Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

F-35 is a 5th Gen plane, it has engine designed for it, It lacks super agility.

:hippo: It's why a new engine is already on study.....

 

[BON PLAN]

Bombing places that does not have credible Air defence etc does not term as Combat proven.,
By that definition LCA is combat proven too, it has hit many targets during practice and testing,
Rafale is a 4the gen plane with 4.5 gen avionics at the most, Rather its twin engine version of Mirage 2000 which was upgrade of Mirage III.. So in a way that would make Rafale a twin engined upgrade of Mirage III. By the way Su-30 MKI did hump Rafale in Rajasthan,, royally, and Su-35 is a much upgraded version of Sukhoi flanker family. Wonder what PAKFA will do to Rafale ? thought of it? just give you a hint??

old Smestarz propaganda.... seen one year ago. Pathetic.

F22 is a son of P51D in this case.

 

[BON PLAN]

Please dont mind my directness but have you personally flown any of the aircraft mentioned? I hope what ever knowledge you have is based on practical out puts and outings in one of these. Rafale is not 5th gen or even a 5th gen stealth barring some off the shelf american 2nd rate AESA, changed for yours truly. Some things remain classified I am sure.

The Fighter Mafia was made of flying officers, officers and civilian defense analysts who, in the 1970s, advocated the use of Energy maneuvrability theory as the sole driver in designing fighter aircraft.

They timagined the basis for F16 fighter. One of the best success of these last years.

All were not flying pilots....

So no need to have flown all thses planes. All datas neceesary are in the public domain.

 

[smestarz]

Unfortuately for you , if you read the development and evolution of Rafale you will come to know of the commonality of Mirage III with Mirage 2000 and with Rafale.
And there is record for it,. The problem is that the french live in a small pond, and they feel that the magician in the pond is a greatest magician in the world, If the french leave the pond and look around, they really might see more amazing things. But then Rafale is highly upgraded Mirage III, but unfortunately , same generation

 

[smestarz]

Multi role etc, depends on how the planners decide to arm a plane,
Ever asked your Rafale pilot how to attack an enemy tank when they are armed only with A2A missiles?
Even Su-30 MKI can do the same, whats the difference? Can Rafale go 3000 kms on internal fuel with 8 tons warload? Su-30 MKI has A2G, A2A, A2Sh and also now Cruise missile as its weapons package. So what makes Rafale "omni role" different than MRCA Su-30 MKI,

I dont mind the french trying to come up with own terms like "omni role" and thats the marketing term, nothing different than what other planes cannot do.

Rafale was the first one able during the same mission to shoot ennemy fighters and to deliver AtoG missiles or bombs. At the same time. OMNIROLE just means that.

 

[Kay]

The naval deal will cost 15 billion dollars for 57 planes.. FGFA 25 billions for 120 planes...Rafale 8 billions for 36 planes... then we have EMALS 2 billion...new carrier 5 billion..i guess billions are getting tossed around like 5 rupee coins

When it comes to research, we have pennies..bullet proof jacket for only a few soldiers and basic infantry gear is outdated and pathetic for a lot of soldiers...

We need to get our priorities right...

 

[Kay]

We need to build four more production lines for Tejas and cancel single engine fighter competition. Also cancel the naval tende and buy more Mig29Ks. Start the Super Sukhoi upgrade and buy 20-40 Pak FAs. Once Kaveri issues are resolved, we can buy additional 20-40 Rafales.

 

[Armand2REP]

Multi role etc, depends on how the planners decide to arm a plane,
Ever asked your Rafale pilot how to attack an enemy tank when they are armed only with A2A missiles?
Even Su-30 MKI can do the same, whats the difference? Can Rafale go 3000 kms on internal fuel with 8 tons warload? Su-30 MKI has A2G, A2A, A2Sh and also now Cruise missile as its weapons package. So what makes Rafale "omni role" different than MRCA Su-30 MKI,

I dont mind the french trying to come up with own terms like "omni role" and thats the marketing term, nothing different than what other planes cannot do.

Can an MKI go 3000km with max 8t payload? Nope... that is for a 2t A2A loadout. Rafale can go 3700km with 3t payload. It is called Omni-role because it was designed to replace six types of aircraft achieving every role better then the last. Adding capabilities to MKI is an afterthought none of which comes close to Rafale capabilities it was designed for from the start.

 

[Sunstersun]

If the FGFA deal goes through I don't see there being that many more rafales ordered. Too expensive for something that is already going to be pretty old by the time it enters service.

 

[TPFscopes]

Rafale 8 billions for 36 planes...

36 RAFALEs are not bought at the cost of ~$8bn.
The deal includes MICA & Meteor. It also includes integration and testing of IAF ammunitions. Also includes IAF demanded customisation, MRO facility setup, training for maintenance staff and pilots etc.
Jets costs only ~$ 4 billion dollars.

 

[TPFscopes]

French Dasaault Rafale B with Tactical Nuclear Air to Ground Missile ASMP-A

You can see the yellow stripe on missile , it indicates that missile doesn't have any live warhead. It's the training missile.

The missile with red stripe indicates the missile with live Nuclear warhead.

 

[WolfPack86]

Some update

• Rafale deal is beautifully crafted by GOI folks for IAF and IN both.
• Internally GOI is pushing for Rafale deal now more with a firm support from NSA to expand sea based deterrant aspect and positioning an air wing from a carrier as well. This is firmly endorsed by PM and DM/FM
• The plan is clear that IN will hold far more strategic assets in next 20+ years and hence will get a same air wing like IAF and fully equipped and capable for strategic payload.. (some of the assets will get SFC dotted line .. can't disclose more on that.)
• Most leg work for IN Rafale deal done and attached TOGETHER is IAF Rafale deal also.
• In effect if IN goes for Rafale, IAF can buy Rafale with respect to two deals which ever it deemed better.
• The two deals are one combined with IN number and other is standalone deal.
• IN +IAF combined deal becomes 57+36= 93 qualifying it for MII ...
• IN standalone 57 and IAF standalone is 36 .
• GOI itself is modelling the deal to ensure maximum gains and will use the model purchase methodology in upcoming PAKFA deal negotiations.

In a side news ,

• Engine that came for testing (117s) has burned out and something went wrong with the internal pressure.
• People are saying the piece was very old that is why this happened.
• All in all high altitude test was not finished, authorities are testing similar engines on IAF Su30 MKI's else where in India.

This has spooked IAF and GOI who were hoping to fast track Super upgrade and possibly PAKFA present engine capability/ performance.

Thus Rafale deal for IN and IAF is prioritised..
Note: Above statements written by Parikrama an Indian Defence Forum member i am post link below. He is talking more rafales for Indian Air force and Indian navy.
http://*****************/threads/rafale-deal-signed.56201/page-298

 

[Filtercoffee]

The Fighter Mafia was made of flying officers, officers and civilian defense analysts who, in the 1970s, advocated the use of Energy maneuvrability theory as the sole driver in designing fighter aircraft.

They timagined the basis for F16 fighter. One of the best success of these last years.

All were not flying pilots....

So no need to have flown all thses planes. All datas neceesary are in the public domain.

Personally, I cant take a brochure seriously.

 

[FactsPlease]

Rafale meets more of the 40 parameters than PAK FA which falls short.

Which parameter are you talking about and can we have a link to ur source

Plus one to know the source of Rafale meeting parameters, please.

Canada had been in this quarrel about which is the best stop-gap before that cursed F35 can come to replace C/F-18. Personally I like Rafale more than SH - at least at the perspective of stop-gap solution. Link (old but all out for my points): http://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.ca/2014/07/fighter-jet-fight-club-rafale-versus.html
Supporters of Rafale had never given up (partly due to really fed up w/ US MIC and Boeing). Nevertheless, all logistics & operational consideration out-leverage in Trudeau's decision (or advices he got).

However, one local election just last month ousted several Liberty party members of parliament, especially those supporting SH. So now Rafale supporters see some hope. I would love to learn more about its strength.

p.s. I do understand that even Rafale out-perform several in those 40 demanded parameters, it does not mean Rafale is better than PAKFA, nor it fits India's true needs beyond just 40 parameters.

 

[BON PLAN]

Unfortuately for you , if you read the development and evolution of Rafale you will come to know of the commonality of Mirage III with Mirage 2000 and with Rafale.
And there is record for it,. The problem is that the french live in a small pond, and they feel that the magician in the pond is a greatest magician in the world, If the french leave the pond and look around, they really might see more amazing things. But then Rafale is highly upgraded Mirage III, but unfortunately , same generation

There are no common components between these differents fighters. Absolutely not (excepts bolts, nuts...).
The Dassault speciality is Delta plan form (for fighters). As Saab.

But If you think India has baught 36 evolved Mirage III last september, it's your right.

 

[BON PLAN]

If the FGFA deal goes through

The main word is "IF".... FGFA will not be induced until ... 10? 15? 20 years?
Not less.
We are speaking of India .... (with no offense).

 

[BON PLAN]

For my friend Smestarz....

 

[BON PLAN]

The naval deal will cost 15 billion dollars for 57 planes.. FGFA 25 billions for 120 planes...Rafale 8 billions for 36 planes... then we have EMALS 2 billion...new carrier 5 billion..i guess billions are getting tossed around like 5 rupee coins

When it comes to research, we have pennies..bullet proof jacket for only a few soldiers and basic infantry gear is outdated and pathetic for a lot of soldiers...

We need to get our priorities right...

That is THE TRUTH :

SO STOP SAYING EACHSIGNLE INDIAN RAFALE ALONE COST 7.9 €billion / 36 .....

 

[Kay]

That is THE TRUTH :

View attachment 16521
View attachment 16522

SO STOP SAYING EACHSIGNLE INDIAN RAFALE ALONE COST 7.9 €billion / 36 .....

No one is saying that...As Parrikar said, we can get 2 Tejas for the price of 1 Rafale..Since we are seeking to replace My 21s and 27s, and Tejas is a good enough replacement for it, the wisdom of the original Rafale deal for 120 planes is questioned..
Rafale is a good plane and I have nothing against it ... except when it is inducted in numbers, it eats up into our defence budget and other priorities are not fulfilled. The same reason I oppose the naval deal, more carriers and Pak Fas in large numbers.
Having said that, 36 is a meaningless number of planes to induct - either we did not buy Rafale or we need to buy at least 20-40 more planes.. otherwise maintenance will be a problem..
Similarly we need to decide on an optimum number of Pak Fas.

 

[Kay]

Any further Rafale purchase should happen only when Kaveri engine is completely flightworthy...promises should be honoured