Know Your 'Rafale'

[lcafanboy]

Rafale does not have GaN radar at the moment

India will have Rafales F3R which will have GaN.

 

[Cutting Edge]

It doesn't make much sense for India to pay $2 billion for customization and order only 36. I feel its better to got for more Rafales and cancel the single engine fighter bids. Instead order more of our own LCA and concentrate on improving it. Even if IAF thinks the LCA is inferior, Rafales and SU30 MKI will always be the front liners and LCA will be in a supporting role.

India should understand that US and Russians dint start building F22 s, F35s and Sukhois from the word go. It took them long and hard way to achieve it.

We are going to buy lot more Rafale under MII, but we also need single engine fighter too in large numbers for our western neighbour. We need healthy ratio of Heavy - Medium - Light aircraft according to IAF's doctrine.

Tejas is progressing well in recent time, but if we look at ADA's pervious record, things can go either way. On top of that HAL's mass production capability to deliver the aircraft on time is a big concern as well.

Don't forget by 2022 all our MIGs will be retired. Having two separate lines for single engine aircraft will safeguard us from any mishaps by HAL. So DA-Reliance joint venture making Rafale, some other private company making single engine aircraft and good old HAL making Tejas. A win win situation for IAF.

Note that currently single engine aircraft procurement is going really slow. So anything can happen. GOI might go with only Tejas MK1A and MK2. Wait few more months to get a clear picture.

 

[Cutting Edge]

Sorry! double post my mistake.

 

[lcafanboy]

Many 4.5 gen aircraft have sensor fusion : gripen has it , Typhoon has it , F-18E has it

Do they have electronic stealth? Saw tooth structures on body, active radar cancellation, distinctive front stealth design, covered engine blades with light S-air ducts, stealthy intakes. Just look at Rafales and compare it with fighters you have mentioned see the design difference.

 

[StealthFlanker]

India will have Rafales F3R which will have GaN.

Rafale F3R doesnot have GaN radar , it only change from PESA to AESA

Rafale F3. Since 2008, all Rafales have been delivered in the F3 standard, and most have now been upgraded to it. Initial changes added the ability to carry French ASMP-A air-launched nuclear missiles, allowing the Rafale to replace the Mirage 2000N in that nuclear strike role. Other modifications include full integration with the Reco NG reconnaissance pod, implementation of all currently planned modes for the RBE2 radar, anti-ship attack with the Exocet or follow-on ANF, and support for an improved tanker pack.

Further changes were forthcoming within F3. Full integration with Thales’ Damocles

surveillance and laser targeting pod was executed, and Damocles-equipped Rafales were used over Libya in 2011. The current standard is F3.3, and F3.4 is expected to debut in early 2014.

The Rafale’s radar took a quantum leap forward as of Rafale #C137, with Thales’ RBE2-AA AESA radar replacing the mechanically-scanned RBE2 array on previous aircraft. The new radar has hundreds of active T/R modules, and involves about 400,000 lines of code all by itself. This compares to about 2 million lines of code for the aircraft’s entire original avionics suite. In exchange, AESA radars generally create roughly 2x-3x better range or resolution than current PESA technologies. Note that older Rafales don’t currently have AESA radars, but they’re expected to see upgrades under a EUR 1+ billion F3R program.

Nuclear ASMP-A capability is irrelevant to exports, but the addition of an AESA radar and full independent precision strike capability will go a long way toward making the Rafale more competitive with challengers like American F-16/15/18s, Saab’s JAS-39NG Gripen, EADS’ Eurofighter Typhoon, and the oncoming F-35 program.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Do they have electronic stealth? Saw tooth structures on body, active radar cancellation, distinctive front stealth design, covered engine blades with light S-air ducts, stealthy intakes. Just look at Rafales and compare it with fighters you have mentioned see the design difference.

electronic stealth and active cancellation are the same and it ways too overrated , in reality it not that much different from cover pulse jamming, not all that effective against any radars with decent processing power.
Typhoon , F-18E/F , Gripen all have S-duct

 

[lcafanboy]

Rafales also have conformal Stealth bays if required for stealthy missions. Also they have conformal Fuel tanks to enhance range for stealthy mission. Of course these take a toll on aerodynamics but see F-35 it is a fat turkey which can easily be shot down and are aerodynamic disaster in aviation jargon.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Rafale F3R doesnot have GaN radar , it only change from PESA to AESA

Thales is definitely working on a GaN enhanced version of both Spectra and RBE2. When we get is not yet disclosed. Given that as pointed earlier Thales just unveiled a naval GaN AESA radar , the technology is already there. I would not be surprised at all if Indian Rafales were the first Rafales to sport a GaN AESA radar in september 2019. The contrary would be a huge disappointment !

 

[Tactical Frog]

Thales is definitely working on a GaN enhanced version of both Spectra and RBE2. When we get is not yet disclosed. Given that as pointed earlier Thales just unveiled a naval GaN AESA radar , the technology is already there. I would not be surprised at all if Indian Rafales were the first Rafales to sport a GaN AESA radar in september 2019. The contrary would be a huge disappointment !

Well if the first batch of Rafale does not have it in 2019, there is hope for 2020 .. that is when the French Armée de l'Air is finally getting new Rafales after a very long time. I would really wish to read what is in the contract with IAF. The long delay for the first deliveries allows for some good surprises.

 

[StealthFlanker]

Rafales also have conformal Stealth bays if required for stealthy missions.

1/ Rafale does not have stealth weapon bays, if you talking about enclosed weapon pod like the one on F-18 ASH then those pods are not available at the moment either.
2/ an aircraft with enclosed weapon pod doesnot have lower RCS than a clean one so if Rafale is not a VLO aircraft in clean configuration , it will not be a VLO aircraft with enclosed weapon pod. The only thing those pod did is reduce the number of corner reflector when you carrying weapons ( since bombs and missiles have fins that are perpendicular to each others ) , the the pod itself also made a corner with the pylons , so basically you still get much bigger reflection compared to a clean aircraft

Also they have conformal Fuel tanks to enhance range for stealthy mission

Purpose of CFT isn't to reduce RCS but rather reduce drag and free up weapon pylons

Of course these take a toll on aerodynamics but see F-35 it is a fat turkey which can easily be shot down and are aerodynamic disaster in aviation jargon.

You can call it a turkey/ aerodynamic disaster if you want , without a data from flight manual that statement is nothing rather than hot air.Judging from F-35 relaxed KPP and F-16 flight manual ,F-35 is quite similar to F-16 in term of sustained turn rate ,and since it has higher AoA limit , it should get better CL max => better instantaneous turn rate. Subsonic acceleration of F-35A is better than most 4 gen aircraft including Su-35 , F-16.Which mean it will be very good in vertical scissor. Is it the most maneuver aircraft out there ? likely not. But calling it an aerodynamic disaster is simply ignorance.
Oh, and if you put EWPs and CFTs on Rafale it will performance much worse than F-35

 

[StealthFlanker]

Thales is definitely working on a GaN enhanced version of both Spectra and RBE2. When we get is not yet disclosed. Given that as pointed earlier Thales just unveiled a naval GaN AESA radar , the technology is already there. I would not be surprised at all if Indian Rafales were the first Rafales to sport a GaN AESA radar in september 2019. The contrary would be a huge disappointment !

Iam not saying Rafale will never get GaN radar. If we were to be fair , Rafale doesnot have GaN AESA at the moment , it may have it in future but that could be true for others fighter too

 

[Rahul Singh]

Does that also include corrupt A-holes ACM Tyagi and also NAK Browne the fixers?
Everyone has an idea more or less what Tyagi did and surely he cannot say that it was a political masters because his cousins ensured their stake in that, NAK Browne , well the enquiry into Pilatus deal and all his misdeeds are are available in open forum now.
I let you think about that and then you might

BTW, IAF chief thinks that India has access to immense wealth and all the defence fund allotted is for IAF only., Thats why I called him Chu**** And I dont feel bad about it at all.

I have respect for the soldiers and the low level officers who really put their lives at stake, and the jokers like the NAK Browne do so without any worry or fear since they are "highly respected" due to their high post.

If by that definition, why abuse even MMS. he ensured that india was looted and yet he was "INNOCENT" Why abuse Sonia or RG they are not even ministers.

There is fine line between criticism and abusing. When there is person who is holding a chair mandated by constitution there is certain degree of civility expected out of any critic for the respect that any concerned chair holds. That is the whole point.

 

[MrPresident]

Who told you that we are just buying 36 Rafales? The total numbers of Rafales will exceed 300 including Rafale M for Indian Navy.

I mean as of now, the govt has announced that they would buy 36. We can only speculate about the future orders. Our PM and DM are looking to save so it doesnt make sense to buy only 36 after paying a bomb for customization.

And 300?? If that is true India will end up spending all there defense budget on it for next 20 yrs and will have to shut the AMCA and FGFA project down (Which is a NO NO). We should be more realistic, I dont know where you got the info abt 300 aircrafts but it defies logic.

 

[Cutting Edge]

I mean as of now, the govt has announced that they would buy 36. We can only speculate about the future orders. Our PM and DM are looking to save so it doesnt make sense to buy only 36 after paying a bomb for customization.

And 300?? If that is true India will end up spending all there defense budget on it for next 20 yrs and will have to shut the AMCA and FGFA project down (Which is a NO NO). We should be more realistic, I dont know where you got the info abt 300 aircrafts but it defies logic.

Rumors are straight from horse's mouth (IAF Chief) and some reliable sources.

1) 300 is combined IAF and IN. IAF's number is something around 200 to 250. Rest is Navy.

2) we won't straight on first day order 300 planes. We will order in batches and stretch payment time.

3) In next 20 years we will have third largest economy and hance a third largest military budget. So money isn't a problem.

4) China is rapidly developing advance aircrafts. We are already lagging far behind China in numbers. In next 20 years they will have a massive fleet of 5th gen planes.

5) Our entire budget for LCA (30 years) was only $370 million so it is highly unlikely that we will spend billions on AMCA development and its mass production is many decades away.

6) FGFA is just a Russian pipe dream. When mighty USA is struggling with 5th gen tech, Russian capability to produce 'real' 5th gen fighter is questionable at best. Not to mention Russia's recent behavior towards India. Even if we do somehow get FGFA it won't be more than 100 to 150 planes.(even less according to some reports)

7) Rafale is the only practical alternative for IAF. Remember if war breaks out between India and Pak-China (highly unlikely but still ) what will we use against them? Mig-21?(LOL) The truth is we do not have any capable jet in our inventory besides MKI.

 

[MrPresident]

Rumors are straight from horse's mouth (IAF Chief) and some reliable sources.

1) 300 is combined IAF and IN. IAF's number is something around 200 to 250. Rest is Navy.

2) we won't straight on first day order 300 planes. We will order in batches and stretch payment time.

3) In next 20 years we will have third largest economy and hance a third largest military budget. So money isn't a problem.

4) China is rapidly developing advance aircrafts. We are already lagging far behind China in numbers. In next 20 years they will have a massive fleet of 5th gen planes.

5) Our entire budget for LCA (30 years) was only $370 million so it is highly unlikely that we will spend billions on AMCA development and its mass production is many decades away.

6) FGFA is just a Russian pipe dream. When mighty USA is struggling with 5th gen tech, Russian capability to produce 'real' 5th gen fighter is questionable at best. Not to mention Russia's recent behavior towards India. Even if we do somehow get FGFA it won't be more than 100 to 150 planes.(even less according to some reports)

7) Rafale is the only practical alternative for IAF. Remember if war breaks out between India and Pak-China (highly unlikely but still ) what will we use against them? Mig-21?(LOL) The truth is we do not have any capable jet in our inventory besides MKI.

1. We can always dream of having big things but are we being realistic here with the order of 300?
2. Even if you order whole bunch of 300 in one shot, Govt wont be paying in full to start with, the payments will be made in batches.
3. Money wouldn't be a problem only if we want all the money to go to company abroad which will not help in improving local Know how.
4. Exactly the reason why we need to concentrate on Co-developing FGFA and start the work on AMCA.
5. There is a difference between R&D budget and production budget, LCA for a piece cost btw 30 to 40 million to manufacture (Including parts from abroad). US is spending 100s of Billion to develop a 5th gen and still trying to perfect it and we are talking abt the companies who have been developing aircraft for 80 years now. What makes you think we with an experience of 20 to 25 years can develop a 5th gen aircraft with a puny budget?
6. Everybody looks after there own interest be it India, US or Russia. FGFA is our only real shot at 5th Gen tech and aircrafts. No country in the world have perfected 5th Gen tech. USA with massive capital is struggling with it. The only other country in the world which has the capability to build a 5th gen aircraft is Russia (I mean without stealing or copying). If we can start collaborating with them and learn some nuances from them it will help in AMCA development.
7. Rafale is an alternative, India should go for more of them but 300 is not practical and cancel the single engine fighter tender so the money will go to LCA production lines and AMCA.

 

[Cutting Edge]

1. We can always dream of having big things but are we being realistic here with the order of 300?

Yes that is more realistic than fictional FGFA

3. Money wouldn't be a problem only if we want all the money to go to company abroad which will not help in improving local Know how.

Yes that is true but we don't have a domestic MMRCA option do we? I'd too would like India to be 100% self reliant on defence tech but that doesn't match with the ground realities.

4. Exactly the reason why we need to concentrate on Co-developing FGFA.

What reason? money going to foreign country? You do realise that FGFA is Pak Fa with slight modifications. With Pak fa(or you may call it FGFA) money will go to Russia

5. There is a difference between R&D budget and production budget, LCA for a piece cost btw 30 to 40 million to manufacture (Including parts from abroad). US is spending 100s of Billion to develop a 5th gen and still trying to perfect it and we are talking abt the companies who have been developing aircraft for 80 years now. What makes you think we with an experience of 20 to 25 years can develop a 5th gen aircraft with a puny budget?

Exactly why we need Rafale to get a breathing space until AMCA arrives.

The only other country in the world which has the capability to build a 5th gen aircraft is Russia

Russians have a flourishing aviation sector but 5th gen is out of their league. Fact is Russian themselves aren't going to induct Pak Fa more than token one or two squads. It speaks volumes about their confidence in the program.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...tealth-fighter-might-have-fatal-flaw-or-16628
http://www.globalintelligencetrust....AK-FA-An-Impressive-Plane-Plagued-With-Issues
http://www.businessinsider.in/Russi...eration-in-name-only/articleshow/51131234.cms

Pak Fa programme is nothing but smoke and mirrors to milk money from India.

7. Rafale is an alternative, India should go for more of them but 300 is not practical and cancel the single engine fighter tender so the money will go to LCA production lines and AMCA.

Problem with LCA isn't money but incompetency of HAL and lack of proper supply chain.

 

[WolfPack86]

India Clears First Payment for Rafale Fighter Jets to France

India has cleared the first payment of 15 per cent to seal the deal for 36 Rafale combat aircraft with the French Government.

Sources told India Strategic that the instalment was cleared recently, and as per the contract, the French Government will deliver the first few aircraft within three years, that is sometime in 2019. India has though requested France to speed the delivery to the extent possible.

Industry sources in Paris also said that aircraft manufacturer Dassault had started working with its partners well in advance towards the Indian requirement, particularly as the Indian Air Force had asked for some specific modifications.

Dassault leads the consortium with Safran and Thales doing the engines and electronic systems and suites. In fact, the latter two have higher share each than Dasssault which designs, integrates and markets combat and civil aircraft.
http://defencenews.in/article/India-Clears-First-Payment-for-Rafale-Fighter-Jets-to-France-239710

 

[MrPresident]

Yes that is more realistic than fictional FGFA



Yes that is true but we don't have a domestic MMRCA option do we? I'd too would like India to be 100% self reliant on defence tech but that doesn't match with the ground realities.



What reason? money going to foreign country? You do realise that FGFA is Pak Fa with slight modifications. With Pak fa(or you may call it FGFA) money will go to Russia



Exactly why we need Rafale to get a breathing space until AMCA arrives.



Russians have a flourishing aviation sector but 5th gen is out of their league. Fact is Russian themselves aren't going to induct Pak Fa more than token one or two squads. It speaks volumes about their confidence in the program.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...tealth-fighter-might-have-fatal-flaw-or-16628
http://www.globalintelligencetrust....AK-FA-An-Impressive-Plane-Plagued-With-Issues
http://www.businessinsider.in/Russi...eration-in-name-only/articleshow/51131234.cms

Pak Fa programme is nothing but smoke and mirrors to milk money from India.



Problem with LCA isn't money but incompetency of HAL and lack of proper supply chain.

I would suggest you go thru few of the stuff which is exclusively built for T-50. Also you are contradicting ur self. On one side you are telling that Chinese are inducting 5th Gen aircrafts and your formula is to have more Rafales??

Even US 5th Gen program have loads of issues, one has to work thru it not just expect everyone to sell there tech.even though the money we spend on FGFA will go to Russia, we will atleast be able to learn nuisances of building 5th Gen aircraft. Think of it as an investment, I dont expect AMCA before 2030. Till then FGFA is our best shot.

Also ru telling that by just giving money to french we will be "competent" enough to build AMCA a 5th Gen aircraft?

 

[lcafanboy]

1. We can always dream of having big things but are we being realistic here with the order of 300?
2. Even if you order whole bunch of 300 in one shot, Govt wont be paying in full to start with, the payments will be made in batches.
3. Money wouldn't be a problem only if we want all the money to go to company abroad which will not help in improving local Know how.
4. Exactly the reason why we need to concentrate on Co-developing FGFA and start the work on AMCA.
5. There is a difference between R&D budget and production budget, LCA for a piece cost btw 30 to 40 million to manufacture (Including parts from abroad). US is spending 100s of Billion to develop a 5th gen and still trying to perfect it and we are talking abt the companies who have been developing aircraft for 80 years now. What makes you think we with an experience of 20 to 25 years can develop a 5th gen aircraft with a puny budget?
6. Everybody looks after there own interest be it India, US or Russia. FGFA is our only real shot at 5th Gen tech and aircrafts. No country in the world have perfected 5th Gen tech. USA with massive capital is struggling with it. The only other country in the world which has the capability to build a 5th gen aircraft is Russia (I mean without stealing or copying). If we can start collaborating with them and learn some nuances from them it will help in AMCA development.
7. Rafale is an alternative, India should go for more of them but 300 is not practical and cancel the single engine fighter tender so the money will go to LCA production lines and AMCA.

More than 300 Rafales will come whether you like it or not or whether you believe it or not. IAF total fighter requirement is around 550.

We're already 10 sq short of sanctioned strength of 42 plus 6sq of mig 21, 3sq of Jaguars plus around 100 Mig 27s will be retired by 2022 to 2025. Now add all up plus govt. is mulling sanctioned strength of IAF to 45 squadron.

Navy's immediate needs are 80 Rafales for IAC-1 and even Vikramaditya aircraft carriers plus we will be making IAC-1 sister ship in fast track mode by 2025 to make 3 carrier fleet by 2027 Vishal will come post 2035 only.

Add to the fact the IAF will vacate Andaman and Naval air force will take care of it. Mig 29Ks will be used for land based operations only.

LCA with all the goodies plus cost of manufacturing plant has shot up to around $50 million fly away cost plus imported stuff consumes forex in LCA too. Rafale fly away cost is $85 million with all the goodies and will be manufactured in India at Nagpur booosting local economy.

FGFA is still 10yrs away and we don't know final product and what will be Russia's attitude towards India.

Rafale will bring Ancilliary companies which will speed up AMCA which will come only by 2035 (till then we do need air force).

 

[Cutting Edge]

I would suggest you go thru few of the stuff which is exclusively built for T-50. Also you are contradicting ur self. On one side you are telling that Chinese are inducting 5th Gen aircrafts and your formula is to have more Rafales??

Even US 5th Gen program have loads of issues, one has to work thru it not just expect everyone to sell there tech.even though the money we spend on FGFA will go to Russia, we will atleast be able to learn nuisances of building 5th Gen aircraft. Think of it as an investment, I dont expect AMCA before 2030. Till then FGFA is our best shot.

]Also ru telling that by just giving money to french we will be "competent" enough to build AMCA a 5th Gen aircraft?

I am not telling anything, I am just stating the fact that MOD and IAF thinking seriously about buying 200+ Rafale behind closed doors. If it were upto me I would buy 10000+ B2 Spirit. LOL.

BTW Russia isn't willing to teach us anything about pak fa. Infact RUSSIA REFUSED INDIAN PILOTS TO FLY PROTOTYPE and that too AFTER PAYING MILLIONS. We have already paid money to learn. How much we have learn? No pilots other than Russian have even touched the plane yet and here you are dreaming about custom modifications (FGFA) and willing to give billions to Russia.

Yes giving money to French is getting results. Our Kaveri programme is revived. We are on our path to have an indigenous engine in few years, All thanks to French. Tell me how much engine tech or FBW tech we got from Russia after giving them billions and billions in defence deals. Why aren't we are sending our scientists to Russia to LEARN jet engines? If Russians don't want to share 4th gen tech what makes you think we will learn 5th gen tech from them.