Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

The RFI says " Vendor is requested to provide 3D model of the aircraft in clean and all cleared configurations in AutoCad format" is it not better than have the plane there to have the details?

And yes FOLDING wings are part of the requirement. Indian Navy prefers planes with Folding wings, which carrier born plane used by Navy did not have folding wings?

There is no folding wing requirement as I just said. If it is it could be Auto CAD into the design within 10 minutes.

 

[mendosa]

I personally think India should order 200 Rafales for air force and 57 Rafales for navy.

Are bhai gareeb aadmi ki kidney bechoge kya.

257 Rafale ka kya aachar daalna hai. It doesn't require squadrons and squadrons of planes to have a cutting edge air force. Just get a limited number of 4.5 gen planes and put them in a squadron of less powerful planes such that the 4.5 gen plan leads the pack and other planes are able to see what the lead plane sees with its powerful radar using data sharing. There is no need for entire squadron to be made of expensive planes all with AESA radars, just one plane in a squadron with AESA is enough to get the job done. Otherwise there is no limit to how much money you pour in.

It's not WW2 anymore, where hundreds and hundreds of planes fly in large formations and drop bombs on the trenches.

We have AEWACS, satellites, aerostats, long range ground radars, air defense system (S400, Akash, ADD), SAMs and so many other technologies to maintain air dominance over our own territory. The only advantage jet fighters impart over this is the long range stealth strike capability.

IAF keeps peddling the snake oil of "two front war with China and Pakistan", but if that actually happens, do they actually think there will be dog fights between Indian jets and Chinese jets?

We have all the air defense systems we need to defend our airspace, and we have enough types and numbers of missiles to make long range strikes deep inside enemy territory. The IAF better come up with a better role for themselves instead of hogging this imaginary space of a two front war.

India has fought and won wars when the IAF was at an advantage over enemy air force (Kargil) and when the IAF was at a disadvantage (1965), when the IAF was used (1971) and when the IAF was not used (1962). The IAF has never been critical to our plans, they are just an orthogonal and redundant capability which overlaps with what our other weapon systems provide. The only niche role they can play which is unique to them is using stealth planes to strike nuclear facilities inside enemy territory. We don't need 1000 jet fighters for that. We already have 1 squadrons of specially modified, heavy duty, Jaguars, 2 squadrons of Mirage and 2 squadrons of SU30 specially made with EMP-hardened electronics and heavy carriages for the nuclear strike role.

Even France decided to get rid of Mirage because they thought having 2 types of planes (Mirage and Rafale) was "too much" and then we have IAF which thinks nothing is too much.

The IAF literally operates all the planes that exist in the universe.

Mig 21 Bison
Mig 29
Mig 25
SU30
Jaguar
Sea Harrier (now retired)
Mirage
Rafale
C17
C130
Chinook
Apache
Sea King
M17
Mig 27
IL76
C295

This is more types of planes than whole of NATO combined.

There are so many planes, I can't even remember their names. Check out this shameful list : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_Indian_military_aircraft

Now they also want to evaluate F16 and Gripen. The IAF needs to put out a white paper explaining what combat scenario they are preparing for. Are they planning to invade Mars?

What is the investment we make in the IAF and how many times have the 'special capabilities' of IAF been used win decisive battles? It's 150$ million a pop for each of these planes. Imagine how many long range radars, stealth destroyers, frigates, BrahMos and Agni missiles you can produce with that kind of money.

#No_Ullu_Banawing

 

[square]

for navy it will be tejas .....matter of time only !!!

 

[smestarz]

Tejas is good but it has limitations of Range, and load, and further it is single engined plane and any malfunction with one engine means the plane could end up being a write off.
So though I do like Tejas, it was always my view to have two smaller engines for Tejas instead of big one to increase its survivability.

for navy it will be tejas .....matter of time only !!!

 

[SilentKiller]

The single engine contract is dead as Grippen E will cost 200mil and F16 is a dead horse for Airforce with its tainted Paki record. My sense is that we will go for 150-200 rafales, 40 more Su 30mki and 126 FGFA.
So AF by 2030:
126 FGFA
310 Su 30mki
40 Jaguar
80 Mig 29 SMT
190 rafale
200 LCA

thats 42 squadrons which is good enough for China/Pak.

Be realistic bro..
We will never get 190 Rafale - it will cost $42 billion to buy them. (If we make them in india, add $8billion more to cost). Even if have money, we ill get 36 by 2021 and its not possible to get rest 154 by 2030. By 2030 won't get 126 FGFA either.

 

[smestarz]

Procurement should be about.,
Getting the right plane which can handle certain roles at right time and for the right price and conditions.
If IAF was given free hand they might go for more than 500+ Rafales. simply because they are "terrified" of two front war. also it has been proven before that the IAF leadership lacked vision and foresight and certainly does not understand the difference between what it needs and its wants.

A country like France still has more than half of its fighter planes with Mirage 2000 and not Rafale, France is/was under obligation to buy certain nos of Rafale each year to keep Dassault factory working and those new planes were mothballed and kept in storage. Why not use a new plane that has been produced for you?

The cost of operation of French air force will be drastically high the day they replace all the Mirage 2000 with Rafales so much so that in some of the bombings they are still using Mirage 2000 because operating them is more economical than Rafale and certainly ISIS does not have S--300 to scare them.

On the offensive field we are well covered with 270+ Su-30 MKI, what w should work on is the defensive game which is where Tejas comes in. MoD should take a stance and get IAF to use Tejas and just tell them "THERE IS NO PLAN B" They will understand this line. Once they use it numbers, the users will come with their recommendations that can be either put in MLU or in Mk2

IAF is being a customer who does not like a certain brand, and is finding flaws even with the coloiur and is doing so because sees a brand he likes. So best is to give an ultimatum like "USE IT OR LOSE IT" And when I say LOSE IT, it means that giving ARMY the permission to start its aviation force and get them to buy and use Tejas in big numbers that IAF ends up being a force whose role in war is limited over enemy skies only.

 

[Armand2REP]

And yes FOLDING wings are part of the requirement. Indian Navy prefers planes with Folding wings, which carrier born plane used by Navy did not have folding wings?

If it was a requirement Trappier wouldn't be in talks to sell 57 Rafale to the IN.

 

[smestarz]

The Indian navy has just floated the RFI, as late as Jan 2017, there is still time for testing etc.
And Trappier had been talking a lot for many years, and if we were to believe him than the Rafale deal would have been signed before 2014.

So the point is that none of the plane actually Qualify 100% to the RFI. They come close. but dont qualify,. Out of the planes that are being used on carrier, there are 4 planes, Namely F/A-18, MiG-29K, Rafale and Su-33. Out of these Su-33 is no longer in production and that leaves America with their F/A-18, France with their Rafale M and MiG-29K with more improvements. But since Indian navy is using MiG-29K and yet they are providing RFI for another plane that might leave F/A-18 and Rafale.

By the way, Dassault did say that they knew that Korean might go for F-35 but still they did apply did they not? So Trappier is just trying his best. Rafale has its advantages, but F/A-18 might have an edge as India recently has purchased a lot from Boeing, and further that might add commonality for F-414 Englne which will also be used for Tejas..

If it was a requirement Trappier wouldn't be in talks to sell 57 Rafale to the IN.

 

[WolfPack86]

France will continue to beef up Indian Military Arsenal with fighter jets and submarines
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Under new President Emmanuel Macron, France will continue to beef up the Indian military arsenal with fighter jets and submarines. French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation and state-owned shipbuilder DCNS are in fact negotiating new deals with the Indian government for the sale of their Rafale multi-role aircraft and diesel-electric attack Scorpene-class submarine respectively.

Last Sunday, coinciding with Macron’s inauguration, Dassault Aviation chief executive Eric Trappier revealed to French daily Sud-Ouest that its company was talking to India about the sale of a further 57 Rafales.

Last September, Dassault Aviation secured an US$8.8 billion contract to supply the Indian Air Force with 36 Rafale jets. It is said that, once inducted, they will form two squadrons. One will be stationed in the state of Haryana, near the Pakistani border, and the other in West Bengal to face possible threats posed by China on the eastern front.

The new batch of 57 Rafale aircraft is intended for the Indian Navy, which must still develop the aviation complex for its domestically built aircraft carrier INS Vikrant. The Indian government says the new flattop will be delivered in December 2018, but a national auditor reported last year that it might not be combat-ready before 2023. New Delhi has weighed other options for a new fighter platform for its aircraft-carrier force, including Sweden’s Saab Gripen, the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and Russia’s MiG-29K.

India’s air force needs new warplanes to replace its aging fleet of 670 fighter jets, made up in large part of Russian-built Su-30MKI, MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes. In response, US defense giant Lockheed Martin is ready to transfer the production line of its F-16 combat aircraft to India, as Saab points to setting up a production platform in the South Asian country for its Gripen-E.

India is still mulling whether to finalize a deal with Russia to co-develop a fifth-generation fighter aircraft based on the stealthy Sukhoi PAK FA – which is completing development and testing – and upgrade its existing Su-30MKI fighters, according to recent Indian media reports.

New Scorpene subs

In addition to carrier-capable Rafales, New Delhi plans to strengthen its naval capabilities with the acquisition of three more Scorpene submarines. The Indian Navy is expected to commission two French-designed Scorpenes – the Kalvari and the Khanderi – by the end of the year. They have been constructed by Mumbai-based Mazagon Dock Ltd in cooperation with DCNS as part of a $3.5 billion deal signed in 2005 to build jointly six Scorpene-class submarines.

It is worth noting that India’s Scorpenes will be equipped with BrahMos anti-ship cruise missiles. In March, the Indian Navy successfully tested this kind of supersonic projectile from the Kalvari submarine.

The purchase of Scorpenes will help India increase its asymmetric capabilities vis-à-vis China. In numerical and qualitative terms, New Delhi’s submarine fleet cannot compete with that of Beijing. The People’s Liberation Army Navy can deploy 67 submarines, of which nine are nuclear-powered. In contrast, the Indian Navy now has 13 conventionally powered and two nuclear-powered submarines, according to data from Global Firepower 2017 and the Nuclear Threat Initiative.

For its part, France is trying to snatch ever-larger shares of the Indian defense market, challenging in particular Russia’s traditional role as New Delhi’s top arms supplier. Over the past decade, Russian arms transfers to India have totaled $22 billion, while France’s military-related deliveries to the Asian giant have reached $550 billion, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute reports.

The French-Russian competition to expand presence in the high-growth Asian-Pacific defense market is not only focused on India, but also on Southeast Asian countries. For instance, Dassault Aviation is in talks with Malaysia over the delivery of 18 Rafales in a deal valued at about $2 billion.

The Royal Malaysian Air Force aims to replace its outdated fleet of Russian MiG-29 combat aircraft. The Russian Su-35 is also a contender in the bidding process, as well as the Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen.

Many competitors for France

France and India are forging a solid industrial defense partnership that suits both nations’ interests. Paris is keen to become a prominent arms provider in the Indo-Pacific region, while New Delhi is committed to modernizing its weaponry to counter potential challenges from China and Pakistan.

It remains to be seen, however, whether Rafale and Scorpene programs will meet the expectations of Paris and New Delhi in the near future, given that French defense producers have to deal with many competitors in the Asia-Pacific region and the Indian rearmament scheme lags behind that of China, both financially and conceptually.
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=262142

 

[smestarz]

Seems Eric Trappier is trying to raise the stock price of Dassault aviation and related companies, with giving false "revelations"

It is official that Indian navy has sent an RFI for Carrier based planes,. and the RFI is in public domain since Jan 2017, Already many companies have replied to RFI inculding MiG, Dassault, and Boeing to name a few.

Now, "talking to india about Sale of 57 Rafales" either might be Eric trappier dreaming about it, or simply lying, or another thing maybe that there is some back channel discussion which should not be there when RFI is issued for the same.. Anyway, Eric Trappiers revelations usually come as BS.

And when it comes to Scorpenes, now its an older model and already compromised. I doubt India would go for more Scorpenes with their security already compromised thanks to lethargic DCNS

France will continue to beef up Indian Military Arsenal with fighter jets and submarines
If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Under new President Emmanuel Macron, France will continue to beef up the Indian military arsenal with fighter jets and submarines. French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation and state-owned shipbuilder DCNS are in fact negotiating new deals with the Indian government for the sale of their Rafale multi-role aircraft and diesel-electric attack Scorpene-class submarine respectively.

Last Sunday, coinciding with Macron’s inauguration, Dassault Aviation chief executive Eric Trappier revealed to French daily Sud-Ouest that its company was talking to India about the sale of a further 57 Rafales.

Last September, Dassault Aviation secured an US$8.8 billion contract to supply the Indian Air Force with 36 Rafale jets. It is said that, once inducted, they will form two squadrons. One will be stationed in the state of Haryana, near the Pakistani border, and the other in West Bengal to face possible threats posed by China on the eastern front.

The new batch of 57 Rafale aircraft is intended for the Indian Navy, which must still develop the aviation complex for its domestically built aircraft carrier INS Vikrant. The Indian government says the new flattop will be delivered in December 2018, but a national auditor reported last year that it might not be combat-ready before 2023. New Delhi has weighed other options for a new fighter platform for its aircraft-carrier force, including Sweden’s Saab Gripen, the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and Russia’s MiG-29K.

India’s air force needs new warplanes to replace its aging fleet of 670 fighter jets, made up in large part of Russian-built Su-30MKI, MiG-21 and MiG-27 planes. In response, US defense giant Lockheed Martin is ready to transfer the production line of its F-16 combat aircraft to India, as Saab points to setting up a production platform in the South Asian country for its Gripen-E.

India is still mulling whether to finalize a deal with Russia to co-develop a fifth-generation fighter aircraft based on the stealthy Sukhoi PAK FA – which is completing development and testing – and upgrade its existing Su-30MKI fighters, according to recent Indian media reports.

New Scorpene subs

In addition to carrier-capable Rafales, New Delhi plans to strengthen its naval capabilities with the acquisition of three more Scorpene submarines. The Indian Navy is expected to commission two French-designed Scorpenes – the Kalvari and the Khanderi – by the end of the year. They have been constructed by Mumbai-based Mazagon Dock Ltd in cooperation with DCNS as part of a $3.5 billion deal signed in 2005 to build jointly six Scorpene-class submarines.

It is worth noting that India’s Scorpenes will be equipped with BrahMos anti-ship cruise missiles. In March, the Indian Navy successfully tested this kind of supersonic projectile from the Kalvari submarine.

The purchase of Scorpenes will help India increase its asymmetric capabilities vis-à-vis China. In numerical and qualitative terms, New Delhi’s submarine fleet cannot compete with that of Beijing. The People’s Liberation Army Navy can deploy 67 submarines, of which nine are nuclear-powered. In contrast, the Indian Navy now has 13 conventionally powered and two nuclear-powered submarines, according to data from Global Firepower 2017 and the Nuclear Threat Initiative.

For its part, France is trying to snatch ever-larger shares of the Indian defense market, challenging in particular Russia’s traditional role as New Delhi’s top arms supplier. Over the past decade, Russian arms transfers to India have totaled $22 billion, while France’s military-related deliveries to the Asian giant have reached $550 billion, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute reports.

The French-Russian competition to expand presence in the high-growth Asian-Pacific defense market is not only focused on India, but also on Southeast Asian countries. For instance, Dassault Aviation is in talks with Malaysia over the delivery of 18 Rafales in a deal valued at about $2 billion.

The Royal Malaysian Air Force aims to replace its outdated fleet of Russian MiG-29 combat aircraft. The Russian Su-35 is also a contender in the bidding process, as well as the Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen.

Many competitors for France

France and India are forging a solid industrial defense partnership that suits both nations’ interests. Paris is keen to become a prominent arms provider in the Indo-Pacific region, while New Delhi is committed to modernizing its weaponry to counter potential challenges from China and Pakistan.

It remains to be seen, however, whether Rafale and Scorpene programs will meet the expectations of Paris and New Delhi in the near future, given that French defense producers have to deal with many competitors in the Asia-Pacific region and the Indian rearmament scheme lags behind that of China, both financially and conceptually.
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=262142

 

[Armand2REP]

Seems Eric Trappier is trying to raise the stock price of Dassault aviation and related companies, with giving false "revelations"

It is official that Indian navy has sent an RFI for Carrier based planes,. and the RFI is in public domain since Jan 2017, Already many companies have replied to RFI inculding MiG, Dassault, and Boeing to name a few.

Now, "talking to india about Sale of 57 Rafales" either might be Eric trappier dreaming about it, or simply lying, or another thing maybe that there is some back channel discussion which should not be there when RFI is issued for the same.. Anyway, Eric Trappiers revelations usually come as BS.

And when it comes to Scorpenes, now its an older model and already compromised. I doubt India would go for more Scorpenes with their security already compromised thanks to lethargic DCNS

Of course he is dreaming about it but that is a far cry from lying to pump up stock prices, which is illegal. You will be surprised with how much we are cooperating.

 

[smestarz]

Then I guess your govt knows better in this regard calling RFI as "being in discussion"
France is co-operating, and you would not be surprised with how much we are paying

Of course he is dreaming about it but that is a far cry from lying to pump up stock prices, which is illegal. You will be surprised with how much we are cooperating.

 

[WolfPack86]

Dassault Aviation hopes talks in 2017 to sell more Rafale to India
By Reuters | GENEVA | 21 May 2017 18:17 pm

GENEVA (Reuters) - French plane-maker Dassault Aviation SA hopes to start discussions with India by the end of the year for additional sales of its Rafale fighter jet, before full fledge negotiations in 2018, Chief executive Eric Trappier said in Geneva on Sunday.

He also said the company was awaiting more information on Canada's search for fighter planes.



(Reporting by Cyril Altmeyer, writing by Sybille de La Hamaide; Editing by Elaine Hardcastle)

http://in.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idINKBN18H0LD


I did say about this
http://*****************/threads/rafale-deal-signed.56201/page-263#post-560850

Enjoy.. all the hype on Single Engine and Dassault team and GOI keeps doing what they always do.. make more deals..
http://*****************/threads/rafale-deal-signed.56201/page-285#post-563635
Note: Above statements written by Parikrama a Indian Defence Forum member i am posting links above

 

[WolfPack86]

Dassault Aviation hopes talks in 2017 to sell more Rafale to India
GENEVA (Reuters) - French plane-maker Dassault Aviation SA hopes to start discussions with India by the end of the year for additional sales of its Rafale fighter jet, before full fledge negotiations in 2018, Chief executive Eric Trappier said in Geneva on Sunday.

He also said the company was awaiting more information on Canada's search for fighter planes.

(Reporting by Cyril Altmeyer, writing by Sybille de La Hamaide; Editing by Elaine Hardcastle)

(This story has not been edited by Business Standard staff and is auto-generated from a syndicated feed.)
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...sell-more-rafale-to-india-117052100560_1.html

 

[Tarun Kumar]

40-45 new rafales for airforce is a certainty. Rest is all speculation

 

[WolfPack86]

Dassault to start talks by year end offering 57 jets for the Indian Navy's Carrier Platforms
French planemaker Dassault Aviation SA hopes to start talks with India by the end of the year for additional sales of its Rafale fighter jet, before full negotiations in 2018, Chief Executive Eric Trappier said in Geneva on Sunday.

In India, where Dassault Aviation signed a long-awaited contract for 36 Rafale fighter jets in September 2016, Trappier said it was working on an additional order for the air force as well as a tender for 57 carrier borne fighter jets for the Indian Navy.

India will induct INS Vikrant, a new aircraft carrier within 2 years and a third nuclear powered carrier is on the drawing board. These platforms will require potent flying weapons and Rafale fills the gap.

The Indian government says the new flattop will be delivered in December 2018, but a national auditor reported last year that it might not be combat-ready before 2023. New Delhi has weighed other options for a new fighter platform for its aircraft-carrier force, including Sweden’s Saab Gripen, the Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet and Russia’s MiG-29K.

American Company Boeing is also competing the Indian naval deal by offering their FA-18 Super Hornets.

"There is no negotiation, we are not there yet: we are waiting for a one-to-one discussion," Trappier said, hoping to start talks this year before full-fledged negotiations in 2018.
http://www.defencenews.in/article.aspx?id=262183

 

[Kay]

IAF has no good options. 40 squadron strength is unachievable. Hope it has learnt the benfits of supporting indigenous projects now.
Let's see the options:-
1. Rafale - Too costly. Opposition ignored direct GTG deal because of protracted negotiations and small numbers. Further deals will invite criticism, scrutiny and allegations.
2. Gripen - Again too costly. Ditching F-16 will have negative reactions from Trump.
3. F-16 - Operated by Pakistan, replaced by rest of the world. After Trump, will not even bring the jobs by moving production line to India.
4. F-18 - Twin engine - slightly less costly than Rafale (?). Old airframe - getting replaced. Good for strike, naval and EW roles - mediocre in A2A.
5. Mig 35 - Cheap Mig 29s with thrust vectoring but downgraded radar. Short legs, not much use in strike role, good in A2A.
6. Mirage 2000 - Second hand from Qatar and France - Cheap and easy to procure fast - very costly to upgrade.
7. Mig 29 - Second hand from Malaysia and other countries - cheap to procure...can be procured fast.. upgrades cheaper than Mirages
8. Sukhoi 30s - Already have too many.. heavy plane..heavy maintenance
9. Sukhoi 35 - Same category as Su 30..will create logistics problem with no real benefits
10. PakFA - Too much for ToT. Still in development. Very costly and high-end heavy aircraft.
11. F-35 - Sand trap...death spiral..end of all indigenous projects and independent foreign policy - will make India to US what Pakistan is to China
12. Euro fighter - Dying product every one is replacing..also costly

The best of bad options seem to be buying Mig 35s and upgrading them with AESA radars.

 

[BON PLAN]

by the time the last Rafale is delivered, we might expect Pakistan and China both to be inducting 5th Gen planes. So its "great" to be facing 5th Gen planes with 4th Gen rafale..
cannon fodder

There is only one 5th gen plane in the world so far (according to the LM propaganda) : F22.

All the others are failing or not on duty.

 

[BON PLAN]

With your suggested numbers, IAF will end up overshooting its expense in quest for getting numbers.
The importance of single engine planes are Short range fighter, and interceptor,
It becomes very important part of defending important cities and industrial points,
So, in my view,
We already have a lot of Su-30 MKI, we should not get more,
Max 126 PAKFA / FGFA (these would take over some jobs from Su-30 MKI and also from Jaguars and Mirage 2000. The job or Mirage 2000 may go to Rafale soon.
36 Rafales
Rest of the numbers made by Tejas Mk 1A ad MK2
Also by2030 we should expect AMCA coming in replacing the MiG-29 in IAF service along with Jaguars.

You were forced to close the hole below your nose when India ordered 36 first Rafale.

So we gained some months of tranquility.

Now I hope India to clinch another deal to shut your mouth definitively.

With no offense.

 

[Armand2REP]

Egypt is the first foreign operator of Rafale to take it into combat wiping out Libyan Daesch camps. If they can get it operational that fast, India can be ready for ops in 90 days.