Know Your 'Rafale'

[Raj Malhotra]

I am proud of Rafale it is fully 5 legged Cheetah. The fifth leg is used to scratch the right back.

 

[BON PLAN]

I think Saudi Typhoons will be slightly more advance than Rafales in Asia... I don't know if Indian F3 Rafales are equally good to Saudi Typhoons though

The Typhoons lack of air to ground capacity. only comming.... but postponed year after year....

In Dog fight Rafale usually win against EF.

In Beyond visual range, I don't know. Maybe EF better today. Only Maybe, because Rafale has now an AESA radar, EF not. Biut AMRAAM has a longer range than Mica.... so ????
But the second plane in the world to receive operationaly the Meteor will be Rafale (after Gripen, but before EF).

 

[BON PLAN]

I don't know... may be experts like Bon Plan or Tactical Frog can explain here

I'm not an expert. Just a guy reading and listening things about fighters until 30+ years (I'm 50)

 

[BON PLAN]

Yes not only we can afford 2 different MRCA, it will also make our air force look like a zoo... F-16 and F-18 are out of question and Gripen too will not be selected due to American engine... Okay to buy US choppers, transport planes, artillery but fighter jet is front line offensive system and for that matter I think India will trust France more than US... Its certainly going to be additional Rafales for MII...

I agree 200% with you !

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale jets 'exceptional', will like to have more of it: IAF chief Arup Raha
Asked if 18 more aircraft would be procured, IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said, "Well, we would like to have more. But it is a decision that will be taken in the near future."
NEW DELHI: Describing the Rafale fighter jets as "exceptional", IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha today said the force would like to have more of the aircraft and insisted that the recently signed contract for 36 fighters was better than other such deals.
He also spoke about "unsolicited offers" that India has received from Boeing, Saab and Locheed Martin to manufacture fighter aircraft in India and said the company which offers the best deal will be selected.
He said SAAB's Gripen is a "good fighter" as compared to others like F-16 of Lockheed Martin but the decision will depend on many factors.
"Any air force will be proud to have aircraft of the Rafale class which is in mid-weight category. In terms of its weapons capability, air-to-air missiles, beyond visual range, air-to-ground, its avionics, instrumentation and warfare suite, it is exceptional and one of the leading aircraft of the current generation," Raha said.
Asked if 18 more aircraft would be procured, he said, "Well, we would like to have more. But it is a decision that will be taken in the near future."
The 7.878 billion Euros (Rs 59,000 crore) deal for 36 Rafale fighter jets was signed on September 23. The new planes will give a big boost to IAF's defence and strike power.
The most important aspect of the deal, apart from the fact that the Rafale is a 4.5 generation fighter jet, is the firepower that India is getting in the form of long-range and Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles.
Rafale jets will come equipped with state-of-the-art missiles such as Meteor and Scalp. Meteor is a BVR air-to-air missile with a range in excess of 150km.
"It is better in terms of price, performance-based logistics, missiles among others," he said on the Rafale deal in comparison to the MMRCA tender and deals signed by France with other countries in world.
On the induction of light combat aircraft Tejas, he said it would be done in six squadrons, including the upgraded version. He said the next version called Tejas 'Mark-A' would come with better radar, weapons, avionics, and its production will start in 2021.
Raha also said IAF would also be upgrading the Sukhoi 30 MKI fighter jets besides the Jaguar.
On the integration of BrahMos missiles with the Sukhoi 30 MKI, Raha said, "We hope to fire a live missile in three months."
The IAF chief, who heads the Chiefs of Staff Committee (CoSC), a body of the three service chiefs, said he hoped the government would resolve the issues of the 7th Pay Commission and that the forces have decided to implement it based on the government's assurances.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/10/rafale-jets-exceptional-iaf-will-like.html

 

[tharun]

How flares and chaffs gone a work aganist radar guided missiles and self homing missiles?

 

[BON PLAN]

How flares and chaffs gone a work aganist radar guided missiles and self homing missiles?

ouhhhh..... you are off topic my friend.

 

[PD_Solo]

The Typhoons lack of air to ground capacity. only comming.... but postponed year after year....

In Dog fight Rafale usually win against EF.

In Beyond visual range, I don't know. Maybe EF better today. Only Maybe, because Rafale has now an AESA radar, EF not. Biut AMRAAM has a longer range than Mica.... so ????
But the second plane in the world to receive operationaly the Meteor will be Rafale (after Gripen, but before EF).

Meteor shall be a game changer as for its superior no escape zone and best in class tail chase, thanks to the ramjet.

 

[syncro]

How flares and chaffs gone a work aganist radar guided missiles and self homing missiles?

flares are againt IR missiles, chaffs against radar and radar missiles and there are also the new active espendable decoys as Finmeccanica BriteCloud also againt guided radar missiles that can be fired from standard chaff dispensers (Grippen and RAF Tornado/Typhoon started using them).

http://www.leonardocompany.com/-/britecloud-3

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/...ntromisura-antimissile-britecloud-per-la-raf/

 

[syncro]

The Typhoons lack of air to ground capacity. only comming.... but postponed year after year....

In Dog fight Rafale usually win against EF.

In Beyond visual range, I don't know. Maybe EF better today. Only Maybe, because Rafale has now an AESA radar, EF not. Biut AMRAAM has a longer range than Mica.... so ????
But the second plane in the world to receive operationaly the Meteor will be Rafale (after Gripen, but before EF).

uff... too few... only 56 paveway IV released over the head of ISIS tugs from this thypoon.

Siria/Iraq: Jan-March 2016: Typhoons dropped 252 Paveway IV. Tornados GR4 dropped 147 Paveway IV and fired 42 Brimstone. Reaper: 47 Hellfire and 5 GBU-12.

The only ground attack with the onboard cannon was by a Thypoon that fired 26 rounds.

But overall the Cheese Eater is right ... the EF-2000 substantially lack of air-to-ground capabilities, but it is a political and technical decision: the UK has only integrated the weapons that produces: Paveway IV and Brimstone, so it can continue to suck money from Saudi Arabia & allies, Germany is not much interested in bombing anyone and in any case still has 100 (150) Tornados for that, Italy same as Germany and has about 60 Tornados and 55 AMX for that and the future for bombing are cover by F-35s.

 

[Defcon 1]

uff... too few... only 56 paveway IV released over the head of ISIS tugs from this thypoon.

Siria/Iraq: Jan-March 2016: Typhoons dropped 252 Paveway IV. Tornados GR4 dropped 147 Paveway IV and fired 42 Brimstone. Reaper: 47 Hellfire and 5 GBU-12.

The only ground attack with the onboard cannon was by a Thypoon that fired 26 rounds.

But overall the Cheese Eater is right ... the EF-2000 substantially lack of air-to-ground capabilities, but it is a political and technical decision: the UK has only integrated the weapons that produces: Paveway IV and Brimstone, so it can continue to suck money from Saudi Arabia & allies, Germany is not much interested in bombing anyone and in any case still has 100 (150) Tornados for that, Italy same as Germany and has about 60 Tornados and 55 AMX for that and the future for bombing are cover by F-35s.

Brimstone is not yet integrated. And where is stormshadow? And anti ship missile, or a nuclear missile? Right now, EFT carries as many weapons as much as LCA which is still waiting for its FOC.

 

[syncro]

Technically you're right on the integration of the Brimstone, but unofficially they are already integrated at 100%. Then it makes little sense to hit with a little missile with a warhead of only 10 kg (but it costs more than $ 200,000) targets that are worth $ 5,000-10,000 at most.

The about 50 Brimstone launched are just a commercial ads.

The StormShadow?? bah... the few launched in Libya by the British (5?) had a ridiculous low hit percentage, but probable was a Brits fault (moreover the Brits have 900 of them... 900 lemons probable), the French have reduced the stock only to 100 from the original 500 (not sure if was 400 or 500), we Italians have launched in Libya 33 StormShadow: 32 full hit, 1 missing, but since the Italian MoD said that in Libya our Tornados have made their deepest penetration into hostile territory, probably italians stormshadows were used to hit installations and ammunition depots in the desert or not very populated areas, so easy targets (and no reintegration of used missiles)... Dont seems that the main users are very satisfied with the missile.

In any case the range of the stormshadow is too short with the modern Air Defences... in Kossovo war agaist a little nation with a outdated airdefence, NATO warplanes fired 700 HARM missiles (350 from USA F-16 CJ, 235 from German Tornados ECR and 115 from Italian Tornados ECR) to keep down enemy AD... against a real enemy the stormshadows are useless.

 

[WolfPack86]

Special team for Rafale readies ground work, to visit France

BANGALORE: Indian Air Force's (IAF) elite test pilots are preparing the groundwork for constituting a project management team that will soon travel to France and work with Dassault in customizing the aircraft for India's operational needs. India signed a Rs 60,000 crore deal with Dassault to procure 36 fighters under the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) program recently.
The team will be constituted at the Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) headquartered in Bangalore, its commandant Air Vice Marshal Sandeep Singh confirmed to TOI.
It was ASTE which did the field trials for all six contenders—Lockheed Martin's F-16; Boeing's F/A-18 E/F; European Eurofighter Typhoon; the Swedish Gripen; the French Dassault's Rafale and the Russian Mig-35.
Out of the six contenders, only the Eurofighter Typhoon and Rafale met all the 750 quality requirements, including weapon systems. ASTE clarified that they do not compare aircraft and that only clear them based on requirement and that the decision of picking one is made at a higher level.
Singh explained that the team, once constituted will have pilots, engineers, and aircrew. "The size of the team will vary. For the Su-30MKI for example, we had a 10 member team," he said.
Given that the ASTE has already flown Rafale, a smaller team will be going to France. The advantage that this will give the IAF is that it will bring back a known platform, which its pilots understand.
SU30-Brahmos Integration Soon
Further, Singh said that the Su30-MKI and air-launched cruise missile Brahmos will happen soon with the firing of the actual missile. "Advanced trials are ongoing as we speak. We've already completed a dummy drop and the next drop will be the actual missile," he said.
The integration will enable IAF to strike targets 300km away and the aircraft had to be modified to accommodate this missile.
The IAF's initial requirement is for two Su-30 MKIs with BrahMos but it eventually wishes to integrate 216 missiles on 42 Sukhois. The project was conceived in July-August 2012 and as TOI had reported late in 2015, some quality certification issues have delayed the integration, which was to be complete by the end of 2015.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/10/special-team-for-rafale-readies-ground.html

 

[BON PLAN]

uff... too few... only 56 paveway IV released over the head of ISIS tugs from this thypoon.

Siria/Iraq: Jan-March 2016: Typhoons dropped 252 Paveway IV. Tornados GR4 dropped 147 Paveway IV and fired 42 Brimstone. Reaper: 47 Hellfire and 5 GBU-12.

The only ground attack with the onboard cannon was by a Thypoon that fired 26 rounds.

But overall the Cheese Eater is right ... the EF-2000 substantially lack of air-to-ground capabilities, but it is a political and technical decision: the UK has only integrated the weapons that produces: Paveway IV and Brimstone, so it can continue to suck money from Saudi Arabia & allies, Germany is not much interested in bombing anyone and in any case still has 100 (150) Tornados for that, Italy same as Germany and has about 60 Tornados and 55 AMX for that and the future for bombing are cover by F-35s.

It's not totally true.
EF2000 was studied from the beginning to be a pure fighter, not a multirole fighter. The add of air to ground weapon was made too late after the design was freezed. So some configurations are difficult to be sustained, specially after the released of a part of the weapons (Problem with center of gravity).

And more important : the plane in air to ground config lacks of heavy external talks, so it has short legs. And what to think about the location of a laser designating pod !!! It take the place of one of the small external tanks .....

 

[BON PLAN]

Technically you're right on the integration of the Brimstone, but unofficially they are already integrated at 100%. Then it makes little sense to hit with a little missile with a warhead of only 10 kg (but it costs more than $ 200,000) targets that are worth $ 5,000-10,000 at most.

The about 50 Brimstone launched are just a commercial ads.

The StormShadow?? bah... the few launched in Libya by the British (5?) had a ridiculous low hit percentage, but probable was a Brits fault (moreover the Brits have 900 of them... 900 lemons probable), the French have reduced the stock only to 100 from the original 500 (not sure if was 400 or 500), we Italians have launched in Libya 33 StormShadow: 32 full hit, 1 missing, but since the Italian MoD said that in Libya our Tornados have made their deepest penetration into hostile territory, probably italians stormshadows were used to hit installations and ammunition depots in the desert or not very populated areas, so easy targets (and no reintegration of used missiles)... Dont seems that the main users are very satisfied with the missile.

In any case the range of the stormshadow is too short with the modern Air Defences... in Kossovo war agaist a little nation with a outdated airdefence, NATO warplanes fired 700 HARM missiles (350 from USA F-16 CJ, 235 from German Tornados ECR and 115 from Italian Tornados ECR) to keep down enemy AD... against a real enemy the stormshadows are useless.

once again it's not totally true.

The french SCALP (same product than Storm Shadow) demonstrate a very high accuracy. It was said that during Lybian campaign in 2011, two SCALP were fired against a same target. There was only one entry hole ! the second missile penetrate by the hole made by the first. Even US specialists were impressed.
The 100 remaining of the french stockpile was a politic choice to upgrade only these 100 (400 decided earlier...). That's why it is heavily used nowadays in Syria/Irak, instead of destroying the remaining one (other than the famous 100) on the ground.

Range of SCALP is unofficially of more than 450km.... What is the SAM system able to reach a target 450km away, specially with a low altitude approach ?

 

[vishwaprasad]

The Typhoons lack of air to ground capacity. only comming.... but postponed year after year....

In Dog fight Rafale usually win against EF.

In Beyond visual range, I don't know. Maybe EF better today. Only Maybe, because Rafale has now an AESA radar, EF not. Biut AMRAAM has a longer range than Mica.... so ????
But the second plane in the world to receive operationaly the Meteor will be Rafale (after Gripen, but before EF).

You are right BON PLAN, one should also not forget that Rafale can do naval rolls too which Typhoons cannot... and once Meteor is operational both will have equal BVR capacity... so overall one can say that Rafale is better than Typhoons because of the variety of task, strike, naval operations it can perform.

AMARAAM means are Typhoons aremed with AIM 120?

 

[WolfPack86]

India Mulls Rafale or Gripen Combat Aircraft Over F-16

In what could be a difficult road ahead for US manufacturers Boeing and Lockheed Martin, Indian Air Force Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha will prefer the company that would not only set up its production line in India but would also be ready to transfer technology. During Defense Minister Manohar Parrikar's visit to the US in August, Boeing and Lockheed Martin made official proposals to manufacture F/A-18 and F-16s respectively under the "Make in India" campaign.

Air Chief Marshal Raha said that companies like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, and SAAB had offered to set up manufacturing units for combat aircraft in India.

India and France have already signed an intergovernmental agreement for 36 Rafale combat aircraft. The first Rafale is expected to be inducted into Indian Air Force by 2019.

"Any air force would be proud to have aircraft of the Rafale class, which is in the mid-weight category. A decision on more numbers of Rafale jets will be taken in the near future which would be based on its capability," said Raha.

Raha said that Sweden's Gripen fighter aircraft is a good fighter as compared to others like the F-16, but their final decision will take into consideration whomever gives the best deal, the capabilities and the transfer of technology.

Earlier in June this year, Raha inspected the SAAB production facility in Linkoping, Sweden. SAAB offered to develop, manufacture and undertake the final assembly of its Gripen E fighter jet in India. The Indian Air Force currently has 33 active fighter squadrons.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/India-Mulls-Rafale-or-Gripen-Combat-Aircraft-Over-F-16-8515

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Not the Gripen please,not the Gripen.I would even take the FA 18 over it.

 

[syncro]

Partially wrong... Thyphoon had the MARTE ER missile as naval weapon and this limitation is another politic choice.
Both EF-2000 and Rafale are expensive toys... only few rich countries can buy them and the main target of EF-2000 sell are the arabian gulf countries... no one wants to give them a true capacity to thread frigate size warships, oil tankers and other civilian ships around the Suez canal... the MARTE ER with it small warhead (75 kg) is the max that western producers can give as naval weapon to those countries... it is the same story because the Egyptians F16 dont have long range missiles as AIM 120 and no naval missiles as Harpoons (add also Israel in the equation).

 

[BON PLAN]

You are right BON PLAN, one should also not forget that Rafale can do naval rolls too which Typhoons cannot... and once Meteor is operational both will have equal BVR capacity... so overall one can say that Rafale is better than Typhoons because of the variety of task, strike, naval operations it can perform.

AMARAAM means are Typhoons aremed with AIM 120?

Yes, EF primary actual air to air missile is the US AMRAAM AIM120.