Know Your 'Rafale'

[StealthFlanker]

There are several other high resolution photos of RBE-2 also show similar modules count

 

[BON PLAN]

There are several other high resolution photos of RBE-2 also show similar modules count

But taken when? 2011? 2012? = demonstrator or prototyp.

 

[BON PLAN]

For all the non Rafale Fanboys, and to be sure they have all the necessary info, to avoid them saying everything and especially anything...

About the Radar :
https://hushkit.net/2015/06/07/the-indomitable-squall-rafales-cutting-edge-radar/

About the program studies around the plane :

Note for the radar only : AMSAR, CARAA, DRAAMA, CANIMEDE, MELBA, MFA, TRAGEDAC.... some og them already closed, because finished.

 

[BON PLAN]

As far as i can remember , CARAA is a program to improve software of RBE-2 to better deal with ground target. No mentioned of GaN any where , do you have any source for your claim ?

Sorry. My mistake. It's anothe PEA (plan d'étude amont = early dev. program) called INCAS.

read this (sorry it's in french, but the important is at the end and easy to understand)

RADAR AESA: La France veut rester leader en Europe
Posted By: Bruno Etchenicon: octobre 16, 2014In: Non classéNo Comments
Email

Radar aéroporté de nouvelle génération : La DGA lance un nouveau programme d’étude amont

Fin septembre la DGA a annoncé, via un communiqué de presse, avoir signé un contrat de développement avec Thales, concernant des études sur la prochaine génération d’antenne active pour les radars aéroportés.
Ce contrat de 89 millions d’euros, qui doit s’étaler sur plusieurs années, est un programme d’étude amont (PEA) baptisé MELBAA. Il vise à préparer les nouvelles technologies qui seront appliquées dans les prochains Radars. Sont particulièrement visés deux programmes majeurs, comme le FCAS (Future Combat Aircraft System) franco-britannique, et une évolution du RBE-2 pour le Rafale.

Ce PEA devrait donner naissance à un démonstrateur technologique afin d’illustrer les avancées en matière d’antenne active, et plus concrètement dans les domaines des panneaux multifonctions, et des architectures modulaires des calculateurs.


Si aujourd’hui, la vélocité du Radar à antenne active permet de switcher très rapidement entre plusieurs modes de fonctionnements, ce PEA vise à permettre au radar de subdiviser ses antennes, en attribuant différentes tâches à chacune d’entre elles. Une partie pourrait scanner le ciel à la recherche d’hostiles, pendant que d’autres modules seraient utilisés pour de l’imagerie SAR, du brouillage actif, ou encore de la transmission de données.

En plus des panneaux multifonctions, la parallélisation des tâches implique un important besoin en termes de puissance de calcul. C’est pourquoi Thales doit identifier les moyens permettant de l’augmenter de manière conséquente, en gardant le maximum de compatibilité avec le RBE2 actuel, grâce à une architecture modulaire qui permettent, à l’instar de l’EMTI du Rafale, une tolérance à la panne et une bonne marge d’évolution en terme d’évolutivité et de gestion des obsolescences.

Le PEA MELBAA se basera sur les travaux déjà bien avancés du PEA INCAS, implémentant un nouveau type de modules d’émission en nitrure de gallium (GaN), permettant l’amélioration significative du rendement général de l’antenne.

 

[Alok Arya]

Than what finally concluded ? It is > 1000 T/R module in RBE2AA of GaAs type as of now . This will result in 130 - 150 km range for 1 m2 target . And Indian deal include GaN module ? GaN will provide weight , space , power saving and increase out put leading to increase range . Means range would be > 150 km for 1 m2 target . This means a new air to air missile better than metero would be required .

 

[Adioz]

I know zilch about AESA radars. I don't even know how they work, or what advantages Gallium-based modules have. Also, I have no knowledge about the relations between power O/P, range and target RCS, for radars in general.
Can anyone please point me in the right direction. I need to a gain a working knowledge about this so that I can decipher threads like these. Right now they seem like gibberish.
Thank you.

 

[StealthFlanker]

But taken when? 2011? 2012? = demonstrator or prototyp.

Taken in 2011 ,which is a good as you can get ( much newer than the modules count photo for APG-80 or APG-77, APG-79 ). Unless Rafale's nose some how getting bigger between 2011 and 2013 when the first AESA entered service , there is no reason to believe that RBE-2 will get more T/R modules Even if the development of T/R modules in France advanced significantly by that time and you can have smaller T/R modules, it very unlikely that RBE-2 modules count will raise a lot ( or at all) since too tightly packed T/R modules will just lead to horrible mutual coupling and reduce system performance overall

 

[StealthFlanker]

For all the non Rafale Fanboys, and to be sure they have all the necessary info, to avoid them saying everything and especially anything...

About the Radar :
https://hushkit.net/2015/06/07/the-indomitable-squall-rafales-cutting-edge-radar/

About the program studies around the plane :

Note for the radar only : AMSAR, CARAA, DRAAMA, CANIMEDE, MELBA, MFA, TRAGEDAC.... some og them already closed, because finished.

Do you have official sources about GANIMEDE , DEDIRA and INCAS such as detail of improvement , development timeline and so on ?

Sorry. My mistake. It's anothe PEA (plan d'étude amont = early dev. program) called INCAS.

read this (sorry it's in french, but the important is at the end and easy to understand)

RADAR AESA: La France veut rester leader en Europe
Posted By: Bruno Etchenicon: octobre 16, 2014In: Non classéNo Comments
Email

Radar aéroporté de nouvelle génération : La DGA lance un nouveau programme d’étude amont

Fin septembre la DGA a annoncé, via un communiqué de presse, avoir signé un contrat de développement avec Thales, concernant des études sur la prochaine génération d’antenne active pour les radars aéroportés.
Ce contrat de 89 millions d’euros, qui doit s’étaler sur plusieurs années, est un programme d’étude amont (PEA) baptisé MELBAA. Il vise à préparer les nouvelles technologies qui seront appliquées dans les prochains Radars. Sont particulièrement visés deux programmes majeurs, comme le FCAS (Future Combat Aircraft System) franco-britannique, et une évolution du RBE-2 pour le Rafale.

Ce PEA devrait donner naissance à un démonstrateur technologique afin d’illustrer les avancées en matière d’antenne active, et plus concrètement dans les domaines des panneaux multifonctions, et des architectures modulaires des calculateurs.


Si aujourd’hui, la vélocité du Radar à antenne active permet de switcher très rapidement entre plusieurs modes de fonctionnements, ce PEA vise à permettre au radar de subdiviser ses antennes, en attribuant différentes tâches à chacune d’entre elles. Une partie pourrait scanner le ciel à la recherche d’hostiles, pendant que d’autres modules seraient utilisés pour de l’imagerie SAR, du brouillage actif, ou encore de la transmission de données.

En plus des panneaux multifonctions, la parallélisation des tâches implique un important besoin en termes de puissance de calcul. C’est pourquoi Thales doit identifier les moyens permettant de l’augmenter de manière conséquente, en gardant le maximum de compatibilité avec le RBE2 actuel, grâce à une architecture modulaire qui permettent, à l’instar de l’EMTI du Rafale, une tolérance à la panne et une bonne marge d’évolution en terme d’évolutivité et de gestion des obsolescences.

Le PEA MELBAA se basera sur les travaux déjà bien avancés du PEA INCAS, implémentant un nouveau type de modules d’émission en nitrure de gallium (GaN), permettant l’amélioration significative du rendement général de l’antenne.

As far as i understand ( atleast in English version ) that part is speculation of the writter rather than official information. And the writter doesn't working for French MoD or Dassault either

Than what finally concluded ? It is > 1000 T/R module in RBE2AA of GaAs type as of now . This will result in 130 - 150 km range for 1 m2 target . And Indian deal include GaN module ? GaN will provide weight , space , power saving and increase out put leading to increase range . Means range would be > 150 km for 1 m2 target . This means a new air to air missile better than metero would be required .

RBE-2 currently got around 850 T/R modules , expect it to got anymore is just wishful thinking rather than logical expectation.
Meteor can probably reach at least 200-250 km at high altitude launch though

I know zilch about AESA radars. I don't even know how they work, or what advantages Gallium-based modules have. Also, I have no knowledge about the relations between power O/P, range and target RCS, for radars in general.
Can anyone please point me in the right direction. I need to a gain a working knowledge about this so that I can decipher threads like these. Right now they seem like gibberish.
Thank you.

These are good sources in my opinion , they explain the primary stuff decent enough:
https://basicsaboutaerodynamicsandavionics.wordpress.com/
http://www.radartutorial.eu/index.en.html

 

[lcafanboy]

Rafale news will be out soon. Both for Make In India and a bigger surprise of Rafale M order from Merignac, huge order. India has chosen the upgraded (83KN) engine Rafale which is going to meet multiple requirements including deck ops at 14 degree ski jump. The upgraded engine will curtail the limitation of MTOW which is present in M88-4E for marine version operating from STOBAR carriers. The other competitor to this SH but it's not considered by IN owing to even less compatibility for STOBAR ops.

IAF need is now 400jets and IN need for deck ops is 80 and shore based is another 60+. No single engine requirement for now, except LCA. And most importantly the IAF and IN fighter must also be MII fighter and a substantial benefit in TOT in terms of manufacturing and repair & overhaul ecosystem. Good work done by DA, France and India.

 

[BON PLAN]

Taken in 2011 ,which is a good as you can get ( much newer than the modules count photo for APG-80 or APG-77, APG-79 ). Unless Rafale's nose some how getting bigger between 2011 and 2013 when the first AESA entered service , there is no reason to believe that RBE-2 will get more T/R modules Even if the development of T/R modules in France advanced significantly by that time and you can have smaller T/R modules, it very unlikely that RBE-2 modules count will raise a lot ( or at all) since too tightly packed T/R modules will just lead to horrible mutual coupling and reduce system performance overall

The demonstrator used US sourced GaN T/R. And probably not the best of his class.....
Now a european source is fully operationnal. T/ may be smaller (thanks to the progress of all electronic components), so more T/R on a same dimension antenna.

 

[BON PLAN]

Do you have official sources about GANIMEDE , DEDIRA and INCAS such as detail of improvement , development timeline and so on ?

NO. It's secret. We only have some news from retired people from DA or Thales.... on some french forum.

 

[BON PLAN]

RBE-2 currently got around 850 T/R modules , expect it to got anymore is just wishful thinking rather than logical expectation.
Meteor can probably reach at least 200-250 km at high altitude launch though

As I said, RBE2AESA is said to have more than 1000 T/R...
Its actual range is far over 150km on a legacy fighter (Mirage 2000 or F16).
Meteor is officially presented to have a >100km range. But some, from MBDA, said that it's more than 150....

 

[StealthFlanker]

As I said, RBE2AESA is said to have more than 1000 T/R...
Its actual range is far over 150km on a legacy fighter (Mirage 2000 or F16).
The demonstrator used US sourced GaN T/R. And probably not the best of his class.....
Now a european source is fully operationnal. T/ may be smaller (thanks to the progress of all electronic components), so more T/R on a same dimension antenna.

Generally speaking T/R modules spacing is close to lamda/2 , spacing them too far apart and you have grating lobes , spacing them too close together and you have horrible mutual coupling.Not to mention that you have to deal with cooling problem as well. In the other words , regardless of how small your T/R modules is, you cannot keep put more and more and more on a certain aperture size.
To be frank here, I dont think you truly believe that RBE-2 got more than 1000 T/R modules either. Let put the physic aside and imagine this hypothetical scenario: if we did not discuss RBE-2 but rather APG-81 instead, let imagine Lockheed Martin claimed it have more than 2000 T/R modules but actual imagine count show that it only got 1626 T/R modules. Will you still believe that APG-81 got more than 2000 T/R modules or will you start calling LM a liar for false advertising?. We both know the answer to that.

NO. It's secret. We only have some news from retired people from DA or Thales.... on some french forum

Self-proclaimed expert is not the same as a real expert. The fact that you guys are gullible enough to believe
Picdelamir oil is an expert or whatever said by Picard are legit really make people doubt the credibility of your information.

 

[smestarz]

YES today its almost end of 2016 and yet Thales uses 2011 photo, so either it is representative, or Thaies is really short of money. No? I can understand about fanboy page, but what about THALES? they are the manufacturers and they are the ones who always tend to update their data and images to keep the websitte informative

1) The "Rafale fan boy" write : "However it is not known if the picture shows the actual radar. It could be an earlier prototype or a dummy.". ALL IS SAID my dear Smestrarz. No one here, even you, marvelous Smestarz, knows the truth.

2) Your source is dated february 2011 !!! (nearly 5 years ago...) first operationnal AESA was induced in 2013.... so 2011 picture is at best a prototyp.

Today RBE2AESA shows very good performance in all trials, and in all exercices against EF, F15, SU..... The range against a fighter excess all necessary to fire a Meteor. This is the reality.

 

[BON PLAN]

Generally speaking T/R modules spacing is close to lamda/2 , spacing them too far apart and you have grating lobes , spacing them too close together and you have horrible mutual coupling.Not to mention that you have to deal with cooling problem as well. In the other words , regardless of how small your T/R modules is, you cannot keep put more and more and more on a certain aperture size.
To be frank here, I dont think you truly believe that RBE-2 got more than 1000 T/R modules either. Let put the physic aside and imagine this hypothetical scenario: if we did not discuss RBE-2 but rather APG-81 instead, let imagine Lockheed Martin claimed it have more than 2000 T/R modules but actual imagine count show that it only got 1626 T/R modules. Will you still believe that APG-81 got more than 2000 T/R modules or will you start calling LM a liar for false advertising?. We both know the answer to that.

Self-proclaimed expert is not the same as a real expert. The fact that you guys are gullible enough to believe
Picdelamir oil is an expert or whatever said by Picard are legit really make people doubt the credibility of your information.

I do not believe anything about RBE2. I just aggregate informations that I gather here and there. And among these info, Thales saying RBE2 is made of more than 1000 T/R....

About Picdelamirandoil and Picard : I know nothing about Picard, but I've discussed a little with Pic... He is a retired electronic ingeneer of Dassault... He work on the Atlantic 2 arm system and radar. He work to developp the french nuclear simulator .... Read his background, it's interesting. I say without a doubt he is a specialist.

 

[BON PLAN]

YES today its almost end of 2016 and yet Thales uses 2011 photo, so either it is representative, or Thaies is really short of money. No? I can understand about fanboy page, but what about THALES? they are the manufacturers and they are the ones who always tend to update their data and images to keep the websitte informative

There is a fierce battle between all the electronic suppliers. AESA is a cutting edge technology. You don't want to give too much data to your competitors.
See the AESA captor : if I remember well the antenna is under a plastic red cap. Why? to protect T/R from dust or.... You know the answer.

At the end, what count?
- The AESA RBE2 is said to have more than 50% range increase against PESA one.
And PESA radar, tested by Swiss air force, was very satisfying.... so the AESA is.
- And the AESA RBE2 comply to the indian AF : they took it !

 

[StealthFlanker]

I do not believe anything about RBE2. I just aggregate informations that I gather here and there. And among these info, Thales saying RBE2 is made of more than 1000 T/R.

No , you dont just aggregate information, you cherry picked your information. Choose to repeat what you like to hear and ignore or play down what you don't like to hear. Among all these info , the claims that RBE2 got more than 1000 T/R modules is not only the earliest one but also the vaguest one. However, you choose to believe and repeat it instead of the much more recent modules count based on actual photos. Logically speaking any manufacturer would want to exaggerate their product so that they can sell more rather than vice versa

About Picdelamirandoil and Picard : I know nothing about Picard, but I've discussed a little with Pic... He is a retired electronic ingeneer of Dassault... He work on the Atlantic 2 arm system and radar. He work to developp the french nuclear simulator .... Read his background, it's interesting. I say without a doubt he is a specialist.

When i said you guys , i mean most Rafale fanboy. The fact that a large number of people took Picard serious is pretty laughable to me.His posts are always ridden with make-believe number and conclusion. Almost like a joke .About Picdelamirandoil, i only started to hear about him since i came here. However after reading some of his posts , i can say with 99% certain that he is not an expert, he made too many amateur mistakes to be an expert. With that being said, if you still want to believe him then feel free too.

There is a fierce battle between all the electronic suppliers. AESA is a cutting edge technology. You don't want to give too much data to your competitors.
See the AESA captor : if I remember well the antenna is under a plastic red cap. Why? to protect T/R from dust or.... You know the answer.

Only the very recent AESA have that plastic cover ,while that could be used to prevent the public from counting the modules. But i do not think that will make a different if a competitor really wants to estimate the number of T/R modules because as a general rule that i explained earlier . There is only so many/few T/R modules that you can put on an area.
When photos of APG-77 , APG-80 , RBE-2 , APG-81 , Zhuk-AE surfaced earlier. Manufacturer likely did not expect people to spend time to count the number of antenna on the aperture surface

At the end, what count?
- The AESA RBE2 is said to have more than 50% range increase against PESA one.
And PESA radar, tested by Swiss air force, was very satisfying.... so the AESA is.
- And the AESA RBE2 comply to the indian AF : they took it !

Did i said RBE2 is a horrible radar ? no i did not. But size matter. Every design has their own trade off

 

[BON PLAN]

No , you dont just aggregate information, you cherry picked your information. Choose to repeat what you like to hear and ignore or play down what you don't like to hear. Among all these info , the claims that RBE2 got more than 1000 T/R modules is not only the earliest one but also the vaguest one. However, you choose to believe and repeat it instead of the much more recent modules count based on actual photos. Logically speaking any manufacturer would want to exaggerate their product so that they can sell more rather than vice versa

I agree to be a Rafale fan boy, and that until... 1982 when I did a training course at DA.
The reality is between my position and yours ! Maybe I'm too optimistic, and you not enough.

 

[BON PLAN]

When i said you guys , i mean most Rafale fanboy. The fact that a large number of people took Picard serious is pretty laughable to me.His posts are always ridden with make-believe number and conclusion. Almost like a joke .About Picdelamirandoil, i only started to hear about him since i came here. However after reading some of his posts , i can say with 99% certain that he is not an expert, he made too many amateur mistakes to be an expert. With that being said, if you still want to believe him then feel free too.

The problem may be that he (Pic) try to be understandable by most people. As you.
And don't forget english is not our naturel language.

 

[BON PLAN]

Did i said RBE2 is a horrible radar ? no i did not. But size matter. Every design has their own trade off

No, you're right .