Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/russias-mig-29-fulcrum-super-fighter-or-super-failure-17054

The MiG-29’s twin RD-33 turbofan engines gave it excellent acceleration and a top speed of Mach 2.25—faster than the F-16 but a bit behind the larger F-15. The MiG-29’s chief claim to fame is its superb maneuverability—it can even outperform the light-footed F-16 in both instantaneous and sustained turns (twenty-eight degree per second versus twenty-six). NATO pilots that practiced against the German Air Force Fulcrums serving in JG 73 found that in short-range dogfights at low speeds the MiG-29 was more agile than anything they threw at it.

Like the Su-27, the MiG-29 is supermaneuverable—it can execute maneuvers impossible with regular aerodynamic controls because of its excellent handling characteristics following a stall. It can also attain very high angles of attack.

Iam comparing Mig-29K and F-16 block 52+
Mig-29A 9.12 uses N019 sapfir not Zhuk-ME. Regarding kinematics later versions of both aircraft actually get worse instantaneous turn rate due to the weight gain and CLmax stayed the same

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale fighter jet deal to create thousands of jobs, India Inc to get 3 bn Euros worth biz

The 7.87 billion Euro agreement between India and France for the 36 Rafale fighter jets comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies will get business worth over 3 billion euros and generate thousands of jobs in India through offsets. (Reuters)
A decade after then defense minister AK Antony approved the Request for Proposal to buy 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft, the Indian Air Force will get its first Rafale fighter jets in the next 33 months from French company Dassault Aviation. The 36 aircraft that the IAF will get will replace the ailing MiGs. The first plane will be delivered within three and half years, and the entire lot in five years.

The 7.87 billion Euro agreement between India and France for the 36 Rafale fighter jets comes with a 50% offset clause which means that Indian companies will get business worth over 3 billion euros and generate thousands of jobs in India through offsets. This is reportedly the largest ever offset contract in India’s history. This clause is expected to boost indigenous defense production with the transfer of technology, joint ventures with local partner firms, licensed production and even perhaps relocation of production lines in the long run.
“The offset clause of 50% in the Rafale deal will provide a great opportunity for indigenous manufacturers such as us who have put in years of effort to develop world-class technology within the country,” says Puneet Kaura, MD, and CEO, Samtel Avionics. “It further outlines the commitment made by the Indian government to promote the Indian manufacturing industry and support indigenisation of defense needs of the country. There is also a possibility for India to become a global manufacturing hub for these fighter planes in case there is a successful transfer of technology.”
Since Dassault Aviation Company was not keen on the transfer of technology, under the 50% offset clause, it has agreed to help India with the Light Combat Aircraft MK 2 and AMCA.
French company Snecma (Safran)( a Dassault partner along with Thales) has proposed to invest Euro one billion in the Kaveri Gas Turbine Engine to be fitted in the LCA MK1A. Safran has developed the M88 engine that powers the Rafale as well as the Shakti engine for Indian advanced light helicopters (ALH) ‘Dhruv’.
MBDA will work with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to transfer Thrust Vectoring technologies that are expected to be used in Astra and other missiles putting them at the level of Meteor—making the missiles more lethal.
Under the deal, the French company has agreed to transfer the special spray paint and coating technology which is of immense benefit to Indian programs, including LCA, AMCA, SU-30 MKI and FGFA.
Also, it is expected that 36 combat machines could get the final layer of the stealth paint here in India as part of Make in India initiative.
The radar technology on Rafale can easily be adapted to other aircraft in IAF. As part of the deal, the multimode AESA radar technology will be transferred to DRDO for application on UTTAM AESA radar.
The high-end twin engine aircraft with a state-of-the-art electronic scanning radar will certainly add to the IAF’s capabilities. The MBDA’s new-age Meteor Beyond Visual Range missile can hit targets over 150 km away, without entering the enemy airspace before launching an attack. The aircraft is also capable of firing nuclear missiles.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/10/rafale-fighter-jet-deal-to-create.html

 

[WolfPack86]

Since Dassault Aviation Company was not keen on the transfer of technology, under the 50% offset clause, it has agreed to help India with the Light Combat Aircraft MK 2 and AMCA.
What France did not agree to transfer of technology why is the reason why France refused to for transfer of technology?.

 

[StealthFlanker]

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/russias-mig-29-fulcrum-super-fighter-or-super-failure-17054

The MiG-29’s twin RD-33 turbofan engines gave it excellent acceleration and a top speed of Mach 2.25—faster than the F-16 but a bit behind the larger F-15. The MiG-29’s chief claim to fame is its superb maneuverability—it can even outperform the light-footed F-16 in both instantaneous and sustained turns (twenty-eight degree per second versus twenty-six). NATO pilots that practiced against the German Air Force Fulcrums serving in JG 73 found that in short-range dogfights at low speeds the MiG-29 was more agile than anything they threw at it..

Mig-29 is faster than F-16 , no doubt since one has a variable intake and the others use a pitot intake
However,i dont buy that Mig-29 out perform F-16
Let look at German Mig-29 manual

There are several data points , let look at Alt = 0ft (aka sea level ) and alt = 3281 ft curve , you can see that above 550-570 knots indicated air speed , mig-29 is structured limited to 7.5G , by contrast F-16 is neither lift limited or structure limited and have no trouble make either sustain or instantaneous 9 G turn at sea level, so at low altitude the faster they go the more advantages F-16 will have over Mig-29.
Now let look at altitude = 9843 ft curve , you can see that above 500 knots IAS ( Mach 0.88) , Mig-29 can barely sustain 7.5 G (structure limit) , going faster than 570 knots IAS (Mach 1) , and it will sustain even less than 7G (lift -drag limit). On the other hand, at the same altitude F-16 has no trouble sustain 9 G at Mach 0.89 , and 8.5 G at Mach 1

Even if i was to consider the altitude = 49212 ft (lowest curve on graph ) for Mig-29, this is where Mig-29 should really shine over F-16 because it has a variable intake which mean better dynamic thrust at altitude .But even at 49k feet, Mig-29 maximum sustain G is still not superior to F-16 , limited to less than 2G for Mig-29 and about 2G for F-16 , very insignificant different if any.( not that anyone would dogfight or even cruise at this altitude anyway, unless they are in a SR-71)

Like the Su-27, the MiG-29 is supermaneuverable—it can execute maneuvers impossible with regular aerodynamic controls because of its excellent handling characteristics following a stall. It can also attain very high angles of attack.

Supermaneuverable ( or post stall maneuver ) is achieved with TVC, and high AoA characteristic at slow speed of Mig-29 is really not that special, many others aircraft such as F-18 , F-35 have that too

 

[WolfPack86]

More details on the major Rafale deal offsets

Since Dassault Aviation Company was not keen on complete ToT for just 36 jets, under the 50% offset clause, it has agreed to help India with the Light Combat Aircraft MK-2 and AMCA.

French company Snecma (Safran) has proposed to invest Euro one billion in the Kaveri Gas Turbine Engine to be fitted in the LCA MK-1A.

MBDA will work with DRDO to transfer Thrust Vectoring technologies that are expected to be used in Astra and other missiles putting them at the level of Meteor—making the missiles more lethal.

The French have agreed to transfer the special spray paint and coating technology used for RAM coating which is of immense benefit to Indian programmes, including LCA, AMCA, SU-30 MKI and FGFA. Thet 36 Rafales might also get the final layer of the stealth paint here in India as part of Make in India initiative.

RBE2 AESA technology along with its source code will be transferred to DRDO for application on UTTAM AESA radar and other programs.

Source - FE
https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/photos?ref=page_internal

 

[gadeshi]

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/russias-mig-29-fulcrum-super-fighter-or-super-failure-17054

The MiG-29’s twin RD-33 turbofan engines gave it excellent acceleration and a top speed of Mach 2.25—faster than the F-16 but a bit behind the larger F-15. The MiG-29’s chief claim to fame is its superb maneuverability—it can even outperform the light-footed F-16 in both instantaneous and sustained turns (twenty-eight degree per second versus twenty-six). NATO pilots that practiced against the German Air Force Fulcrums serving in JG 73 found that in short-range dogfights at low speeds the MiG-29 was more agile than anything they threw at it.

Like the Su-27, the MiG-29 is supermaneuverable—it can execute maneuvers impossible with regular aerodynamic controls because of its excellent handling characteristics following a stall. It can also attain very high angles of attack.

Well, MiG-29 has its own flaws the most bad from which is short range and combat radius.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

 

[BON PLAN]

More details on the major Rafale deal offsets

Since Dassault Aviation Company was not keen on complete ToT for just 36 jets, under the 50% offset clause, it has agreed to help India with the Light Combat Aircraft MK-2 and AMCA.

French company Snecma (Safran) has proposed to invest Euro one billion in the Kaveri Gas Turbine Engine to be fitted in the LCA MK-1A.

MBDA will work with DRDO to transfer Thrust Vectoring technologies that are expected to be used in Astra and other missiles putting them at the level of Meteor—making the missiles more lethal.

The French have agreed to transfer the special spray paint and coating technology used for RAM coating which is of immense benefit to Indian programmes, including LCA, AMCA, SU-30 MKI and FGFA. Thet 36 Rafales might also get the final layer of the stealth paint here in India as part of Make in India initiative.

RBE2 AESA technology along with its source code will be transferred to DRDO for application on UTTAM AESA radar and other programs.

Source - FE
https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/photos?ref=page_internal

I'm OK with all. Except RBE2AESA and its source code.... you will have the hardware, but i doubt of the software (which is a 15 year implementation).

 

[BON PLAN]

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/russias-mig-29-fulcrum-super-fighter-or-super-failure-17054

The MiG-29’s twin RD-33 turbofan engines gave it excellent acceleration and a top speed of Mach 2.25—faster than the F-16 but a bit behind the larger F-15. The MiG-29’s chief claim to fame is its superb maneuverability—it can even outperform the light-footed F-16 in both instantaneous and sustained turns (twenty-eight degree per second versus twenty-six). NATO pilots that practiced against the German Air Force Fulcrums serving in JG 73 found that in short-range dogfights at low speeds the MiG-29 was more agile than anything they threw at it.

Like the Su-27, the MiG-29 is supermaneuverable—it can execute maneuvers impossible with regular aerodynamic controls because of its excellent handling characteristics following a stall. It can also attain very high angles of attack.

Yes, the first try of a Mig 29 by west pilots were surprising, but if I remember well mostly because of the helmet combined to short range very agile missile.
The Mig 29 is an agile plane, but limited to 7.5G. It's a factor of handling limitation no?

 

[gadeshi]

Yes, the first try of a Mig 29 by west pilots were surprising, but if I remember well mostly because of the helmet combined to short range very agile missile.
The Mig 29 is an agile plane, but limited to 7.5G. It's a factor of handling limitation no?

We all punch you to your own crap for posting unclear info and direct absurds (7.5G for MiG-29 among them) but you continue to post it.
Are you mazochist?
BTW, 7.5G limit was true for MiG-23ML (increased to 8,5 on MiG-23MLD/MLA).

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

 

[BON PLAN]

We all punch you to your own crap for posting unclear info and direct absurds (7.5G for MiG-29 among them) but you continue to post it.
Are you mazochist?
BTW, 7.5G limit was true for MiG-23ML (increased to 8,5 on MiG-23MLD/MLA).

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

Even your mate StealthFlanker says the same (previous page):

"There are several data points , let look at Alt = 0ft (aka sea level ) and alt = 3281 ft curve , you can see that above 550-570 knots indicated air speed , mig-29 is structured limited to 7.5G , by contrast F-16 is neither lift limited or structure limited and have no trouble make either sustain or instantaneous 9 G turn at sea level, so at low altitude the faster they go the more advantages F-16 will have over Mig-29."

During WW2, US pilots were very impressed by the japanese Zero plane. very manoeuvrable, long legs.... until they found it has no armor, specially to protect the pilot, and adapt their tactics with the result you know.
Mig 29 is very agile BECAUSE it has short legs (less fuel = less weight = more agility). The newer mig, with longer legs will lack this special quality (if it's true. Remember the 7.5G .....)
The rules to design a fighter are the same in the west and in the east. There is not special skill in russia my dear.

 

[gadeshi]

Even your mate StealthFlanker says the same (previous page):
"There are several data points , let look at Alt = 0ft (aka sea level ) and alt = 3281 ft curve , you can see that above 550-570 knots indicated air speed , mig-29 is structured limited to 7.5G , by contrast F-16 is neither lift limited or structure limited and have no trouble make either sustain or instantaneous 9 G turn at sea level, so at low altitude the faster they go the more advantages F-16 will have over Mig-29."
During WW2, US pilots were very impressed by the japanese Zero plane. very manoeuvrable, long legs.... until they found it has no armor, specially to protect the pilot, and adapt their tactics with the result you know.
Mig 29 is very agile BECAUSE it has short legs (less fuel = less weight = more agility). The newer mig, with longer legs will lack this special quality (if it's true. Remember the 7.5G .....)
The rules to design a fighter are the same in the west and in the east. There is not special skill in russia my dear.

It's just a words against MiG-29 (9-12) RLE (Pilots Flight Manual) statements of structural limit 11G and maximum allowed for pilots is 9G.

 

[sasum]

Well, its good news for you,
Even Su-30 MKI is secure enough to carry Nuclear weapons, as a matter of fact IAF (when Rafale was in limbo) had already arranged to have 40 Su-30 MKI for SFC.
Why do you think Brahmos testing is paramount for India?

What SU 30? Even a 3rd generation plane like Jaguar can be jury-rigged to carry nuclear bomb and deliver. But using fighter jets to deliver nukes is most primitive and dangerous to the aggressor country. Forget Hiroshima. Those days were pre-missile days and US had no choice.

 

[Defcon 1]

Hi, does anyone know the difference between F35's DAS and Rafale DDM-NG? As far as I understand, both of them basically IR based MAWS systems, covering the sphere around the aircraft. Hence, both should be able to generate IR based images of are around the aircraft. However, it looks like only DAS is capable to do so, hence the capability of F35's pilot to look everywhere around the aircraft, while Rafale doesn't seem to have this capabilty.

 

[StealthFlanker]

It's just a words against MiG-29 (9-12) RLE (Pilots Flight Manual) statements of structural limit 11G and maximum allowed for pilots is 9G.

My data is from flight manual

Even your mate StealthFlanker says the same (previous page):"There are several data points , let look at Alt = 0ft (aka sea level ) and alt = 3281 ft curve , you can see that above 550-570 knots indicated air speed , mig-29 is structured limited to 7.5G

Firstly iam not his mate
Secondly , Mig-29 only start to be 7.5 G limited after 500 knots IAS , below 470 knots IAS , turning 9G is no problem.

 

[gadeshi]

My data is from flight manual

From which one?
Soviet?

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

 

[StealthFlanker]

From which one?
Soviet?

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

From the German one as stated before

I got the soviet aerodynamic manual for Mig-29(9-12) too but cant be bothered to look through hundred of pages in there

 

[StealthFlanker]

Hi, does anyone know the difference between F35's DAS and Rafale DDM-NG? As far as I understand, both of them basically IR based MAWS systems, covering the sphere around the aircraft. Hence, both should be able to generate IR based images of are around the aircraft. However, it looks like only DAS is capable to do so, hence the capability of F35's pilot to look everywhere around the aircraft, while Rafale doesn't seem to have this capabilty.

DAS have 6 IIR sensors , DDM-NG has 2 IIR sensors
DAS has a TV channel , DDM-NG doesnt which make it similar to AAR-56 on F-22 ( basically both can generate IR-based image but only DAS has a mean to display it )

 

[BON PLAN]

Hi, does anyone know the difference between F35's DAS and Rafale DDM-NG? As far as I understand, both of them basically IR based MAWS systems, covering the sphere around the aircraft. Hence, both should be able to generate IR based images of are around the aircraft. However, it looks like only DAS is capable to do so, hence the capability of F35's pilot to look everywhere around the aircraft, while Rafale doesn't seem to have this capabilty.

It's very different !

DDM means "detecteur de départ missile" => missile launch detector. It's the main use. Maybe it will be used for other things, but it's the main purpose.

DAS is used as a multi sector camera, at least. It's a far more complex system. The pilot will be able to see virtually through the airframe everyhere. When it will be operational....

 

[BON PLAN]

My data is from flight manual

Firstly iam not his mate
Secondly , Mig-29 only start to be 7.5 G limited after 500 knots IAS , below 470 knots IAS , turning 9G is no problem.

When I read some of your posts, I'm convinced you are mate....

 

[BON PLAN]

DAS have 6 IIR sensors , DDM-NG has 2 IIR sensors
DAS has a TV channel , DDM-NG doesnt which make it similar to AAR-56 on F-22 ( basically both can generate IR-based image but only DAS has a mean to display it )

You can add Rafale has a near IR TV in OSF (Front sector optronic). And all the datas are fused before beiing presented to the pilot.