Know Your 'Rafale'

[Armand2REP]

If you can go by actual credible reports, there is one by Brazil which tested both Gripen and Rafale
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/affordable-air-power/article5919437.ece
. The head of the Brazilian Air Force (FAB), Juniti Saito, has recently stated that they chose the Swedish Gripen NG after an exhaustive evaluation emphasised its performance, the degree of technology transfer and price. The FAB estimated that it would cost $4,000 per flying hour rather than about $14,000 for the heavier Rafale.
So it is a named source and one who is chief of Brazilian Air force

As per Janes , Rafale cost per hour is about US$ 16500
https://www.ftm.nl/upload/content/files/IHS Jane's Jet Operating Costs White Paper FINAL 13th March 2012(1).pdf

And I am sure it wont come to 10000 in few years,

Try to get your figures right. Rafale life cycle costs are not lower, actually the Rafale spares are more expensive than those of Su-30 MKI and that might end up making Rafale more expensive than Su-30 in life cycle costs

By the way 16000 is not close to 10000, saying "closer to 15000 might have been more accurate. Have credible source/link to provide for your point about "cost per hour of flying Rafale" ??

How could they compare Gripen NG when it was still on paper?

 

[WolfPack86]

A insider in government decision making says the following

• All Mig 21 will be replaced by LCA versions
• All Mig27, Jaguars and eventually Mig29 UPG will be replaced by Rafale and Rafale Next program where India will participate.
• No serious chatter ot talks for any other single engined jets.
• Indigenous program will be focussed much more.. LCA will be given far more focus in coming timeline.. and also Unmanned Programs.
• AMCA focus will be far more gradual. AMCA and Rafale Next program may be synchronised or even Jointly Developed or a jet which both will use from a parent system as per custom requirements.

Will await for more news on the ground to take it forward.

Edit- decision on jags and 29UPG will happen by 2022-25 timeline with Jag replacement firmed up asap and towards the end of production UPG replacement coming in..
Note: Above statements written by Parikrama an Indian Defence Forum Member talking about next generation Rafale to India and all mig 21 will be replace with LCA
I am posting link below
http://*****************/threads/rafale-deal-signed.56201/page-312

 

[smestarz]

LOL, Did you read the links, I am not the editor of the HINDU, or Janes, the links there are for all to see,

Now few points that you did miss out, The statement was given by the Chief of Brazilain air force., so your question should be IS THE BRAZILIAN AIR CHIEF ANTI FRENCH OR ANTI RAFALE? My answer, "I DONT GIVE A F ***"
As for me. I am pro India and Anti someone looting India., Clear?

Now, how did they come up abt the nos for Gripen E. Gripen E is not really a prototype, its development of Gripen C/D. You did not know that did you?
So why is that Rafale fan boys are happy about F4 which is still on paper, and will come out maybe in 2025 at the earliest a credible Info, but Gripen E which is similar development of Gripen C/D a paper plane? Gripen E is development of Gripen C/D. It might be same as calling LCA a paper plane,. So Rafale F4 is a paper plane? And thats what france is trying to sell to india? Damn, we have got illiterate people like you posing as experts. If you cannot read the news, try to get someone to read it and understand.,
Just for the point again, Gripens calculated cost of flying is US$ 4000 and that of Rafale much much higher.. and its report, and I did not write it, So whats Anti French in that? Pointing out that cost of flying hour of Rafale is not US$ 10000 but between say US$ 16500 and 14000. Are you Rahul Gandhi or related to him?

By the way the best 4.5 Gen plane ends up being Su-35 and if you dont believe that F-35 is true 5th Gen then its F-35, and for Rafale.. its well down the pecking order..

You seem to be anti -Rafale and anti -French
Rafale cleared rigorus Indian air force trials and its best 4.5 fighter aircraft in earth
Comparing Rafale with Gripen E which is still on paper plane and it did not even attain FOC

 

[smestarz]

Not really that difficult, Gripen E is an enhanced version of Gripen C / D
There are going to be lot of upgrades, like better uprated engine, thus it can carry more load, Better avionics and stronger air frame. Gripen E wont be having two engines that it becomes a totally different plane.
So its not that difficult to calculate the cost of flying hour.

It should be worth noting that during MRCA cost calculation when Dassault bid was incomplete and 50 “miscellaneous” items that were left unpriced as part of the original French bid. But yet the Cost Negotiation Committee with some updates from NAK Browne *(who was acting like representative of Dassault) was able to calculate the life cycle cost. So why is this part where FAB can calculate cost per flying hour based on all the details given to them (full and complete) have any doubts?

If incomplete french bid and yet you can come to price calculation and also determine who is lowest bidder, here at least they have a plane which is flying and the upgrades and their cost and performance (GF-F414G) known..so what is the problem?

How could they compare Gripen NG when it was still on paper?

 

[smestarz]

If you had come up with these objections for say AMCA then I can understand, but for Gripen E.. hmm interesting,.
By the way, Sweden is going to upgrade its 60 Gripen C to Gripen E,... that should tell you about things

How could they compare Gripen NG when it was still on paper?

 

[Armand2REP]

Not really that difficult, Gripen E is an enhanced version of Gripen C / D
There are going to be lot of upgrades, like better uprated engine, thus it can carry more load, Better avionics and stronger air frame. Gripen E wont be having two engines that it becomes a totally different plane.
So its not that difficult to calculate the cost of flying hour.

It should be worth noting that during MRCA cost calculation when Dassault bid was incomplete and 50 “miscellaneous” items that were left unpriced as part of the original French bid. But yet the Cost Negotiation Committee with some updates from NAK Browne *(who was acting like representative of Dassault) was able to calculate the life cycle cost. So why is this part where FAB can calculate cost per flying hour based on all the details given to them (full and complete) have any doubts?

If incomplete french bid and yet you can come to price calculation and also determine who is lowest bidder, here at least they have a plane which is flying and the upgrades and their cost and performance (GF-F414G) known..so what is the problem?

Gripen NG has about as much comminality as a legacy Hornet has to a Super Hornet... ie not much.

 

[WolfPack86]

LOL, Did you read the links, I am not the editor of the HINDU, or Janes, the links there are for all to see,

Now few points that you did miss out, The statement was given by the Chief of Brazilain air force., so your question should be IS THE BRAZILIAN AIR CHIEF ANTI FRENCH OR ANTI RAFALE? My answer, "I DONT GIVE A F ***"
As for me. I am pro India and Anti someone looting India., Clear?

Now, how did they come up abt the nos for Gripen E. Gripen E is not really a prototype, its development of Gripen C/D. You did not know that did you?
So why is that Rafale fan boys are happy about F4 which is still on paper, and will come out maybe in 2025 at the earliest a credible Info, but Gripen E which is similar development of Gripen C/D a paper plane? Gripen E is development of Gripen C/D. It might be same as calling LCA a paper plane,. So Rafale F4 is a paper plane? And thats what france is trying to sell to india? Damn, we have got illiterate people like you posing as experts. If you cannot read the news, try to get someone to read it and understand.,
Just for the point again, Gripens calculated cost of flying is US$ 4000 and that of Rafale much much higher.. and its report, and I did not write it, So whats Anti French in that? Pointing out that cost of flying hour of Rafale is not US$ 10000 but between say US$ 16500 and 14000. Are you Rahul Gandhi or related to him?

By the way the best 4.5 Gen plane ends up being Su-35 and if you dont believe that F-35 is true 5th Gen then its F-35, and for Rafale.. its well down the pecking order..

From supporting F-18 Super Hornet you jumped supporting Gripen E. I am not like that keep changing fighter plane i will stick with Rafale. I am also pro India like you I am a nationalist like others. If Gripen comes it is doom to LCA. Govt going what is best for the country. Tejas is one of the best single engine fighter in earth. If more Rafales procure it is best for the Tejas. No body is looting India's money, India buying fighters it has money.

 

[WolfPack86]

Govt currently is focusing on Rafale and more Tejas will be order after intial order single engine tender is just to pressurise Dassualt and french government

 

[WolfPack86]

All assumptions and presumptions need to be made with one very critical thing in mind. The Indian partner. If the Indian partner is the Reliance Group, anybody talking about 50 planes is living in fool's paradise. You want to know why? Go to Nagpur and see where the greenfield facility is being setup.

Rafale and derivatives in the Indian Armed Forces i.e IAF and IN will exceed 200 planes.

Greenfield project for the Dassault Reliance has begun in full swing in the outskirts of Nagpur, Maharashtra. Basic production is expected to start this year end. Reliance Infra is the holding company for Reliance Aerosstructure which is the Indian partner for the Dassault Reliance partnership.

 

[WolfPack86]

LOL, Did you read the links, I am not the editor of the HINDU, or Janes, the links there are for all to see,

Now few points that you did miss out, The statement was given by the Chief of Brazilain air force., so your question should be IS THE BRAZILIAN AIR CHIEF ANTI FRENCH OR ANTI RAFALE? My answer, "I DONT GIVE A F ***"
As for me. I am pro India and Anti someone looting India., Clear?

Now, how did they come up abt the nos for Gripen E. Gripen E is not really a prototype, its development of Gripen C/D. You did not know that did you?
So why is that Rafale fan boys are happy about F4 which is still on paper, and will come out maybe in 2025 at the earliest a credible Info, but Gripen E which is similar development of Gripen C/D a paper plane? Gripen E is development of Gripen C/D. It might be same as calling LCA a paper plane,. So Rafale F4 is a paper plane? And thats what france is trying to sell to india? Damn, we have got illiterate people like you posing as experts. If you cannot read the news, try to get someone to read it and understand.,
Just for the point again, Gripens calculated cost of flying is US$ 4000 and that of Rafale much much higher.. and its report, and I did not write it, So whats Anti French in that? Pointing out that cost of flying hour of Rafale is not US$ 10000 but between say US$ 16500 and 14000. Are you Rahul Gandhi or related to him?

By the way the best 4.5 Gen plane ends up being Su-35 and if you dont believe that F-35 is true 5th Gen then its F-35, and for Rafale.. its well down the pecking order..

No i hate Rahul Gandhi. I am nationalist person.

 

[Innocent]

All assumptions and presumptions need to be made with one very critical thing in mind. The Indian partner. If the Indian partner is the Reliance Group, anybody talking about 50 planes is living in fool's paradise. You want to know why? Go to Nagpur and see where the greenfield facility is being setup.

Rafale and derivatives in the Indian Armed Forces i.e IAF and IN will exceed 200 planes.

Greenfield project for the Dassault Reliance has begun in full swing in the outskirts of Nagpur, Maharashtra. Basic production is expected to start this year end. Reliance Infra is the holding company for Reliance Aerosstructure which is the Indian partner for the Dassault Reliance partnership.

Could you state the source please??

 

[TPFscopes]

A insider in government decision making says the following

• All Mig 21 will be replaced by LCA versions
• All Mig27, Jaguars and eventually Mig29 UPG will be replaced by Rafale and Rafale Next program where India will participate.
• No serious chatter ot talks for any other single engined jets.
• Indigenous program will be focussed much more.. LCA will be given far more focus in coming timeline.. and also Unmanned Programs.
• AMCA focus will be far more gradual. AMCA and Rafale Next program may be synchronised or even Jointly Developed or a jet which both will use from a parent system as per custom requirements.

Will await for more news on the ground to take it forward.

Edit- decision on jags and 29UPG will happen by 2022-25 timeline with Jag replacement firmed up asap and towards the end of production UPG replacement coming in..
Note: Above statements written by Parikrama an Indian Defence Forum Member talking about next generation Rafale to India and all mig 21 will be replace with LCA
I am posting link below
http://*****************/threads/rafale-deal-signed.56201/page-312

I can take it with pinch of salt.

 

[smestarz]

There are many points which you perhaps should know

a) During MRCA evaluation, IAF did admit that F/A-18 had the best Avionics package, better than Rafale (with AESA and SPECTRA)

b) Boeing is a bigger giant than Dassault, and nos of F/A-18 used and produced are far more than Rafale (all its versions combined)

c) F/A-18 is same and thus any F/A-18 with say Air force can take off and land from Carrier, These are known facts. Rafale C cannot take off and land from Carrier.

Now let me be clear again, Gripen has an excellent Avionics package, Thus if we are able to get the avionics package of gripen or F/A-18 then there is nothing like is. SPECTRA is just sensor fusion and better reporting, It is not something "excellent" or New generation thing that Dassault is trying to spin.

I am aware that either taking Gripen of F-16 will be hurting LCA, in fact ordering more Rafales for IAF will have the same effect. If you know the history of MRCA.
Earlier IAF wanted more Mirages, rather 126 to replace the MiG-21, and then Govt made it an RFI and then here we are/. Thus though IAF talks about LCA should replace MiG-21 they really want to order More Rafale and replace all MiGs (21-29) with Rafales., This is FYI, if you dont know it , you are blind.
Actually before the Rafale deal was signed. IAF was giving all stupid reasons, and they quietly changed MRCA to MMRCA.. You surely can see how blind our IAF top brass are where their desire to order single engine Mirage 2000 ends up selecting twin engine plane.. and those have been flying for a decade !!

Further it was the defence minister and not IAF top brass that helped to improve the availability rate of Su-30 MKI. So I think I did clear about the actual intentions of IAF.

When a war is fought, the victory is always taken by the army (and air force takes the credit) but defeat entirely falls on army. So how committed are IAF top brass to keeping india secure? Not much really. Only the operational level commanders are professionals, and the top brass are professional crooks (read Tyagi and NAK Browne)

Now what we need is almost 200+ LCA as these are interceptors and point defence fighters, and really Rafale will be too expensive to use for these roles due to higher operating cost. LCA would take less than 10000 where as Rafale will be 16000 + for the same mission.


And when China has 5th gen planes coming, the thought of facing them with 4th gen plane reminds me of the polish lancers charging the German tanks during WW2.

Buying Rafales wont help tejas, but it will end up killing Tejas project, and with it LCA Mk2

From supporting F-18 Super Hornet you jumped supporting Gripen E. I am not like that keep changing fighter plane i will stick with Rafale. I am also pro India like you I am a nationalist like others. If Gripen comes it is doom to LCA. Govt going what is best for the country. Tejas is one of the best single engine fighter in earth. If more Rafales procure it is best for the Tejas. No body is looting India's money, India buying fighters it has money.

 

[smestarz]

That is the requirement off the offset obligation.
HAL.. much bigger in size, yet cannot sell one LCA to IAF. hahaha

All assumptions and presumptions need to be made with one very critical thing in mind. The Indian partner. If the Indian partner is the Reliance Group, anybody talking about 50 planes is living in fool's paradise. You want to know why? Go to Nagpur and see where the greenfield facility is being setup.

Rafale and derivatives in the Indian Armed Forces i.e IAF and IN will exceed 200 planes.

Greenfield project for the Dassault Reliance has begun in full swing in the outskirts of Nagpur, Maharashtra. Basic production is expected to start this year end. Reliance Infra is the holding company for Reliance Aerosstructure which is the Indian partner for the Dassault Reliance partnership.

 

[smestarz]

By the way, lets see how France reacts to the info that Qatar is supporting Terror activiities,
IF they still go ahead, guess no more UAE orders..

 

[WolfPack86]

Could you state the source please??

First components for the @Dassault_OnAir Rafale fighter to roll out of Indian facility by early 2018.
https://twitter.com/manupubby_ET?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

 

[WolfPack86]

There are many points which you perhaps should know

a) During MRCA evaluation, IAF did admit that F/A-18 had the best Avionics package, better than Rafale (with AESA and SPECTRA)

b) Boeing is a bigger giant than Dassault, and nos of F/A-18 used and produced are far more than Rafale (all its versions combined)

c) F/A-18 is same and thus any F/A-18 with say Air force can take off and land from Carrier, These are known facts. Rafale C cannot take off and land from Carrier.

Now let me be clear again, Gripen has an excellent Avionics package, Thus if we are able to get the avionics package of gripen or F/A-18 then there is nothing like is. SPECTRA is just sensor fusion and better reporting, It is not something "excellent" or New generation thing that Dassault is trying to spin.

I am aware that either taking Gripen of F-16 will be hurting LCA, in fact ordering more Rafales for IAF will have the same effect. If you know the history of MRCA.
Earlier IAF wanted more Mirages, rather 126 to replace the MiG-21, and then Govt made it an RFI and then here we are/. Thus though IAF talks about LCA should replace MiG-21 they really want to order More Rafale and replace all MiGs (21-29) with Rafales., This is FYI, if you dont know it , you are blind.
Actually before the Rafale deal was signed. IAF was giving all stupid reasons, and they quietly changed MRCA to MMRCA.. You surely can see how blind our IAF top brass are where their desire to order single engine Mirage 2000 ends up selecting twin engine plane.. and those have been flying for a decade !!

Further it was the defence minister and not IAF top brass that helped to improve the availability rate of Su-30 MKI. So I think I did clear about the actual intentions of IAF.

When a war is fought, the victory is always taken by the army (and air force takes the credit) but defeat entirely falls on army. So how committed are IAF top brass to keeping india secure? Not much really. Only the operational level commanders are professionals, and the top brass are professional crooks (read Tyagi and NAK Browne)

Now what we need is almost 200+ LCA as these are interceptors and point defence fighters, and really Rafale will be too expensive to use for these roles due to higher operating cost. LCA would take less than 10000 where as Rafale will be 16000 + for the same mission.


And when China has 5th gen planes coming, the thought of facing them with 4th gen plane reminds me of the polish lancers charging the German tanks during WW2.

Buying Rafales wont help tejas, but it will end up killing Tejas project, and with it LCA Mk2

May be F-18 super hornet is the best fighter aircraft but US government won't allow transfer of key technology and will sanction india at the time of India-pak war. Trump won't allow boeing move factory to india. India will not buy any fighter aircraft from US every body knows that. Buying Rafales won't affect tejas project we can use Rafale radar in tejas mk1a. We can also use Rafale technologies in tejas.

 

[TPFscopes]

Buying Rafales won't affect tejas project we can use Rafale radar in tejas mk1a. We can also use Rafale technologies in tejas.

Surely, it can affect Tejas MK2 Project. MK2 is planned to fulfill bit more desires of IAF but don't know why these guys are addicted to French wines.
By the way , we need a developing partner (with no sales rights) for AMCA , not for Tejas.
I can only Support RAFALEs only if they agreed to fit safranised KAVERI on RAFALE because Dassault is also looking for uprated Engine for these birds. And as per the specifications KAVERI GTX will be suitable to do so.
Also, if they agree to run the Indian Production line parallel to their French Production line ( I mean , India should have right to Export these jets

 

[WolfPack86]

Boeing, Dassault racing for Rs 50,000-cr Navy deal for 57 fighter jets
American aerospace giant Boeing and France's Dassault Aviation are among the four entities that have responded to he Indian Navy’s 'Request for Interest (RFI)' to provide 57 multi-role carrier borne fighters, industry sources said.

The other two are Sweden's SAAB and Rosoboronexport of Russia. While Boeing has pitched its F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault has briefed the navy on its Rafale. SAAB has offered the maritime variant of its Gripen single-engine fighter jet. Naval Chief Sunil Lanba confirmed the development. "We will examine the RFI and take it forward," he told this newspaper. The deal is valued over Rs 50,000 crore.

Sources say it is now mainly between Boeing’s FA-18 and Dassault’s Rafale, as the navy would prefer a twin-engine aircraft against SAAB’s single-engine Gripen. “While the navy did not specify a variant, there is a clear preference for a twin-engine model,” a senior industry executive said.

As it had earlier done a deal with the Indian Air Force (IAF), Dassault is seen as having an upper hand. The government signed an $8.7-billion deal with France last year for 36 Rafale warplanes for the IAF. Dassault, defence ministry sources say, has argued it makes sense to equip IAF and navy with the same platform, for better logistics, maintenance and industrial support. "It would help in cost control like manpower training, pilot training, simulators and make it easier to get spare parts,” sources said.

All the four companies refused to comment on queries sent to them.

“Dassault with joint venture partner Reliance has a Make in India proposal already in place and envisages all 57 aircraft to be delivered from its facility at Mihan (near Nagpur),” a company executive said on condition of anonymity.

The navy had on January 25 put out an RFI for the 57 fighter planes, giving manufacturers four months to respond. In the technical evaluation, the foreign companies had to answer queries on technical parameters, budgetary estimates, likely level of indigenisation, transfer of technology and schedule of deliveries after a contract is inked.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/B...0,000-cr-Navy-deal-for-57-fighter-jets-262521

 

[Armand2REP]

Trump won't allow boeing move factory to india.

That is really the crux of the issue and since it will not meet Make in India requirements the RFI sent to Boeing is DOA.