Rs 58,000-crore deal. The first tranche of FDI, around Rs 200 crore, is likely to come in by July.

“Dassault will emerge as a single largest FDI investor in the defence sector. It will far exceed all FDI till date in the defence sector in India. The cumulative FDI in the defence sector in India till date is of the order of $6 million,” Rajesh K Dhingra, president, Reliance Defence & Aerospace, told ET.

The JV will be used for creating infrastructure at the Mihan (Nagpur) facility, with a ground breaking ceremony planned for the end of July. Teams from the French company have visited the site at least four times in the past three months to finalise project plans. “Groundbreaking is planned in July and we expect the first article to roll out in the first quarter of 2018. Currently, first batch of our team is undergoing training at Dassault facilities in France,” Dhingra added.

Government clearances would not be required for the inflow as it will be under the automatic route for FDI given that Reliance Defence holds 51% of the JV.

Reliance Defence is bullish on the aviation and naval sectors and is targeting potential contracts worth over `2 lakh crore that are expected to come up for bidding in the next 24 months. This includes new submarines and amphibious ships for the navy, over 260 single and twin-engine fighters and a variety of helicopters needed by the three armed forces.

The plan is to set up a 100-acre facility that will integrate a supply chain for the Rafale fighter jet in India. DRAL has announced that the first phase of the project will generate more than 700 highly-skilled direct jobs and 2,800 indirect jobs.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2017/06/frances-dassault-to-bring-in-largest.html

 

[smestarz]

If you can go by actual credible reports, there is one by Brazil which tested both Gripen and Rafale
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/affordable-air-power/article5919437.ece
. The head of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), Juniti Saito, has recently stated that they chose the Swedish Gripen NG after an exhaustive evaluation emphasised its performance, the degree of technology transfer and price. The FAB estimated that it would cost $4,000 per flying hour rather than about $14,000 for the heavier Rafale.
So it is a named source and one who is chief of Brazilian Air force

As per Janes , Rafale cost per hour is about US$ 16500
https://www.ftm.nl/upload/content/f...osts White Paper FINAL 13th March 2012(1).pdf

And I am sure it wont come to 10000 in few years,

Try to get your figures right. Rafale life cycle costs are not lower, actually the Rafale spares are more expensive than those of Su-30 MKI and that might end up making Rafale more expensive than Su-30 in life cycle costs

By the way 16000 is not close to 10000, saying "closer to 15000 might have been more accurate. Have credible source/link to provide for your point about "cost per hour of flying Rafale" ??

That flght hour cost for the Rafale is way over the top, it is closer to $10,000 and the MKIs is close to $20,000/

The Rafale's life cycle costs are at leadt 50% less than the MKI's.


No one will offer you 100% TOT, that is beyond laughable. Dassualt have offered MII and it will be signed sooner than you may think.

 

[WolfPack86]

If you can go by actual credible reports, there is one by Brazil which tested both Gripen and Rafale
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/affordable-air-power/article5919437.ece
. The head of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), Juniti Saito, has recently stated that they chose the Swedish Gripen NG after an exhaustive evaluation emphasised its performance, the degree of technology transfer and price. The FAB estimated that it would cost $4,000 per flying hour rather than about $14,000 for the heavier Rafale.
So it is a named source and one who is chief of Brazilian Air force

As per Janes , Rafale cost per hour is about US$ 16500
https://www.ftm.nl/upload/content/files/IHS Jane's Jet Operating Costs White Paper FINAL 13th March 2012(1).pdf

And I am sure it wont come to 10000 in few years,

Try to get your figures right. Rafale life cycle costs are not lower, actually the Rafale spares are more expensive than those of Su-30 MKI and that might end up making Rafale more expensive than Su-30 in life cycle costs

By the way 16000 is not close to 10000, saying "closer to 15000 might have been more accurate. Have credible source/link to provide for your point about "cost per hour of flying Rafale" ??

You seem to be anti -Rafale and anti -French
Rafale cleared rigorus Indian air force trials and its best 4.5 fighter aircraft in earth
Comparing Rafale with Gripen E which is still on paper plane and it did not even attain FOC