Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

It will be fun to see the story of Meteor in India and the face of Parrikar.
Leonardo-Finmeccanica owns 25% of MBDA... indian meteors without 25% of pieces ... no warhead or engine?

Engine is Deutsh.
I'm sure Italy will be very satisfied to sell some thing in India in a near future....

 

[BON PLAN]

What do you mean syncro? do you mean to say that for Meteor warhead and engine India needs approval from Italy?

I don't think so .
Italy has no problem with India. It's India which has problem with Italy. I'm sure this time, and for such a weapon, India will close the eyes....

 

[BON PLAN]

IAF version of Rafael will use modified engines with 90 kn thrusts

Absolutely no evidence of that here in France. Unfortunately.
Or it will be a nice surprise, for India and for other futur customers.

 

[BON PLAN]

Indications are it wont be a Rafale.

Your source please?

I don't agree. When you see it takes 4 1/2 years from L1 annoucement to a firm (reduced) order, I'm afraid India doesn't have time to discuss with another supplier.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Maybe you are rite but I think such high price for Rafale 36 numbers which India is paying there must be some adjustment done by France and India for future Rafale orders and its cost... Gripen will be a big mistake India will do, not only sanction prone US engine of Gripen but we should not also forget that how Swidish themselves too tried to sanction us during Kargil war when we were using Bofors guns... France on other hand supplied us everything we wanted to use on our Mirages... Rafale has commonality with Mirage 2000 in many systems... it can't be any other fighter now other than Rafale

Yes,French are less sanctions prone than Unkils.Actually its strange that India and Israel haven colloborated to develop a fighter.

 

[AmoghaVarsha]

Your source please?

I don't agree. When you see it takes 4 1/2 years from L1 annoucement to a firm (reduced) order, I'm afraid India doesn't have time to discuss with another supplier.

Various statements,seems Gripen is being considered actively.

March 17 is the date for the announcement of the new fighter.Lets wait.

 

[BON PLAN]

GRIPEN is a nice plane. Perfectly suited to replace Mig21.

But don't forget Tejas !!!! Without Tejas Gripen will have a lot of chance. But Tejas is here, and is the symbol of India aerospace industry.

Bad luck Gripen. You are a good looking light fighter but not in India.

 

[airtel]

10 years... but this in not a problem... the problem is that the european defence firms are heavy interconnected and a large country like India with ambitions of being a global player needs to stop this kinds of childish moves (only for laughable reasons of internal political gain).

I see discussion about the Grippen in this thread... 32% of Grippen parts are from Finmeccanica... your Pilatus trainers are almost a Finmeccanica products... there are rumors for merge discussions DCNS-Fincantieri (Fincantieri is a naval branch of Finmeccanica)... etc.. etc.

In India we dont give a damn about Finmeccanica , how the hell ban on Finmeccanica will Help politically ? 99.99% people dont even know the name of Finmeccanica ..............

Finmeccanica was temperately banned because of corruption charges .............and this is an Inter-Government Agreement .

 

[IndianHawk]

what's this hoopla about american engine in gripen. we are using ge engine in lca anyway.
ps I am strictly against any light fighter only LCA TEJAS is acceptable.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/10/iaf-chief-blames-upa-for-procurement.html


http://defencenews.in/article/Rafal...-will-like-procure-more-of-it--IAF-Chief-8502


http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ays-iafs-air-chief-marshal-arup-raha-3065206/



As per Raha IAF Chief the Scenario for LCA is 120 Mk by around 2028 ie less than 10 per annum. Which matches with my earlier prognosis in BRF that production rate is not going to be enhanced to 16 per annum. HAL has no mandate to enhance production and even if starts the process, the production line will not be enhanced to 16 per annum before 2022-23.

Number of Roadblocks are indicated for LCA like first squadron within 1.5 years but Second FOC squadron only from third year onwards giving a gap of 1.5 years. Similar to Arjun, Dhansuh, Nag, Pinaka, Indian AD Gun story.

But Look at the enthusiasm for upgrading 30 year old Jags at US$ 40 million a pop but no enthusiasm for brand new LCA at US$ 20 apiece.

Today top military brass has to bear responsibility for misadvising the Govt. Do they go to political bosses and say, defer K-9 and Spike purchases as NVDs, BPJs, Shields, 106mm RCL are more important in the war that is being currently fought or any possible war that is actually envisaged.


Everybody loves arming for full scale all out air and mechanised warfare as it requires lots of gold plated costly toys which will never be used compared to equipment for light infantry.



Look at the statements of Raha, regarding imports, does one ever hear such statements in favour of routine indigenous equipment. Does Raha say, that even his Garudas and Base forces are short of NVDs, BPJs, Shields, undergrowth clearing equipment, reinforced hangers, spare parts, simulators etc. NO! He will ONLY talk about GRIPEN and another line of imports or more Rafales. CAG records that for Rs 5000 crore AWACS the hangers worth Rs 11 crore were delayed leading to damage to aircraft and the runaway has still not been extended.



How is Raha able to say that Rafale is super aircraft? Without even one Indian specific aircraft reaching India or even being manufactured?

WE HAVE THE HONOUR OF PURCHASING WORLD'S MOST EXPENSIVE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT IN PRODUCTION AT USD 150 MILLION (Bare Aircraft plus India specific modifications)

What is the focus of IAF chief as per his own statements? GRIPEN, RAFALE, PAKFA, costly imported upgrades to Jags, Su-30MKI. But no mention of :-


Spare parts, maintenance for other in service aircraft
Simulators
BPJs, Helmets, Shields, NVDs fro Garuda force
Protected pens for aircraft and ammo storage or Base Security
HTT-40, IJT, Saras, Rustom, LCH, LUH, ALH, Rudra
LCA MK-2, AMCA, AURORA , IMRH, RTA, NCA

 

[Defcon 1]

Technically you're right on the integration of the Brimstone, but unofficially they are already integrated at 100%. Then it makes little sense to hit with a little missile with a warhead of only 10 kg (but it costs more than $ 200,000) targets that are worth $ 5,000-10,000 at most.

The about 50 Brimstone launched are just a commercial ads.

The StormShadow?? bah... the few launched in Libya by the British (5?) had a ridiculous low hit percentage, but probable was a Brits fault (moreover the Brits have 900 of them... 900 lemons probable), the French have reduced the stock only to 100 from the original 500 (not sure if was 400 or 500), we Italians have launched in Libya 33 StormShadow: 32 full hit, 1 missing, but since the Italian MoD said that in Libya our Tornados have made their deepest penetration into hostile territory, probably italians stormshadows were used to hit installations and ammunition depots in the desert or not very populated areas, so easy targets (and no reintegration of used missiles)... Dont seems that the main users are very satisfied with the missile.

In any case the range of the stormshadow is too short with the modern Air Defences... in Kossovo war agaist a little nation with a outdated airdefence, NATO warplanes fired 700 HARM missiles (350 from USA F-16 CJ, 235 from German Tornados ECR and 115 from Italian Tornados ECR) to keep down enemy AD... against a real enemy the stormshadows are useless.

I am sorry, but what bullcrap are you talking about?
Brimstone is not integrated, period. If you are claiming they have integrated unoffically, kindly share proof. They were anyways not going to be used in combat since they are anti armor missiles.

Technically you're right on the integration of the Brimstone, but unofficially they are already integrated at 100%. Then it makes little sense to hit with a little missile with a warhead of only 10 kg (but it costs more than $ 200,000) targets that are worth $ 5,000-10,000 at most.

The about 50 Brimstone launched are just a commercial ads.

The StormShadow?? bah... the few launched in Libya by the British (5?) had a ridiculous low hit percentage, but probable was a Brits fault (moreover the Brits have 900 of them... 900 lemons probable), the French have reduced the stock only to 100 from the original 500 (not sure if was 400 or 500), we Italians have launched in Libya 33 StormShadow: 32 full hit, 1 missing, but since the Italian MoD said that in Libya our Tornados have made their deepest penetration into hostile territory, probably italians stormshadows were used to hit installations and ammunition depots in the desert or not very populated areas, so easy targets (and no reintegration of used missiles)... Dont seems that the main users are very satisfied with the missile.

In any case the range of the stormshadow is too short with the modern Air Defences... in Kossovo war agaist a little nation with a outdated airdefence, NATO warplanes fired 700 HARM missiles (350 from USA F-16 CJ, 235 from German Tornados ECR and 115 from Italian Tornados ECR) to keep down enemy AD... against a real enemy the stormshadows are useless.

Technically you're right on the integration of the Brimstone, but unofficially they are already integrated at 100%. Then it makes little sense to hit with a little missile with a warhead of only 10 kg (but it costs more than $ 200,000) targets that are worth $ 5,000-10,000 at most.

The about 50 Brimstone launched are just a commercial ads.

The StormShadow?? bah... the few launched in Libya by the British (5?) had a ridiculous low hit percentage, but probable was a Brits fault (moreover the Brits have 900 of them... 900 lemons probable), the French have reduced the stock only to 100 from the original 500 (not sure if was 400 or 500), we Italians have launched in Libya 33 StormShadow: 32 full hit, 1 missing, but since the Italian MoD said that in Libya our Tornados have made their deepest penetration into hostile territory, probably italians stormshadows were used to hit installations and ammunition depots in the desert or not very populated areas, so easy targets (and no reintegration of used missiles)... Dont seems that the main users are very satisfied with the missile.

In any case the range of the stormshadow is too short with the modern Air Defences... in Kossovo war agaist a little nation with a outdated airdefence, NATO warplanes fired 700 HARM missiles (350 from USA F-16 CJ, 235 from German Tornados ECR and 115 from Italian Tornados ECR) to keep down enemy AD... against a real enemy the stormshadows are useless.

So basically EFT will keep carrying as many weapons as LCA till SPEAR 3 comes in. Glad to know India made the right decision in MMRCA program. Until different versions of SPEAR 3 are developed, EFT will continue to lack critical A2G, anti ship and strategic capabilities.

 

[BON PLAN]

WE HAVE THE HONOUR OF PURCHASING WORLD'S MOST EXPENSIVE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT IN PRODUCTION AT USD 150 MILLION (Bare Aircraft plus India specific modifications)

Maybe because it's the most effective plane in production today. no?

 

[airtel]

As the Rafale deal is close to getting concluded, let’s look at how the $8.8 billion total is broken up;

~ The fly away cost for a single Rafale airframe is $85 Million (according to official french documents)
So for 36 Rafales = 36 x 85 = $3.06 Billion.

~ IAF is getting two types of air to air missiles the Mica and Meteor as well as two types of air to ground missiles that includes the Scalp and AASM. So the weapons package per Rafale costs around $20 million (average) = 36 x 20 = $720 Million.

~ Setting up of two bases, logistics and engineering/maintenance infrastructure along with support for 10 years will cost $2.5 Billion.

~ Customization as required by the IAF that includes increased high altitude and hot weather performance, Indian weapons, improved engines etc will cost $2 Billion.

~ An additional clause added to the IGA that gives autonomy to the Indian Govt. whether to opt out from buying additional tranches of Rafales (excluding the follow on 18) without any financial repercussions and other conditions including an inflation cap at 3.5% will add another $500 Million.

Contrary to what the paid media is trying to convince, the current Rafale deal is the best one we could ever get. The long time that was required to pen down this contract was because this will be set as the benchmark for all future negotiations with any government. Only deals as good as this one or better would be accepted.

Hence each part of the deal had to be scrutinized in detail multiple times by the Financial Ministry and Law Ministry, in addition to the Defence Ministry checks.

source = https://mobile.facebook.com/TejasMrca/photos/a.168707089859416.45926.138059529590839/1260353924028055/?type=3&refid=52&__tn__=*s

 

[Rushil51]

Don't know the reliability of this news (or the reporter) but seems like a logical step.

 

[Bahamut]

As the Rafale deal is close to getting concluded, let’s look at how the $8.8 billion total is broken up;

~ The fly away cost for a single Rafale airframe is $85 Million (according to official french documents)
So for 36 Rafales = 36 x 85 = $3.06 Billion.

~ IAF is getting two types of air to air missiles the Mica and Meteor as well as two types of air to ground missiles that includes the Scalp and AASM. So the weapons package per Rafale costs around $20 million (average) = 36 x 20 = $720 Million.

~ Setting up of two bases, logistics and engineering/maintenance infrastructure along with support for 10 years will cost $2.5 Billion.

~ Customization as required by the IAF that includes increased high altitude and hot weather performance, Indian weapons, improved engines etc will cost $2 Billion.

~ An additional clause added to the IGA that gives autonomy to the Indian Govt. whether to opt out from buying additional tranches of Rafales (excluding the follow on 18) without any financial repercussions and other conditions including an inflation cap at 3.5% will add another $500 Million.

Contrary to what the paid media is trying to convince, the current Rafale deal is the best one we could ever get. The long time that was required to pen down this contract was because this will be set as the benchmark for all future negotiations with any government. Only deals as good as this one or better would be accepted.

Hence each part of the deal had to be scrutinized in detail multiple times by the Financial Ministry and Law Ministry, in addition to the Defence Ministry checks.

source = https://mobile.facebook.com/TejasMrca/photos/a.168707089859416.45926.138059529590839/1260353924028055/?type=3&refid=52&__tn__=*s

There is no estimate here for spares, training ,hanger etc plus weapons package will wasily cost more the 20$million for each jet

 

[airtel]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[airtel]

There is no estimate here for spares, training ,hanger etc plus weapons package will wasily cost more the 20$million for each jet

yes all these missiles are much more costly ..............i just shared the post , those calculations are not mine .

 

[StealthFlanker]

two SCALP were fired against a same target. There was only one entry hole ! the second missile penetrate by the hole made by the first.

Pretty sure this is BS

Range of SCALP is unofficially of more than 450km.... What is the SAM system able to reach a target 450km away, specially with a low altitude approach ?

Problem is you cannot always locate a SAM battery from 450 km

 

[WolfPack86]

India Unlikely To Buy Additional Rafale Fighter Jets, MoD Source Says
NEW DELHI — India is unlikely to acquire additional Rafale fighter jets because the Indian Air Force (IAF) is "fully satisfied" following the recently signed $8.8 billion deal to purchase 36 of the fighters, according to a source with the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD).

"[N]o additional purchase is being contemplated," the MoD source said of the aircraft.

The Sept. 23 contract between India and France has no optional clause for additional fighters, which would mean any additional purchases would have to be negotiated with a fresh price, the source added.
However, Amit Cowshish, a former financial adviser for the MoD, said the "absence of [an] option[al] clause does not rule out the possibility of acquiring more of the same aircraft," adding that "even a separate contract can be negotiated at the same price."

"Indian Air Force just has 33 squadrons as against the felt need of 42 to 45 squadrons. This strength will go down further as 10-11 squadrons are scheduled to be phased out in the next few years. It is in this
background that the possibility of new Rafale fighters aircraft assumes significance," Cowshish said.

Although there could be a future need for more fighters, Cowshish said: "It seems unlikely that the entire requirement will be made up by acquiring Rafale aircraft, for had that been the intention India would not have gone in for acquisition of just two squadrons at this stage."
At an Oct. 5 news conference here, Chief of the Air Staff of the Indian Air Force (IAF) Air Chief Marshal Arup Raha said: "Any air force would be proud to have aircraft of the Rafale class, which is in the mid-weight category." On the possibility of buying additional Rafale, Raha said: "A decision on more numbers of Rafale jets will be taken in the near future, which would be based on its capability."

However, Vivek Rae, the MoD's former director general of acquisition, said that "given the depleted strength of IAF squadrons, it is clear that IAF will have to purchase more Rafale aircraft in [the] future. The quantum will depend on availability of funds."

"The truncated Rafale deal is the direct outcome of budgetary constraints," Rae added. India had chose to buy only 36 Rafale after cancelling the program to acquire 126 Rafale
IAF officials, however, say adding additional types of fighter aircraft to the fleet would not be as economical as purchasing additional Rafale jets.

"It is obvious that the long-term, per-aircraft maintenance costs of a small fleet of aircraft will always be higher than for larger numbers, whether there are life cycle guarantees or otherwise," said Subhash
Bhojwani, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst.
IAF currently has seven aircraft types: Sukhoi Su-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and homemade Tejas Light Combat Aircraft. The Rafale will be the eighth type.

"With no clear indication as of now that additional Rafale would be bought, a window is open wide for the acquisition of another type of fighter," another MoD source said.

Daljit Singh, a retired IAF air marshal and defense analyst said: "IAF requirement was for 126 aircraft and that requirement still holds. Also, the defence minister has announced that the government would earmark one fighter by the end of the year that would be manufactured in India. Whether it would be Rafale or not is not clear as yet."
http://www.defensenews.com/articles...dditional-rafale-fighter-jets-mod-source-says

 

[Defcon 1]

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2016/10/iaf-chief-blames-upa-for-procurement.html


http://defencenews.in/article/Rafale-Fighter-Jets-‘Exceptional’,-IAF-will-like-procure-more-of-it--IAF-Chief-8502


http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ays-iafs-air-chief-marshal-arup-raha-3065206/



As per Raha IAF Chief the Scenario for LCA is 120 Mk by around 2028 ie less than 10 per annum. Which matches with my earlier prognosis in BRF that production rate is not going to be enhanced to 16 per annum. HAL has no mandate to enhance production and even if starts the process, the production line will not be enhanced to 16 per annum before 2022-23.

Number of Roadblocks are indicated for LCA like first squadron within 1.5 years but Second FOC squadron only from third year onwards giving a gap of 1.5 years. Similar to Arjun, Dhansuh, Nag, Pinaka, Indian AD Gun story.

But Look at the enthusiasm for upgrading 30 year old Jags at US$ 40 million a pop but no enthusiasm for brand new LCA at US$ 20 apiece.

Today top military brass has to bear responsibility for misadvising the Govt. Do they go to political bosses and say, defer K-9 and Spike purchases as NVDs, BPJs, Shields, 106mm RCL are more important in the war that is being currently fought or any possible war that is actually envisaged.


Everybody loves arming for full scale all out air and mechanised warfare as it requires lots of gold plated costly toys which will never be used compared to equipment for light infantry.



Look at the statements of Raha, regarding imports, does one ever hear such statements in favour of routine indigenous equipment. Does Raha say, that even his Garudas and Base forces are short of NVDs, BPJs, Shields, undergrowth clearing equipment, reinforced hangers, spare parts, simulators etc. NO! He will ONLY talk about GRIPEN and another line of imports or more Rafales. CAG records that for Rs 5000 crore AWACS the hangers worth Rs 11 crore were delayed leading to damage to aircraft and the runaway has still not been extended.



How is Raha able to say that Rafale is super aircraft? Without even one Indian specific aircraft reaching India or even being manufactured?

WE HAVE THE HONOUR OF PURCHASING WORLD'S MOST EXPENSIVE FIGHTER AIRCRAFT IN PRODUCTION AT USD 150 MILLION (Bare Aircraft plus India specific modifications)

What is the focus of IAF chief as per his own statements? GRIPEN, RAFALE, PAKFA, costly imported upgrades to Jags, Su-30MKI. But no mention of :-


Spare parts, maintenance for other in service aircraft
Simulators
BPJs, Helmets, Shields, NVDs fro Garuda force
Protected pens for aircraft and ammo storage or Base Security
HTT-40, IJT, Saras, Rustom, LCH, LUH, ALH, Rudra
LCA MK-2, AMCA, AURORA , IMRH, RTA, NCA

Where did you get that year 2028?
Also, HAL has placed cost of LCA on record to be over $30 million. (only aircraft)

Also cost of Rafale (french version, no modifications) is about 110 million. With modifications required for IAF, it will cross 150 million.