Know Your 'Rafale'

Neil

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Art of deal-making

India and the United States resemble an old, estranged, couple who are too irked by each other's frets and foibles to stay together but aware of too many shared interests to live apart. Their relations reek of familiarity even in their differences. These impressions are reinforced every time one engages with official Washington as happened last week whilst attending a conference as part of which I, along with three other Indian invitees, had the opportunity to discuss issues currently troubling bilateral ties with Republican congressman Steve Chabot, chairman of the sub-committee on West Asia and South Asia of the House Foreign Relations Committee and his staff, and separately with senior advisers to several US senators.
Apparently, India's Medium-range Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) decision shortlisting Rafale and Eurofighter, with the former finally being selected, at the expense of the Lockheed F-16IN and the Boeing F/A-18IN, still rankles. Plainly, the US strategic community is perplexed that so important a decision was made not on "political grounds" as they believed should have been done, but on "technical" basis. They felt specially aggrieved because, or so it was hinted, the Manmohan Singh government had assured Washington that an American plane would be chosen. As a result, the Obama administration was primed to politically cash in on the deal as were many powerful American legislators, Mr Chabot among them. The congressman from the state of Ohio's 1st congressional district, Mr Chabot, vented his displeasure, indicating that the engines for both the US-sourced aircraft — the F-414 engine in the F/A-18 and the F-110 engine in the F-16, would have come from the General Electric (GE) factory in his constituency. I pointed out that GE's Evendale facility in Cincinnati had already been afforded considerable business by India with orders for the GE F-404 engine for the Mk-I version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft, the GE F-414 engine for the Mk-II version, and the LM2500 marine gas turbine power plant in the CODOG (Combined diesel or gas) configuration driving the indigenous Shivalik-class stealth frigates with the Indian Navy. Mr Chabot may know little about specific defence deals, but his protest proves that all politics is local. What matters to influential US lawmakers are less the common values and the geopolitical convergence of interests animating Indo-US relations — though these provide the justification — than the reality of commercial deals that generate jobs, benefit their constituents, and help them get re-elected.
It leads one to wonder if the reluctance of the US government to part with source codes, flight control laws, and other super-sensitive information as part of a comprehensive transfer of technology deal — one of the reasons for rejecting the American aircraft, could have been moderated by carefully cultivating strategically important US senators and congressmen, and orchestrating sufficient pressure from the Capitol Hill. A senior official of an US aerospace major, speaking to me on the sidelines of the conference, emphatically suggested as much. Indeed, he went on to castigate both the US government for imposing a ceiling on the level of technologies that could be sold to India, and the Indian government for quietly accepting these limits instead of forcefully using the "leverage" India has to insist, demand, and otherwise extract more advanced technology than American companies are presently permitted to sell. He further averred that India did not quite appreciate the leverage it has, leave alone use it effectively. Riled by the European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS) consortium (Eurofighter) and Dassault Avions (Rafale) not being similarly constrained, the US aviation industry official stated unequivocally that American aerospace companies would willingly sell sophisticated technology, source codes and all, to India; the trick, he said, lay in Delhi mounting sustained government-to-government pressure on Washington in tandem with the Indian embassy channelling to important US legislators election campaign funds generated by politically active and wealthy non-resident Indians and NRI associations in America.
There will always be some payoffs from such pressure tactics. But the US government does not, on principle, allow even its closest Nato allies to access its cutting-edge technologies, so India stands little chance, realistically, of doing so, no matter what's at stake and how much it is willing to put out. In the event, a far better way to reap technology benefits is to do so indirectly, by mining the American military's incomparable operational experience with advanced systems and its high-tech savvy. In fact, the US armed services' eagerness to render this sort of assistance is reflected in a pioneering venture involving the naval variant of the Tejas. The Indian Navy had reportedly considered consulting with EADS and Dassault in areas such as determining the location of the arrester hook-landing system, ways to test this system, "aerodynamic fixes" to improve carrier takeoff and landing, optimising landing gear design to handle larger operating weight, integrating operational payload, reduction of aircraft weight, selecting an alternative engine for a better power-to-weight ratio, etc. The US Navy, which has the most extensive carrier aviation experience, was finally but hesitantly approached for practical advice.
The Indian Navy's gambit paid off. Its Letter of Request, while occasioning a short but intense debate in the Office of the US Chief of Naval Operations, elicited a positive response. A Letter of Agreement and consultancy contract soon followed, and veteran US naval aviators, deputed for the job, began working seamlessly on the Light Combat Aircraft many months back. The reason for the success of this scheme, according to a Pentagon officer, was that all relevant decisions on the Indian side — from initial contact, drafting the consultancy contract, to payments and arrangements for hosting the American naval aviators — emanated from a single source, the officer heading the programme, Commodore C.D. Balaji, with the redtape-inclined defence ministry having no role. Given its success, this seems an excellent means of encouraging high-value, home-grown, military R&D projects and enabling them to gain from practical knowledge and hands-on expertise transferred by stalwarts of the US armed forces. It is a model Air Force and Army will do well to emulate: create a stake in, and take charge of, projects that will produce in-country worthwhile military hardware.
The writer is a professor at the Centre for Policy Research, New Delhi


Art of deal-making | The Asian Age
 

ace009

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I don't think this is true ...

"Furthermore, the Rafale is nuclear-capable and will replace the Mirage 2000N in French service as the carrier of the newly-upgraded ASMP/A nuclear stand-off missile; it is also capable of firing the AM-39 Exocet missile, giving it an anti-ship capability that its competitors do not have. India is also interested in fitting its BrahMos supersonic missile to a wide range of its combat aircraft, and Rafale could apparently carry it"

The Real Reasons for Rafale's Indian Victory
 

Galaxy

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French Rafale UAE deal back on-report

La Tribune says Sarkozy could seal $10 bln deal by April

* Win in the UAE could pave way for Qatar, Kuwait

Feb 2 (Reuters) - France could seal a long-awaited deal for Dassault to sell at least 60 Rafale fighter jets to the United Arab Emirates by April, turning around what appeared to have been a lost cause, French newspaper La Tribune reported on Thursday.

The French-built jet emerged on Tuesday as preferred bidder in a $15 billion contest to supply India with 126 warplanes, lifting hopes for a sale that would boost French national pride and restore the lustre of its aviation sector.

Citing unidentified sources, the paper said on its website that President Nicolas Sarkozy would go to the UAE in March or early April when the contract is likely to be finalised.

The deal, potentially worth $10 billion has been in the works since 2008, but was thrown into doubt in November when the world's fourth-largest oil exporter said the proposed terms were "uncompetitive and unworkable." It asked for details of a rival aircraft, the Typhoon built by the Eurofighter consortium.

"Everything has been unlocked (between the UAE and Dassault)," an unidentified source told La Tribune.

A French government source told Reuters that Paris was waiting to hear from the Emirates this month. Dassault and the Defence Ministry declined to comment.

Sarkozy scored a commercial coup with the announcement this week that years of lobbying had pushed India close to buying the Rafale and will look to make political gains ahead of April's presidential election in which he is lagging in the polls behind Socialist rival Francois Hollande.

The UAE has pressed for the aircraft's engines to be upgraded with extra thrust and for better radar, industry sources have said.

La Tribune said there were a few technical details still to be ironed out, but that they were easy to resolve. It added that as part of the deal Paris would take back the Emirates' existing Dassault-made Mirage fighters.

Speaking after the India announcement, French Defence Minister Gerard Longuet hinted there could be more deals ahead.

"Good news are like worries, they fly in squadrons," he said. "That (deal) is the start of a squadron of good news."

A French win in the UAE could also lead to further contracts in the Gulf Arab region which shares the West's concerns that Iran is using its nuclear energy programme to develop weapons, a charge Tehran has denied. Saudi Arabia inked a deal for U.S. arms worth nearly $60 billion a year ago.

Qatar, a close French ally, said last year it wanted to replace its fleet of Mirage fighter jets during 2012 possibly buying 24 to 36 units. Kuwait in 2010 said it was also considering buying Rafales to replace its ageing Mirage fleet.

According to analysts the Gulf countries are looking to have the same aircraft for inter-operability reasons as well as differentiating themselves from Gulf power house Saudi Arabia, which uses U.S. Boeing-built F-15s.

"My wish is that the UAE makes a decision that allows two neighbours that want inter-operability with it to make decisions," Longuet said in January when asked about potential contracts in Qatar and Kuwait.

"If they get the feeling no decision is taken they will look elsewhere. For now they are interested, but they will only really be if the first one takes a leap."

French Rafale UAE deal back on-report | Reuters
 

pankaj nema

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No it is not true

Brahmos will only fly on Su 30mki

Using it on Rafale is a total waste of the Rafale and a lot of technical headache too

Rafale has already got an impressive list of A2 G weapons
 

pankaj nema

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UAE is asking for the MOON

Buy their Old Mirage 2000 then PROMISE more enhancements which UAE will Finance and OWN
and then France should pay Royalty for every Rafale sold

How are all these conditions possible
 

Mad Indian

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You are not a real doctor are you, you just play one in the Internet. Your several scenarios is one scenario and that one is rubbish as I've explained several times. You will find a minority here and not a single proponent in your govt who will say that India will ever ever do another nuclear test. Saying so tells me your knowledge about world affairs is stuck on the schoolyard. Somehow you seem to think that some strange power will make India challenge UN sanctions , risk it's standing, economy for a nuclear test.
Yeah right, Yanks are the only SUPRA POWERA in the world and will remain so for two thousand years and all the countries around the world will say only YES SIR YES SIR to them.... Get real will ya.... I quoted a time frame of 2030s....

BTW You GENIOUS have not yet answered my real question as to why YouR so called SUPRA POWERFULLA SUPER DU(M)PER Planes got dumped by our AirForce....

And If ever you visit Chennai, come to Madras Medical College , where you can find me:ranger::ranger::ranger:.....
 

Dovah

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Yes you are right but don't forget the good things- because of they we are united now,the military structure of our nation,they liberated us from Muslim rulers,by creating Pakistan they moved Muslim radicals ,they connected us through roads ,railway lines and airports,educational institutes, dams, factories etc etc
They did nothing for us. These "good things" are just side-effects of the genocide they committed.

they liberated us from Muslim rulers,
Liberated? Is this a joke?
 

Folk hero

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@jayALT you ask why we don't want to by US super hornet or f35 here are the reasons

1) US is still not completely out of cold war era mind-set and still treat us like an ally of soviet
union yes our relationship is better but still we are not like buddy buddy.

2) US a biggest ally of our enemy (Pakistan) even tho they back stabbed them many times.

3) if another incident like Mumbai happened and if we lunch a military strike on pakistan what is the
guaranty that the US will not put an arms embargo on us.

4) and why do you think that india will not test another nuclear device in future are you a some kind of
prophet, in next 10 to 20 years india's economy will be too big and too interconnected to be treated by UN like a third world country.

5) we are developing our own 5gen MCA so why should we buy another 5gen MCA from US , let's say you really want to us buy f35
at lest let it finish and don't try to sell us an incomplete fighter jet.

6) US knows only two kinds of nations first friendly (puppet lap dog) and enemy (free minded independent) so we will become natural enemy of US.

and stop acting like a salesman of US arms industry and stop derailing the thread, this thread is only meant for
rafale and what it means for our air force.
 

ace009

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The British indeed did all those "good" things you mentioned - none of them for Indians though. All of that was done to support and sustain their "raj" and empire. So that they can plunder and ravage the country better.
Someday you should visit Calcutta (or Kolkata as the Bengalis say). The City has nicer central areas - built for the British and shabby outer parts (north and east) - built for the "natives". The Indians were not even allowed to stay in the British areas at night for a long time. That is how "good" the British were.
But, we did inherit a lot of stuff from them - including this language. Yet when you balance it all, where they good or bad for us? I would still say - BAD!

Back on Rafale - does anyone know how many will be built by HAL each year? How soon will they finish the 126? P2Prada mentioned some numbers, but I think he pulled them out of his hat ...
 

Immanuel

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@jayALT you ask why we don't want to by US super hornet or f35 here are the reasons

1) US is still not completely out of cold war era mind-set and still treat us like an ally of soviet
union yes our relationship is better but still we are not like buddy buddy.

2) US a biggest ally of our enemy (Pakistan) even tho they back stabbed them many times.

3) if another incident like Mumbai happened and if we lunch a military strike on pakistan what is the
guaranty that the US will not put an arms embargo on us.

4) and why do you think that india will not test another nuclear device in future are you a some kind of
prophet, in next 10 to 20 years india's economy will be too big and too interconnected to be treated by UN like a third world country.

5) we are developing our own 5gen MCA so why should we buy another 5gen MCA from US , let's say you really want to us buy f35
at lest let it finish and don't try to sell us an incomplete fighter jet.

6) US knows only two kinds of nations first friendly (puppet lap dog) and enemy (free minded independent) so we will become natural enemy of US.

and stop acting like a salesman of US arms industry and stop derailing the thread, this thread is only meant for
rafale and what it means for our air force.
Well buddy wrong on many counts, US is well out of the cold war mindset, it has diverted a significant amount of attention to the rest of the world threats, they still talk with Russia, they both know a war between them is a war to the end.

That said US fully understands that they need a equal partner in India and can't really boss us around, the problem lies with the their age old export policy which is in dire need of reforms. US knows pak is a threat to everyone however they simply can't nuke them or attack them while risking an all out nuke war, any attack will automatically lead to loose nukes in the hands of radicals, however the number of SF exercises between our nations both in public and secretly have increased obviously we train with them in order to take care of pak and china if the need arises.

Times have changed, we are not jumping into a fast friendship, since old sayings are true, fast friendships lead to disasters. We are taking it slow, so are they. We are democracies and we are bound to be natural allies, we have much to gain, so do they.

To be enemies with the US is ludacris, a war with the US is a war to the end. We neither have the military might or the global extensive reach that the US has for decades, lets not go make enemies where there is no need to do so. We have enough enemies as it is.

Slow and steady wins the race, our closeness with US is on the rise and is bound to increase.
 

Folk hero

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man o man did you guys know that there is a fighter jet so powerful so mighty that would kill any fighter bird in sky or on land that is non other then j10 so the chinis clam:jaw: :rofl: :tsk::tsk:

so what you guys say let's dump rafale and buy sum j10 and invade europe and america .:plan::shoot::shoot::devious:
 

The Messiah

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Well buddy wrong on many counts, US is well out of the cold war mindset, it has diverted a significant amount of attention to the rest of the world threats, they still talk with Russia, they both know a war between them is a war to the end.

That said US fully understands that they need a equal partner in India and can't really boss us around, the problem lies with the their age old export policy which is in dire need of reforms. US knows pak is a threat to everyone however they simply can't nuke them or attack them while risking an all out nuke war, any attack will automatically lead to loose nukes in the hands of radicals, however the number of SF exercises between our nations both in public and secretly have increased obviously we train with them in order to take care of pak and china if the need arises.

Times have changed, we are not jumping into a fast friendship, since old sayings are true, fast friendships lead to disasters. We are taking it slow, so are they. We are democracies and we are bound to be natural allies, we have much to gain, so do they.

To be enemies with the US is ludacris, a war with the US is a war to the end. We neither have the military might or the global extensive reach that the US has for decades, lets not go make enemies where there is no need to do so. We have enough enemies as it is.

Slow and steady wins the race, our closeness with US is on the rise and is bound to increase.
who wants to be an enemy ?

id want an equal partnership with no strings attached but if they insist on us becoming a puppet then they can run along and make India there enemy. That would be there own doing.

If you study history then you will notice that till date usa has not had an equal relationship with any country and furthermore they want to remain the strongest so naturally they wouldn't want other countries to challenge them economically and technologically which invaribly India will do if it keeps on its current path of 8%+ gdp growth and indigenous development.
 

trackwhack

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Well buddy wrong on many counts, US is well out of the cold war mindset, it has diverted a significant amount of attention to the rest of the world threats, they still talk with Russia, they both know a war between them is a war to the end.

That said US fully understands that they need a equal partner in India and can't really boss us around, the problem lies with the their age old export policy which is in dire need of reforms. US knows pak is a threat to everyone however they simply can't nuke them or attack them while risking an all out nuke war, any attack will automatically lead to loose nukes in the hands of radicals, however the number of SF exercises between our nations both in public and secretly have increased obviously we train with them in order to take care of pak and china if the need arises.

Times have changed, we are not jumping into a fast friendship, since old sayings are true, fast friendships lead to disasters. We are taking it slow, so are they. We are democracies and we are bound to be natural allies, we have much to gain, so do they.

To be enemies with the US is ludacris, a war with the US is a war to the end. We neither have the military might or the global extensive reach that the US has for decades, lets not go make enemies where there is no need to do so. We have enough enemies as it is.

Slow and steady wins the race, our closeness with US is on the rise and is bound to increase.
Thats all good chief, except what is highlighted. Their doctrine starts with "In order to preserve American preeminence". That kind of contradicts with equal partnership. American doctrine does not have an equal partnership clause in it. Which is why they are so pissed with China. Which is why they keep talking about leveraging India to manage China.

How can we engage with, let alone trust, a country that intends to use us as a leverage and a hedge against another nation?

I am all for India American friendship / partnership etc, but a lot has to change especially considering how much water has flown below the bridge wrt to Pakistan.
 
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Galaxy

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I don't understand what we are discussing in this never ending thread ? :shocked:

British, Mughals ? :rolleyes:

Now, Rafale would be part of IAF, most likely. So, What's point in discussing F-35 or ET or anything else ?? It doesn't matter which is best, what matters most is what we will have. Ans. is Rafale.

Indeed, we should focus more on Rafale capability and how it will counter our enemies jets. :lol:
 

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