Know Your 'Rafale'

[AbhinavTheBrahmin]

That was really pessimistic. Well I am much of an optimist so, I think that AMCA will be there in time. Let us see what happens.

Atleast Till 2021 if not then 2023

 

[AbhinavTheBrahmin]

Rafale purchase is nothing but a political move. It was done to please France to get help with NSG and UNSC issues. These jets will not add much to India's defense. These will be outdated before they arrive in India. F-35 is already here like J-31 and AMCA is an illusion and FGFA is up in the air with both of them are at least a decade away. But then, you can argue that that is the way you do business in India. It takes ten year to make a single decision. That means India's military will remain ten years behind all other military in the world. I am sure you believe in "fate". I guess this is India's fate to pay exorbitant amount of money for decades old european weapons. Simply, as a nation you do not have the guts to buy (and risk) cutting edge weapons like USA, Russia or China. Let's be brave and face that facts about India.

AMCA WOudl BE Completed and we buyed rafale because it was giving tot and was good for the iaf

 

[Rahul Singh]

Thank god this circus is over now. Even loss of 7.2 billion euros is less torturous than this thread.

 

[StealthFlanker]

********************ANSWER ******************
1) ??? But it was always said than F35 is less stealthy than F22 (because F22 was never built to be exported ! so better studied on this).
2) Rafale has less power than F35 and is a supercruiser with some external loads when clean F35 is not => Rafale need less thrust than F35, so less IR trace.
3) F35 is beaten by a F16 with external tanks. Rafale beat F16 in all situation. It's enough.
4) F35 is anemic (see trial vs F16). Rafale accelerate just a little bit lower than EF2000 !
5) just call me back when DASS will be totally on use.
6) Rafale climb rate is as acceleration : just a little bit lower than those of EF2000 and SU30.
7) F35 gun door, when opened, induce a rolling bank on the plane ! not easy to fire with accuracy ..... and a 25mm gun has less power effect than a 30mm one.

1) Assuming F-35 is less stealth than F-22 , that doesnt mean it is not stealthy and cannot be considered VLO in X band , and you said F-35 is less stealthy but by how much ? at what frequency range ? from what direction ?.

2) what a load of nonsense , without the dynamic thrust curve of both aircraft , how can you know Rafale has less power at altitude ? , not to mention the effect of pressure recovery of intake at high speed , and as i have explained several times already , thrust isnot proportional to thermal signature. I dont want to re write everything again so iam just gonna quote myself here :

Why did i said thrust is not proportional to infrared level ? imagine it this way the Mi-26 can generate more than 560.kN while Mig-21 can merely generate 69kN of thrust , which one do you think have higher infrared signature ? , So what does that have to do with F-135 an it's infrared signature here ? well let look at the general component of a turbofan engine first shall we ?

The 2 main components that responsible for thrust are the fan and the combustor (aka the core ) . To put in layman term , the fan moves a big mass of air at low speed ( cold air ) , the core moves small mass of air at high speed ( hot air ) , to get to certain level of thrust, an engine can either has very big fan and small core ( good for TSFC ) or very big core and small fan (good for speed ) , the percentage of air that didnt pass through the core is called the bypass ratio, so now do you understand why high bypass engine are cold and the low bypass one or turbojet are hot ?

Secondly , as everyone know , jet engine are air breathing engine , what does that mean ? they need air to run , the more air the better , air density reduces along with altitude, so that why when you look at the thrust curve of engine they always reduce as the aircraft go higher. So a jet engine that can push out 190kN at sea level may be barely able to push out 10kN at 40 K feet. On the other hand, a rocket engine can literally push out the same amount of thrust regardless of altitude which is while space shuttle use rocket and not jet engine to change direction

3) We go over that nonsense way of thinking not once , not twice , but this is the forth times already : how many times do i have to post the test log for you to understand what the test is about ?, i will just quote myself again :

One factor that significantly reduced the F-35 potential in the test was the anti spin logic of FCS

Now to add to that :For your information , F-22 used to lost to T-38 in dogfight too

and Rafale lost to F-4 too

If we following your way of thinking then probably T-38 and F-4E are the most maneuver aircraft.
Btw , what make you think Rafale beat F-16 in all situation ( all altitude , all speed range ) ?

4) So what exactly is Rafale acceleration rate ? lower than Typhoon but by how much ? , what was the weapons , fuel load ?

5) Already shown alot of detection capabilities

6) Firstly acceleration rate and climb rate are not proportional .For example : F-15 accelerate better than Mig-29 but it's climb rate is far worse . Also climb rate isnot a constant value ,and you dont even know the climb rate at sea level of F-35 , let alone able to conclude which one of them climb faster and by how much .

7) you think the tiny piece of metal tiled at 3-4 degrees can roll the plane back ? and there are alot more to aircraft cannon rather than just destructive power of the shell , for example : the ballistic is an important factor, following by rate of fire.

 

[StealthFlanker]

I didn't say it's only a question of power of Radar. But mainly new kinds of radars : low frequency radar, multistatic radar.

Those radar are not without weakness , as explained before

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale purchase is nothing but a political move. It was done to please France to get help with NSG and UNSC issues. These jets will not add much to India's defense. These will be outdated before they arrive in India. F-35 is already here like J-31 and AMCA is an illusion and FGFA is up in the air with both of them are at least a decade away. But then, you can argue that that is the way you do business in India. It takes ten year to make a single decision. That means India's military will remain ten years behind all other military in the world. I am sure you believe in "fate". I guess this is India's fate to pay exorbitant amount of money for decades old european weapons. Simply, as a nation you do not have the guts to buy (and risk) cutting edge weapons like USA, Russia or China. Let's be brave and face that facts about India.

only a US citizen can write that.

Let's speak of F35 when it will have made its first real war mission. saying .... in 7/8 years?

 

[vishwaprasad]

Great addition in IAF, hope the numbers will be much higher than 36...since its already late I hope that France and India makes some arrangements like India sends some of its best pilots in France to get the training on Rafales so by the time Rafales starts arriving it would save further our time to master them, I mean if we wait till the delivery and then start on practicing it will be a further delay in mastering the jet. In fact India should also check the possibility if it can lease some 10-20 Rafales from France for training purpose till we receive our Rafales

 

[Tactical Frog]

Great addition in IAF, hope the numbers will be much higher than 36...since its already late I hope that France and India makes some arrangements like India sends some of its best pilots in France to get the training on Rafales so by the time Rafales starts arriving it would save further our time to master them, I mean if we wait till the delivery and then start on practicing it will be a further delay in mastering the jet. In fact India should also check the possibility if it can lease some 10-20 Rafales from France for training purpose till we receive our Rafales

Don't worry, the deal covers training for several pilots , who will become later instructors. They will get enough training to be operational when India receives its first batch. There is a Dassault video on Toutube ( awful music ) showing Egyptian pilots training.


Leasing some Rafale ? That would be a good idea.. and who knows what can happen with Pakistan. But very few them would be available, given French AdlA needs. Still, what would not we do to help our friends in India We did a lot to help Saddam during the long war with Iran, leasing Super Etendards with Exocet missiles.

 

[vishwaprasad]

Thanks Tactical Frog ... this is a very good news that deal covers training for some our pilots.... Yes France himself has its own priorities and we respect it...but if even 10 Rafales are avail for lease then it will be really great... Long live France-India friendship....

 

[prateikf]

Any idea why the IAF selected the Israeli helmet mounted system rather than the standard ones like Egypt ? This could have saved a lot of money .

 

[BON PLAN]

Great addition in IAF, hope the numbers will be much higher than 36...since its already late I hope that France and India makes some arrangements like India sends some of its best pilots in France to get the training on Rafales so by the time Rafales starts arriving it would save further our time to master them, I mean if we wait till the delivery and then start on practicing it will be a further delay in mastering the jet. In fact India should also check the possibility if it can lease some 10-20 Rafales from France for training purpose till we receive our Rafales

French air force lacks of Rafale !!! We could maybe lease 3 or 4, but never 10 or 20.

 

[ersakthivel]

1. IAF rafales costing the same as French airforce rafales, in fly away cost , even though IAF rafales are F3 plus standard , while french airforce rafales are of lower standards,

2. The 2 billion for IAF specific modification enables us to field indian & israeli weapons, like Python, derby, astra, future brahmos mini, plus DRDO made LGBs,because we will get weapon direction code for rafale's ASEA radar, which makes IAF rafale costly at first,

Besides navy too may opt for 40 odd rafales for its new carrier making the spend of 2 billion on india specific modification , with ASEA radar source code cost effective, surely navy doesn't have any options besides rafale for a modern fighter aircraft for its carrier fleet


ANd addition of Israeli HMDS makes IAF rafales far more potent than french rafales , which is also included in IAF specific modification cost of 2 billions

3. But over the long run using indian weapons over french result in cost savings , which Ajai shukla ignores,

4. Most of the migs , barring mig-29s are going to be retired, so it is not going to increase IAF logistics in the long run,

5. Buying 126 rafales while we are negotiating for FGFA doesn't make sense, because rafales are now designated for N weapon delivery in strategic IAF command, the same job did by now close to retirement mirage-2000. So 36 numbers make sense, because we have 40 plus sukhois modified with brahmos for the same purpose.

6. MAKE IN INDIA rafales are worthless, because french will transfer only screw driver tech.

7. Just after UPA short listed rafale as MMRCA winner an IAF committee led by Air Marshal MAtheswaran recommended scrapping of Snecma-GTRE JV for uprating kaveri jet engine, which would have made tejas mk1 A more potent for "mysterious reason" stating that "GTRE won't learn anything from Jv!!!

8. for few weeks we were seeing some reports that french has guaranteed the JV to be completed in 3 years time as part of the Modi govt's rafale purchase offset clause of 50%, In fact it was speculated that the details of this JV was the reason rafale deal is delayed

9. Mysteriously, now we don't see a word on this deal in original rafale deal!!!

10. SO french are sipping champagne & we are sipping mineral water as far as this "abandoned details of this JV". WOnder why??

11, This JV would have released tejas mk1 A from american GE engine clutches & made it a potent export option, if this Jv was concluded indirect benefit for india from rafale deal is manifold, but surprisingly it is nowhere to be seen.

12. In its place now we are seeing reports about "French importing 3 billion worth parts from india" which is not the purpose of offset clause , which is meant for TOT .

13. I frankly don't believe the marketing hype that IAF rafale can penetrate deep into highly contested chinese airspace & deliver weapons 1000 km deep like it did in libya & afgan, especially when chinese are going to field J-20 there, rafale has no way of knowing it is being targeted by J-20 & won't be able to target j-20 at all/

14.SO with no specified offset for engine JV , I think the govt has goofed up on rafale deal, falling to IAF pressure, With chinese serial producing J-20 , IAf won't gain any significant advantage with 36 rafales for the huge 8 billion plus cost.

If the engine offset is included it would have made tejas mk1A on par with F-16 block 72,which means our IAF would hv been a world class fleet even from the basic single engine fighter level, because it is tejas which is going to replace 400 odd migs, not rafales,

plus it would have provided a fall back engine option for AMCA & Aura,

15.strange are the deal makings ways of MOD, Has the french refused TOT for kaveri or is it a goof up by govt?

Even critics like Ajai shukla bark at the wrong tree regarding rafale deal's "expensive" nature, nobody is willing to write the "missing offset JV" because most of these guys support another fighter in place of rafale, which will be more useless than rafale for maturing indian mil aviation sector

 

[ersakthivel]

Thank god this circus is over now. Even loss of 7.2 billion euros is less torturous than this thread.

Without JV for kaveri jet engine, this is not even a circus!!!

 

[ersakthivel]

Another interesting quote from dassault CEO is that IAF is going to phase out mirage-2000s, so what is happening to the 40 million dollar per fighter upgrade, which is a pure rip off, if the mirages are phased out and rafale take their niche segment this deal looks a bit more rational.

 

[WolfPack86]

Dassault confident that India will place more Rafale orders in the near future
Dassault Aviation’s sale of 36 Rafale fighter jets to India will help the defence group win further multibillion contracts in Asia and the Middle East, according to its chief executive.

Éric Trappier told the Financial Times that the deal could lead to more sales to the Indian air force, this time with aircraft built in India, as well as encouraging countries such as Malaysia to sign a contract for the fighter jet.

“A deal like this really builds credibility,” he said on the phone from India, where he had on Friday signed an €8bn deal to supply 36 aircraft to the country’s air force — the culmination of four years of tense discussions.

“The confidence we have been shown by India will be seen around the world, and will really help us with other deals,” he said. The Rafale jet is in the running for sales to Malaysia and the UAE as well as Belgium and Canada.

A fourth contract would be a coup for Dassault and the entire defence industry. Thales, the French defence electronics group, and Safran, the aircraft engine maker, are suppliers to the Rafale programme, along with about 500 smaller companies.

This follows years where the Rafale was struggling on the international arena. Before a €3.5bn deal to sell 24 jets to Egypt last year, the 28-year-old aircraft — which cost more than €40bn to develop — had not won a single export order.

Two months later, Qatar agreed to buy 24 as part of a defence contract worth roughly €6bn. The 36 jets sold to India was the aircraft’s third export order. This was less than the 126 originally planned.

The “big challenge” for Dassault over the India deal is that half of the value of the contract — about €4bn — has to be made in India, said Mr Trappier. But he added that this is also an opportunity if the local operations go well.

“India is a big country and has a large need for aircraft,” he said. “If we work well together … the future could be better than supplying 36 aircraft.”

Mr Trappier said that Dassault could win a contract with Canada to replace the country’s CF-18 fighters, but said that there could be pressure to buy from the US. “If there is no political obligation, we may have a chance,” he said.

A fourth contract for the Rafale would be yet another blow to the Eurofighter Typhoon, the European combat aircraft programme that is 33 per cent owned by Britain’s BAE Systems.

People in the French defence industry say that part of the exports success is because of the efforts made by the socialist government, with particular praise directed at Jean-Yves Le Drian, defence minister, for supervising complex deals.

French defence export orders in 2015 were double those in 2014, which itself had been the best year on record. Lebanon last year took delivery of 48 MBDA anti-tank missiles, part of a $3bn contract funded by Saudi Arabia.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/D...ce-more-Rafale-orders-in-the-near-future-8336

 

[NLD]

1. IAF rafales costing the same as French airforce rafales, in fly away cost , even though IAF rafales are F3 plus standard , while french airforce rafales are of lower standards,

2. The 2 billion for IAF specific modification enables us to field indian & israeli weapons, like Python, derby, astra, future brahmos mini, plus DRDO made LGBs,because we will get weapon direction code for rafale's ASEA radar, which makes IAF rafale costly at first,

Besides navy too may opt for 40 odd rafales for its new carrier making the spend of 2 billion on india specific modification , with ASEA radar source code cost effective, surely navy doesn't have any options besides rafale for a modern fighter aircraft for its carrier fleet


ANd addition of Israeli HMDS makes IAF rafales far more potent than french rafales , which is also included in IAF specific modification cost of 2 billions

3. But over the long run using indian weapons over french result in cost savings , which Ajai shukla ignores,

4. Most of the migs , barring mig-29s are going to be retired, so it is not going to increase IAF logistics in the long run,

5. Buying 126 rafales while we are negotiating for FGFA doesn't make sense, because rafales are now designated for N weapon delivery in strategic IAF command, the same job did by now close to retirement mirage-2000. So 36 numbers make sense, because we have 40 plus sukhois modified with brahmos for the same purpose.

6. MAKE IN INDIA rafales are worthless, because french will transfer only screw driver tech.

7. Just after UPA short listed rafale as MMRCA winner an IAF committee led by Air Marshal MAtheswaran recommended scrapping of Snecma-GTRE JV for uprating kaveri jet engine, which would have made tejas mk1 A more potent for "mysterious reason" stating that "GTRE won't learn anything from Jv!!!

8. for few weeks we were seeing some reports that french has guaranteed the JV to be completed in 3 years time as part of the Modi govt's rafale purchase offset clause of 50%, In fact it was speculated that the details of this JV was the reason rafale deal is delayed

9. Mysteriously, now we don't see a word on this deal in original rafale deal!!!

10. SO french are sipping champagne & we are sipping mineral water as far as this "abandoned details of this JV". WOnder why??

11, This JV would have released tejas mk1 A from american GE engine clutches & made it a potent export option, if this Jv was concluded indirect benefit for india from rafale deal is manifold, but surprisingly it is nowhere to be seen.

12. In its place now we are seeing reports about "French importing 3 billion worth parts from india" which is not the purpose of offset clause , which is meant for TOT .

13. I frankly don't believe the marketing hype that IAF rafale can penetrate deep into highly contested chinese airspace & deliver weapons 1000 km deep like it did in libya & afgan, especially when chinese are going to field J-20 there, rafale has no way of knowing it is being targeted by J-20 & won't be able to target j-20 at all/

14.SO with no specified offset for engine JV , I think the govt has goofed up on rafale deal, falling to IAF pressure, With chinese serial producing J-20 , IAf won't gain any significant advantage with 36 rafales for the huge 8 billion plus cost.

If the engine offset is included it would have made tejas mk1A on par with F-16 block 72,which means our IAF would hv been a world class fleet even from the basic single engine fighter level, because it is tejas which is going to replace 400 odd migs, not rafales,

plus it would have provided a fall back engine option for AMCA & Aura,

15.strange are the deal makings ways of MOD, Has the french refused TOT for kaveri or is it a goof up by govt?

Even critics like Ajai shukla bark at the wrong tree regarding rafale deal's "expensive" nature, nobody is willing to write the "missing offset JV" because most of these guys support another fighter in place of rafale, which will be more useless than rafale for maturing indian mil aviation sector

Pls correct me if i am wrong… If a jv has to be signed then i believe the complete tecnology of the kaveri engine is to be shared with them. I think their is something(might be technology or something else) because of which gtre/GOI/ someone else is not interested in sharing it with French. Hence i believe they are not going for jv.

 

[Bangalibaba]

Without JV for kaveri jet engine, this is not even a circus!!!

Garu, read somewhere that within $3Bn offset, there'd be $1Bn investment for Kaveri-Snecma JV and uprated Kaveri will be ~90KN thrust range by 2020-21 period and will be flightworthy, is this not happening?
My 2 cents understanding,IN is indeed interested in Rafale M and probably wants to field in Vishal and even in Vikrant along with NLCA, on the same lines on CDG Carrier, which boasts Rafale M as well Super Etendard. So I think, we may see more Rafale coming depending on Tejas Mk1A and MkII developments for IAF and NLCA for IN.

 

[WolfPack86]

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian and India Defence Minister Manohar Parikkar Sign Rafale Fighter Jet deal on 23rd September 2016

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale Fighter Jet

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale Fighter Jet