Know Your 'Rafale'

Defcon 1

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DAS have 6 IIR sensors , DDM-NG has 2 IIR sensors
DAS has a TV channel , DDM-NG doesnt which make it similar to AAR-56 on F-22 ( basically both can generate IR-based image but only DAS has a mean to display it )
It's very different !

DDM means "detecteur de départ missile" => missile launch detector. It's the main use. Maybe it will be used for other things, but it's the main purpose.

DAS is used as a multi sector camera, at least. It's a far more complex system. The pilot will be able to see virtually through the airframe everyhere. When it will be operational....
Yes, I know about these differences. However, as I understand, both systems are passive IR sensors. Granted DAS has 6 sensors instead of 2 on DDM-NG, but both achieve 360 degree coverage around the aircraft. (Almost 360 degree in case of DDM NG).

Since both are receiving IR signals from around the aircraft, is the difference only in the ability to construct an IR image of the outside environment or the difference is also in the sensors placed on the aircraft?

Also while it is claimed that DDM NG is capable of tracking the said missile or aircraft, it is not a full fledged IRST for some reason and IRST capability in Rafale is being achieved through MICA IR/Damocles for some reason.

Also, yes, DDM NG doesn't has a TV Channel but OSF does, though I don't know about its coverage. If it has decent coverage, the same can be used to construct all round images of the area around the aircraft.

Hence, my rephrased (and probably more clear) question is, does DDM NG+OSF combination need more sensors to be equal to DAS or the shortfall in Rafale lies in the ability to process the information collected from the sensors? The said shortfall occurring in two areas:
1. Ability to let the pilot see all around the aircraft.
2. Ability of DDM NG to double up as IRST since it is already detecting and tracking missiles.

I am asking this because right now it looks like, Rafale is using DDM NG, OSF, Mica and Damocles together to do something which DAS does all alone, and DAS is better at it.
 
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BON PLAN

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Yes, I know about these differences. However, as I understand, both systems are passive IR sensors. Granted DAS has 6 sensors instead of 2 on DDM-NG, but both achieve 360 degree coverage around the aircraft. (Almost 360 degree in case of DDM NG).

Since both are receiving IR signals from around the aircraft, is the difference only in the ability to construct an IR image of the outside environment or the difference is also in the sensors placed on the aircraft?

Also while it is claimed that DDM NG is capable of tracking the said missile or aircraft, it is not a full fledged IRST for some reason and IRST capability in Rafale is being achieved through MICA IR/Damocles for some reason.

Also, yes, DDM NG doesn't has a TV Channel but OSF does, though I don't know about its coverage. If it has decent coverage, the same can be used to construct all round images of the area around the aircraft.

Hence, my rephrased (and probably more clear) question is, does DDM NG+OSF combination need more sensors to be equal to DAS or the shortfall in Rafale lies in the ability to process the information collected from the sensors? The said shortfall occurring in two areas:
1. Ability to let the pilot see all around the aircraft.
2. Ability of DDM NG to double up as IRST since it is already detecting and tracking missiles.

I am asking this because right now it looks like, Rafale is using DDM NG, OSF, Mica and Damocles together to do something which DAS does all alone, and DAS is better at it.
DAS does a real 360° coverage. And the picture can be seen through the pilot's helmet, as if there was no air frame.

DDM + OSF + ... are more classical. In a near futur pilot can probably see these pictures on the helmet, but it's far less integrated than DAS.
And don't remember DDM is not initially made to present IR picture to the pilot. It's a missile warning system.

DAS seems to be a more ambitious programm. That explain why it's so difficult to end its developpment.
 

lion

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What about electronic warfare suite of Rafale? Does this jet has any advantage on this Point?
 

BON PLAN

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What about electronic warfare suite of Rafale? Does this jet has any advantage on this Point?
It's the most secret part of Rafale : SPECTRA .....
It cost 25% of the developpment costs of the entire programm. It is supposed to vanished the eletronic signature of the plane....

but keep quiet. It's a secret !
 

PD_Solo

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Some extract..

electronic warfare system

The Rafale is equipped with a highly automated electronic warfare system, which provides an excellent level of protection against known and future threats, as demonstrated in Libya.SPECTRA (Self-Protection Equipment Countering Threats of Rafale Aircraft - self-protection equipment from Rafale aircraft threats) is a set of fully integrated electronic warfare, designed and produced by Thales in cooperation with MBDA. The system is completely mounted internally in an effort to keep free the weapon stations. Ensures efficient electromagnetic detection, laser illumination warning, missile approach warning with passive IR detection technology, electronic interference and use of electromagnetic devices deception (shaff) and infrared (flare), even in multi-threat environment more demanding.

[https://cdn2]

Thanks to its digital technology, SPECTRA provides passive detection of long-range identification and tracking of threats, and allows the pilot or the system operator to react immediately with the best countermeasures: electronic interference, use of chaff and flare, evasive maneuvers and / or any combination of these actions to avoid or counteract successfully to a variety of threats air and land. SPECTRA is divided into different modules and sensors strategically positioned in the aircraft to provide complete coverage.lethality zones, determined by calculating the SPECTRA according to the types of detected air defense weapons and the local terrain, can then be displayed on the color screen tactics, allowing the crew to avoid flight in hazardous areas.

Even a very dense electronic signal environment, the precision of azimuth location of the threat is excellent, and the time required for signal identification is extremely short. Moreover, the high processing capacity allows detection and interference remarkable performance, optimizing in accordance with the identified threat response: received electromagnetic signals are analyzed, the direction and the location of the transmitters are determined with great precision. The exact location and the types of systems detected by SPECTRA can be recorded for later analysis, providing Rafale operators a substantial capacity SIGINT / ELINT already integrated, minimizing the need for dedicated intelligence platforms, specialized and expensive. The use of SPECTRA is also very flexible, and its software can be reprogrammed on the flight line.

To counter the new generation of portable ground-to-air missile, a laser light warning system is mounted on the sides of the nose and hunting tail, providing 360-degree coverage and ensuring detection and warning approach launched missiles " shoulder "guided laser beam. There are four modules incorporated into the fuselage (in upward direction) to launch various types of cartridges decoys (flares or electrooptic), and the Rafale is equipped with two internal chaff launchers.

Refinements are continually being introduced to improve the SPECTRA system and a Missile Warning System Next Generation (DDM NG - detecteur From Missile Nouvelle Génération) is being built. Thanks to the use of the latest technology of infrared imaging, the new system offers greater field of view and better detection range and lower false alarm rate compared to other technologies and with the system that currently flies the Rafale (DDM). With DDM NG, the exhaust wake of a missile can be detected at a very long distance without revealing issue that betray the presence of the Rafale.

The discreet missile approach warning ensures high probability of detection and low false alarm rates, even against the latest weapons guided by totally passive IR; and, when the launch of a missile is detected, the DDM NG can automatically trigger a sequence decoys to avoid the threat. By the time this article was written, the operational evaluation of DDM NG had already started in Mont-de-Marsan, and the entry into operation was scheduled for the end of 2013. Thales engineers are working on new enhancements SPECTRA and various upgrades will be available soon for the domestic and export markets.
 

WolfPack86

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Rafale next aircraft to take up India’s Nuke Job ?


India and France are on the final lap of negotiations and close to an agreement to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets. 36 Rafale fighters will make up barely two Squadrons in Indian Air Force While IAF wants to further expand Rafale fleet to 60 aircraft but MOD now seems to be more interested in Making in India American F-16 or F-18 fighter jet in locally then procure more French-built Rafale Omni role fighter jet . Can Two Squadron of French Rafale fighter jets change the outcome of a war ? Not really but Rafale fighter jet might still play a vital role in India’s deterrence capabilities and might be next designated aircraft which will be tasked to deliver a nuclear weapon when needed . At Present Mirage-2000 are the first go to aircraft by India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) who are responsible for the management and administration of the country’s tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile other second lines of designated aircraft are Jaguars and Sukhoi-30 MKI in Indian Air Force fleet , Rafale most likely will supersede Mirage-2000s since French Company never shyied away in mentioning Rafale fighter jet has Nuclear Capable fighter jet in its bid documents for MMRCA Tenders and never objected in past for modifying French Mirage-2000s to carry nuclear weapons designed by India . Interestingly in 2010 Strategic Forces Command had submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up of two dedicated squadrons (40 nos) of fighter aircraft which will act as a mini-Air Force ,separately from Indian Air Force and will be dedicated Nuke delivery platform for SFC . India most likely will receive Rafale fighter jets minus Nuclear air-launched cruise missile Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP) currently been used by France to deliver singular variable yield ‘TN 81’ Nuke warhead . India is working on lighter Mach 3 capable Brahmos-NG with a range of 290km to be later modified to carry smaller nuclear warhead for similar roles in near future and plans are to adapt it to other fighter jets like Mirage-2000, Mig-29 and even Rafale Fighter jets.
http://idrw.org/rafale-next-aircraft-to-take-up-indias-nuke-job/
 

WolfPack86

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PTI: India’s Joint Nuclear Command Wants 40 Nuclear Strike Jets
A befuddling report on the wires. The Press Trust of India, reports that India’s joint nuclear command — the Strategic Forces Command — is looking to procure 40 fighters for two dedicated strategic strike squadrons. The report indicates that while the Indian Air Force’s Mirage-2000s, Jaguars and Su-30MKIs have so far been earmarked for the nuclear strike profile, the SFC wants two squadrons of its own. The report says nothing more. The Ministry of Defence has not commented on the report.

If this report is accurate — and there are no official indications so far that it is — the obvious questions would be: (a) Why does the SFC need its own fighters — why can’t it continue to depend on available IAF assets? (b) Why the need to ramp up the air-delivered leg of the nuclear triad when Indian doctrine points to more substantive deterrence from strategic land-based missiles and an SSBN fleet, and far less on air-delivered deterrence? (c) Why does a nuclear strike fleet need as many as 40 aircraft? (d) Does India have the kind of stand-off nuclear weapon capability to justify such a fresh induction of assets? (e) If the SFC were to get its own “mini air force”, would these still be operated by the IAF? (f) In which case, what difference would it make?

A totally separate but tantalizing coincidence — in June, Dassault offered the IAF a fast-track sale of 40 Rafales to shore up squadron strength ahead of the MMRCA induction. The Rafale is also the only aircraft explicitly described in its bid document as a nuclear capable strike fighter. Answers to those questions above and more details later this evening.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/09/pti-indias-joint-nuclear-command-wants.html
 

WolfPack86

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Is 36 rafales going to India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) or Indian Air Force?. Can any one please confirm above news article. I want to know?
 

BON PLAN

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PTI: India’s Joint Nuclear Command Wants 40 Nuclear Strike Jets
A befuddling report on the wires. The Press Trust of India, reports that India’s joint nuclear command — the Strategic Forces Command — is looking to procure 40 fighters for two dedicated strategic strike squadrons. The report indicates that while the Indian Air Force’s Mirage-2000s, Jaguars and Su-30MKIs have so far been earmarked for the nuclear strike profile, the SFC wants two squadrons of its own. The report says nothing more. The Ministry of Defence has not commented on the report.

If this report is accurate — and there are no official indications so far that it is — the obvious questions would be: (a) Why does the SFC need its own fighters — why can’t it continue to depend on available IAF assets? (b) Why the need to ramp up the air-delivered leg of the nuclear triad when Indian doctrine points to more substantive deterrence from strategic land-based missiles and an SSBN fleet, and far less on air-delivered deterrence? (c) Why does a nuclear strike fleet need as many as 40 aircraft? (d) Does India have the kind of stand-off nuclear weapon capability to justify such a fresh induction of assets? (e) If the SFC were to get its own “mini air force”, would these still be operated by the IAF? (f) In which case, what difference would it make?

A totally separate but tantalizing coincidence — in June, Dassault offered the IAF a fast-track sale of 40 Rafales to shore up squadron strength ahead of the MMRCA induction. The Rafale is also the only aircraft explicitly described in its bid document as a nuclear capable strike fighter. Answers to those questions above and more details later this evening.
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2010/09/pti-indias-joint-nuclear-command-wants.html
Old news.
The weapons range with the 36 Rafale explain, for me, that they are not for nuclear deterrence.
Maybe another batch of 36 ?

India has time, because Mirage 2000 and MKI are on this duty for at least 10 to 15 more years.
 

WolfPack86

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Old news.
The weapons range with the 36 Rafale explain, for me, that they are not for nuclear deterrence.
Maybe another batch of 36 ?

India has time, because Mirage 2000 and MKI are on this duty for at least 10 to 15 more years.
Then what about this news article below

Rafale next aircraft to take up India’s Nuke Job ?
India and France are on the final lap of negotiations and close to an agreement to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets. 36 Rafale fighters will make up barely two Squadrons in Indian Air Force While IAF wants to further expand Rafale fleet to 60 aircraft but MOD now seems to be more interested in Making in India American F-16 or F-18 fighter jet in locally then procure more French-built Rafale Omni role fighter jet . Can Two Squadron of French Rafale fighter jets change the outcome of a war ? Not really but Rafale fighter jet might still play a vital role in India’s deterrence capabilities and might be next designated aircraft which will be tasked to deliver a nuclear weapon when needed . At Present Mirage-2000 are the first go to aircraft by India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) who are responsible for the management and administration of the country’s tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile other second lines of designated aircraft are Jaguars and Sukhoi-30 MKI in Indian Air Force fleet , Rafale most likely will supersede Mirage-2000s since French Company never shyied away in mentioning Rafale fighter jet has Nuclear Capable fighter jet in its bid documents for MMRCA Tenders and never objected in past for modifying French Mirage-2000s to carry nuclear weapons designed by India . Interestingly in 2010 Strategic Forces Command had submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up of two dedicated squadrons (40 nos) of fighter aircraft which will act as a mini-Air Force ,separately from Indian Air Force and will be dedicated Nuke delivery platform for SFC . India most likely will receive Rafale fighter jets minus Nuclear air-launched cruise missile Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP) currently been used by France to deliver singular variable yield ‘TN 81’ Nuke warhead . India is working on lighter Mach 3 capable Brahmos-NG with a range of 290km to be later modified to carry smaller nuclear warhead for similar roles in near future and plans are to adapt it to other fighter jets like Mirage-2000, Mig-29 and even Rafale Fighter jets.
http://idrw.org/rafale-next-aircraft-to-take-up-indias-nuke-job/
 
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rohit b3

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Dassault Rafale Not In Race For 'Make in India' Fighter Aircraft Project

The French Dassault which clinched the biggest export deal with India for its Rafale fighter jet, is not in the running for now to manufacture the same fighters under the ‘Make In India’ Program.

The IAF has received “unsolicited offers” from Lockheed Martin, Boeing and Saab for building their fighters in India - the F-16 Block 70, F/A-18 Super Hornet and the Gripen E respectively, the Chief of the Indian Air Force, Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said during the course of a press conference in New Delhi yesterday.

“This is very much on the table and I’m sure whoever gives the best deal [will win]. All the aircraft are very capable, so it will depend upon who provides the best transfer of technology; and, of course, the price tag. It’s on the table; nothing is decided as yet.”

Raha added: “This will not be just licensed manufacture. It will be proper transfer of technology with India becoming a hub for manufacturing, as well as maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) for other air forces in the region.”

Under Indian Prime Minister Narandra Modi’s initiative, India scrapped a previous tender to procure 136 Rafale jets and instead opted for 36 jets off-the-shelf. All the aircraft will be built in France and shipped to India. France and Dassault will offer depot-level maintenance in India to ensure a high operational level.

Under the Make-in-India initiative for which Lockheed Martin, Saab and Boeing have made offers, the aircraft are to be built in India to meet IAF requirement as well cater to export markets.

Lockheed Martin and Saab both have offered to set up manufacturing facilities with full transfer of technology to Indian entities involved with them in the manufacture.
http://defencenews.in/article/Dassa...r-Make-in-India-Fighter-Aircraft-Project-8562
Only the corrupt AF talks such crap. You will barely see Parrikar mentioning anything else other than Tejas.
 

airtel

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@BON PLAN , France is using which type of stealth technology in nEUROn ? structural fiber mat like F-35 or RAM coatings like F-22 ?
 

BON PLAN

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Then what about this news article below

Rafale next aircraft to take up India’s Nuke Job ?
India and France are on the final lap of negotiations and close to an agreement to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets. 36 Rafale fighters will make up barely two Squadrons in Indian Air Force While IAF wants to further expand Rafale fleet to 60 aircraft but MOD now seems to be more interested in Making in India American F-16 or F-18 fighter jet in locally then procure more French-built Rafale Omni role fighter jet . Can Two Squadron of French Rafale fighter jets change the outcome of a war ? Not really but Rafale fighter jet might still play a vital role in India’s deterrence capabilities and might be next designated aircraft which will be tasked to deliver a nuclear weapon when needed . At Present Mirage-2000 are the first go to aircraft by India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) who are responsible for the management and administration of the country’s tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile other second lines of designated aircraft are Jaguars and Sukhoi-30 MKI in Indian Air Force fleet , Rafale most likely will supersede Mirage-2000s since French Company never shyied away in mentioning Rafale fighter jet has Nuclear Capable fighter jet in its bid documents for MMRCA Tenders and never objected in past for modifying French Mirage-2000s to carry nuclear weapons designed by India . Interestingly in 2010 Strategic Forces Command had submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up of two dedicated squadrons (40 nos) of fighter aircraft which will act as a mini-Air Force ,separately from Indian Air Force and will be dedicated Nuke delivery platform for SFC . India most likely will receive Rafale fighter jets minus Nuclear air-launched cruise missile Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP) currently been used by France to deliver singular variable yield ‘TN 81’ Nuke warhead . India is working on lighter Mach 3 capable Brahmos-NG with a range of 290km to be later modified to carry smaller nuclear warhead for similar roles in near future and plans are to adapt it to other fighter jets like Mirage-2000, Mig-29 and even Rafale Fighter jets.
http://idrw.org/rafale-next-aircraft-to-take-up-indias-nuke-job/
My opinion is that India will necessarily order some more Rafale. Probably not 200 or 300 as we can sometime read (I hope so, but it's more a fantasm than a dream...), but at least 72 or 80.
If not why ordering a dedicated Indian customized Rafale and not a 'simple' french air force for so few ?
 

IndianHawk

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My opinion is that India will necessarily order some more Rafale. Probably not 200 or 300 as we can sometime read (I hope so, but it's more a fantasm than a dream...), but at least 72 or 80.
If not why ordering a dedicated Indian customized Rafale and not a 'simple' french air force for so few ?
India might buy 36 more. In coming years (specifically if France delivers before schedule ) .
But I don't see 72 more it's freaking expensive.
 

BON PLAN

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India might buy 36 more. In coming years (specifically if France delivers before schedule ) .
But I don't see 72 more it's freaking expensive.
I agree with you. The 72 in my previous post was including the 36 first.

But with make in India..... why not some more?
 

WolfPack86

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Rafale Aerostructures To Be Made In Mihan-SEZ

NAGPUR: Reliance Aerostructure is expected to start manufacturing aerostructures for Rafale in a couple of months. The company had taken up land in the Multi-modal International Cargo Hub and Airport at Nagpur's (Mihan) special economic zone (SEZ) last year. This is part of the offset orders of the Rafale aircraft deal with France's Dassault.
Under an offset arrangement, any supplier bagging a major government order has to invest a part of the deal in India to make components or for maintenance.
Reliance Aerostructures, part of the Anil Dhirubhai Ambani Group (ADAG), had taken up over 100 acres in the SEZ last year to set up an aerospace park. The joint venture, Dassault Reliance Aerospace, has been formed to implement orders worth 30,000 Crores.
Initially, the company may begin with making aerostructures which are the body of the aircraft. Earlier batches of aerostructures will be flown to the Dassault manufacturing facility in France for further processing. This is because the aircraft will be first sent in a ready-to-fly condition to India, said a source involved in the process.
With the deal signed, Reliance is examining various proposals every day.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/10/rafale-aerostructures-to-be-made-in.html
 

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