Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

Sir we have a great Dassault designed aircraft Tejas to worry about. I know we can buy more but we would like to take the design forward. As for systems to be integrated, we will try not to keep ourselves out of the loop. Further more I would like to add that even as we thought we can buy more, we realized our airforce cannot take on a combined attack by our neighborhood. God forbid this happens the missile systems are our only thrust forward.

At the end you will have more Tejas than Rafale.

My opinion is than India AF will have between 72 and 108 Rafale and 300+ Tejas.

Indian Navy is another thing.

 

[Filtercoffee]

At the end you will have more Tejas than Rafale.

My opinion is than India AF will have between 72 and 108 Rafale and 300+ Tejas.

Indian Navy is another thing.

Yes sir that is the case here as well we are hoping for a new fleet.

 

[uoftotaku]

FYI some good updates here for everyone to chew on

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...r-prices-explode-as-production-end-nears.html

Relevant excerpt for this thread:
"The latest Rafale sale, concluded in September, was to India, which is paying 7.87 billion euros (today worth $8.37 billion) for 36 aircraft, including weapons, training and initial support. This works out to $232.5 million per aircraft, including weapons, training and support."...."By comparison, Qatar is paying $279 million for each of the 24 Dassault Rafale fighters it ordered from France in May 2015 for €6.3 billion (today worth $6.7 billion)."

 

[WolfPack86]

France Promises 50 Years of Support To Indian Rafale Jets

French Air Force technicians loading MICA missile on a Rafale fighter jet

The most eye-catching detail about the Rafael deal disclosed in the Indian Parliament was product support to the 36 combat jets for 50 years.

New Delhi — The Indian Government on Tuesday disclosed some details of the $ 8.85 billion deal to purchase French combat aircraft. Among them is a promise by French company Dassault Aviation to provide product support for five decades.

India had canceled a 126 jet tender in which the French company had emerged the winner. It later awarded a contract for supplying 36 planes in fly-away condition to the same company, Dassault.
“The terms of the procurement include five years of performance based logistics (PBL) with options for additional seven-year extension. The terms also provide for 50 years’ product support by the manufacturer,” informed Manohar Parrikar, India’s Minister of Defense to the Parliament.
“The deliveries of the aircraft will commence in September 2019 and will be completed in April 2022,” Parrikar added.

Under the contract, Dassault will make India-specific changes to the aircraft and mount different types of missiles: beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air Meteor, short and medium range air-to-air MICA and precision guided air-to-ground SCALP missiles.

The procurement includes a provision for offsets of 50 percent of the value of the Aircraft and Weapons Package.
https://www.facebook.com/pg/indianmilitaryphotos/photos/?ref=page_internal

 

[Drsomnath999]

Rafale deal to help DRDO realise stealth drone dream?
THE ASIAN AGE.
Published : Nov 21, 2016, 1:05 am IST
Updated : Nov 21, 2016, 5:40 am IST



These 83 aircraft would be fitted with advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar being developed indigenously.

DRDO chairperson S. Christopher at a press conference on LCA-TEJAS and TAPAS (RUSTOM-II) in Bengaluru. (Photo: PTI)
Bengaluru: An oblique spin-off of the $8.8 billion deal with France for 36 Rafale fighter jets for the Indian Air Force (IAF) could help DRDO achieve fruition of “Ghatak”, the country’s first stealth combat drone or unmanned combat aerial vehicle (UCAV).

Safran, a French company which manufactures engines for Rafale combat jets, has offered to partner DRDO in the development of a variant of the indigenous Kaveri engine for “Ghatak”.

“We are working on technologies required for “Ghatak” with about Rs 230 crore sanctioned as part of pre-project studies. We are waiting for approval (of the project) by the Union government,” Dr S. Christopher, director general, DRDO, and secretary, department of defence R&D, ministry of defence (MoD), told the media here on Sunday.

He said Safran’s offer could help accelerate the development of Kaveri engine to power Tejas (Light Combat Aircraft) fighter jets. So far, an expenditure of about Rs 2,100 crores was incurred on Kaveri engine by Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bengaluru, over the last three decades.

In case the government approves collaboration with Safran, the French engine maker would contribute about Rs 500 crore to Rs 600 crore and ensure certification of engines within the next 18 months for Ghatak, Tejas and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), he added.

Dr Christopher said Sri Lanka, Turkmenistan, and Bangladesh were interested in buying Tejas combat aircraft.

In fact, Turkmenistan’s Chief of Air Staff had a hands-on experience flying the Indian military jet to become the second Chief of Air Staff to pilot Tejas. In May, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha, flew Tejas during a 40 minute sortie over Bengaluru and neighbouring areas of Tamil Nadu.

He said the latest decision of Ministry of Defence to sanction Rs 50,000 crores for 83 Tejas combat jets for IAF would also cover the cost of development of an ecosystem for production and supply of systems, engines and spares.

Each Tejas Mark-I jet would cost about Rs 250 crores to Rs 260 crores with manufacture of these 83 aircraft likely to stretch between 2020 and 2025, with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) set to ramp up production from eight fighter jets a year to 16 every year.

These 83 aircraft would be fitted with advanced Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar being developed indigenously.

Commodore C.D. Balaji, director, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the nodal organization for ‘Tejas’, said the Final Operational Clearance (FOC), a key milestone in the military jet’s development would be completed in the first half of 2017.

Dr Christopher said the Unmanned Aerial Vehicle (UAV) ‘Rustom-II’ flew with clock-work precision during its maiden flight last week. Ten ‘Rustom-II’ category UAVs would be made for flight tests and verify capabilities such as intelligence gathering and surveillance. A portion of the budget of Rs 1,500 crores sanctioned for ‘Rustom-II’ would be used for the Aeronautical Test Range (ATR), an out-door test and evaluation facility near Chitradurga in Karnataka, he added.
http://www.asianage.com/india/all-i...to-help-drdo-realise-stealth-drone-dream.html

 

[WolfPack86]

India could Develope Combat Drone with Help From Safran

Safran has offered to partner India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) in the development of a variant of the indigenous Kaveri engine for its combat drone, ‘Ghatak’.
The French company which manufactures engines for Rafale fighter jets are waiting for an approval by the Union government.
“We are working on technologies required for ‘Ghatak’ with about Rs 230 crore ($33.5 million) sanctioned as part of pre-project studies,” S. Christopher, Director General, DRDO, and Secretary, Department of Defence R&D, Ministry of Defence (MoD) was quoted as saying by Deccan Chronicle Sunday.
Safran’s offer could help accelerate the development of Kaveri engine to power ‘Tejas’ (Light Combat Aircraft) fighter jets. So far, an expenditure of about Rs 2,100 crores ($306 million) was incurred on Kaveri engine by Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore, over last three decades.
In case the government approves collaboration with Safran, the French engine maker would contribute about Rs 500 crore to Rs 600 crore ($73 million to $87 million) and ensure certification of engines within the next 18 months for ‘Ghatak,’ ‘Tejas’ and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), Christopher added.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/11/india-could-develop-combat-drone-engine.html

 

[airtel]

India could Develope Combat Drone with Help From Safran

Safran has offered to partner India’s Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO) in the development of a variant of the indigenous Kaveri engine for its combat drone, ‘Ghatak’.
The French company which manufactures engines for Rafale fighter jets are waiting for an approval by the Union government.
“We are working on technologies required for ‘Ghatak’ with about Rs 230 crore ($33.5 million) sanctioned as part of pre-project studies,” S. Christopher, Director General, DRDO, and Secretary, Department of Defence R&D, Ministry of Defence (MoD) was quoted as saying by Deccan Chronicle Sunday.
Safran’s offer could help accelerate the development of Kaveri engine to power ‘Tejas’ (Light Combat Aircraft) fighter jets. So far, an expenditure of about Rs 2,100 crores ($306 million) was incurred on Kaveri engine by Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), Bangalore, over last three decades.
In case the government approves collaboration with Safran, the French engine maker would contribute about Rs 500 crore to Rs 600 crore ($73 million to $87 million) and ensure certification of engines within the next 18 months for ‘Ghatak,’ ‘Tejas’ and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA), Christopher added.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/11/india-could-develop-combat-drone-engine.html

this is the most dumb Propaganda website ...................France will Help in turbojet Engine which can be Used in drones too ...................why twisting it ?

 

[BON PLAN]

this is the most dumb Propaganda website ...................France will Help in turbojet Engine which can be Used in drones too ...................why twisting it ?

Why not ?

 

[IndianHawk]

Why not ?

A commercial deal can not be called "help".
That's why. After all French are charging top dollar for this.

These reports should also mention that India will help to keep dassalt factories running.:biggrin2:

 

[BON PLAN]

A commercial deal can not be called "help".
That's why. After all French are charging top dollar for this.

These reports should also mention that India will help to keep dassalt factories running.:biggrin2:

Buy JF17 in this case
=> cheap,
=> can help to tighten relation with your turbulent neighbour.
=> you can have the support of the engine directly from your other strong ally, Russia.

A WIN WIN WIN solution

 

[BON PLAN]

.

 

[Filtercoffee]

Buy JF17 in this case
=> cheap,
=> can help to tighten relation with your turbulent neighbour.
=> you can have the support of the engine directly from your other strong ally, Russia.

A WIN WIN WIN solution

No sir it's a Russian design anyway. We pick up the left overs.

 

[IndianHawk]

Buy JF17 in this case
=> cheap,
=> can help to tighten relation with your turbulent neighbour.
=> you can have the support of the engine directly from your other strong ally, Russia.

A WIN WIN WIN solution

Utterly illogical reply and out of context too:biggrin2:

 

[BON PLAN]

Utterly illogical reply and out of context too:biggrin2:

Absolutely not.
It's an answer to your affirmation "After all French are charging top dollar for this". I
t's it's too costly, try another thing. I've just made a suggestion

 

[IndianHawk]

Absolutely not.
It's an answer to your affirmation "After all French are charging top dollar for this". I
t's it's too costly, try another thing. I've just made a suggestion

We have no problem paying top dollar. We have a problem with French selling it and then calling it help. Help is not sold or is it.
You want to help us how about give a squadron for free.

That was the meaning of the post.
This farce of help comes out as typical western bullshit :bs:

I thought the French knew better but alas...

 

[BON PLAN]

We have no problem paying top dollar. We have a problem with French selling it and then calling it help. Help is not sold or is it.
You want to help us how about give a squadron for free.

That was the meaning of the post.
This farce of help comes out as typical western bullshit :bs:

I thought the French knew better but alas...

A help is not always free.
You make a confusion with volunteering.

Be sure that if India pay that amount for this 36 plane, with a lot of competitors and a fierce battle during and after MMRCA, is it because this plane is fine.

 

[sjmaverick]

A help is not always free.
You make a confusion with volunteering.

Be sure that if India pay that amount for this 36 plane, with a lot of competitors and a fierce battle during and after MMRCA, is it because this plane is fine.

"Help for consideration in money" is nothing but a commercially executed transaction between buyer and seller....Since this transaction does not involve any relaxed credit terms as well how sale of a product in this case a Fighter Plane which is available to other buyers as well at varying prices be called as help is beyond my comprehension.

Bon Plan enlighten me if you can

 

[sjmaverick]

Lol..so much so for 250 Million smart 4.5 Gen Plane with high technology ...@ Bon Plan seriously 48% serviceability is it true specially with the country of Origin . How would France assure contracted 75% to India. Just curious @ Gadeshi whats the serviceability rate of flankers in Russia hope its better than India and close to 70 to 80%:

I assume IHS jane is a credible source ..

The serviceability rate of the Dassault Rafale fighter jet in service with the French Air Force is 48.5%, according to information given to a French lawmaker by the government. The serviceability rate or the availability rate is the number of aircraft ready for missions at any given time. In the case of the French Air Force’s Rafale jets, nearly half of the fleet is on the ground undergoing repairs or maintenance, Jane’s reported on 24 November 2016. According to the Janes report, the official record for France's Dassault Rafale fighter fleet in 2015 (93 aircraft in service with the air force) with a budgeted maintenance cost of EUR343.90 million ($364.56 million). This information was given to a lawmaker which Jane’s did not identify. The figure presents an interesting proposition as Dassault, through the French government is reported to have promised in its deal with India that it will ensure that there is 75 percent serviceability, i.e 27 aircraft are operationally available at any given time of the 36 that India has orders. “There will be steep penalties if they don’t adhere to timelines,” unnamed sources were quoted as saying by the Hindu on 23 September this year. India concluded an InterGovernmental Agreement (IGA) with France for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets at a cost of €7.87 billion on the same day. In contrast the Su30MKI fleet with the Indian Air Force has an operational availability between 5560 percent which gives it a higher serviceability than the Rafale jets in service with the French AF. The Indian MoD has been in negotiations with the Russian manufacturer of the Su30 jet to raise the serviceability to 7075 per cent. Dassault will begin aircraft deliveries after 36 months and complete in 67 months. The deliveries of Dassault Rafale fighter jets India ordered will commence from September 2019 with the French government and Dassault committed to providing depotlevel maintenance during the pendency of the contract to ensure a high serviceability rate.

 

[BON PLAN]

"Help for consideration in money" is nothing but a commercially executed transaction between buyer and seller....Since this transaction does not involve any relaxed credit terms as well how sale of a product in this case a Fighter Plane which is available to other buyers as well at varying prices be called as help is beyond my comprehension.

Bon Plan enlighten me if you can

You aailed to developp Kaveri. We offer you to help you to closed properly this program under the Rafale Offset clause. It's clear and easy to understand.

I hope you never expect Safran will give you part of a know how just five company in the world are mastering for FREE ???? We are near Christmas, but it's not the case to expect a miracle.

 

[BON PLAN]

Lol..so much so for 250 Million smart 4.5 Gen Plane with high technology ...@ Bon Plan seriously 48% serviceability is it true specially with the country of Origin . How would France assure contracted 75% to India. Just curious @ Gadeshi whats the serviceability rate of flankers in Russia hope its better than India and close to 70 to 80%:

I assume IHS jane is a credible source ..

The serviceability rate of the Dassault Rafale fighter jet in service with the French Air Force is 48.5%, according to information given to a French lawmaker by the government. The serviceability rate or the availability rate is the number of aircraft ready for missions at any given time. In the case of the French Air Force’s Rafale jets, nearly half of the fleet is on the ground undergoing repairs or maintenance, Jane’s reported on 24 November 2016. According to the Janes report, the official record for France's Dassault Rafale fighter fleet in 2015 (93 aircraft in service with the air force) with a budgeted maintenance cost of EUR343.90 million ($364.56 million). This information was given to a lawmaker which Jane’s did not identify. The figure presents an interesting proposition as Dassault, through the French government is reported to have promised in its deal with India that it will ensure that there is 75 percent serviceability, i.e 27 aircraft are operationally available at any given time of the 36 that India has orders. “There will be steep penalties if they don’t adhere to timelines,” unnamed sources were quoted as saying by the Hindu on 23 September this year. India concluded an InterGovernmental Agreement (IGA) with France for the purchase of 36 Rafale fighter jets at a cost of €7.87 billion on the same day. In contrast the Su30MKI fleet with the Indian Air Force has an operational availability between 5560 percent which gives it a higher serviceability than the Rafale jets in service with the French AF. The Indian MoD has been in negotiations with the Russian manufacturer of the Su30 jet to raise the serviceability to 7075 per cent. Dassault will begin aircraft deliveries after 36 months and complete in 67 months. The deliveries of Dassault Rafale fighter jets India ordered will commence from September 2019 with the French government and Dassault committed to providing depotlevel maintenance during the pendency of the contract to ensure a high serviceability rate.

France has 150 Rafale on line. We are in peace, expect against ISIS (a threat that doesn't need 75% of 150 rafale to deal with). Add 80 Mirage 2000.
We don't need a 75% service on our all fleet !
It's just a question of how many money you are ready to put in the support.
In france it's the same problem with NH90, Tiger helo, Leclerc MBT....
Be sure if we were in a hard crisis vs russia for exemple, money for support will be found, and ALL the serviciability of ALL our weapons will be far higher.

But what's wrong with you about french rafale serviceability ? What counts is the promise made of 75% for the Indian Rafale. And that explain a part of the total amount of the Rafale contract..... (with bases accomodation and new equipments and weapons to be integrated)