Know Your 'Rafale'

[Scarface]

Talk of Chinese secrecy is just horse shit, a stupid propaganda. I have told you there is nothing original that China has or there is nothing that they are hiding that no one has. Name one Chinese weapon system that is world class. The onus is on you.



J-20 is not operational and a genuine R&D product will have a good long incubation period before it becomes operational. Chinese has survived this century on hoax and lies. This is just another flying lie which will of course pose a challenge but to declare it as winner is just superfluous if not moronic.



I stand correct. Chit Chat of that kind where we do not understand the context in which an argument has been made is just waste of time.

I see no visible changes made in doctrine and posturing of P-4 nation and India in a reaction to J-20. They do not give half the fuck about J-20, period.

Of course they will sound alarmist as they are trained not to underestimate the threat. They are trained to plan ahead. They even consider a knife carried by infantry as a lethal entity. Then they exaggerate enemy capabilities to justify their spending. (just adding few more contexts)



Not at all I simply called you out to prove how J-20 will tackle Rafale but you started shifting the goal post to first ambiguity then to its 4th gen and impending 5th gen capabilities which even subjects in your source doesn't explicitly believe in, period.

Talk of Chinese secrecy is a reality,I don't have to prove that Chinese weapons are "world class", because I never made the claim


No one claimed J-20 is operational once again,it was claimed by someone else that it was under development,which wasn't true, it is in production,don't know how many times I'll have to say this.

The context here is impossible to miss,It is about the threat perception of the J-20,that is what the whole interview is about,this isn't some excerpt from a random debate where the J-20 suddenly came up,it is a Q&A between USNI and USAF pilots,lack of context isn't an issue here.

The funding argument doesn't hold here because this isn't a report that's being sent to the defence department,it's an interview between a journo and a pilot.


I see visible changes in nations affected by this,not P-4,UK is buying F-35B,Japan is buying F-35,South Korea is buying F-35,Australia is buying F-35s.

It's not a co-incidence that countries under threat from China and have disputes with China are going for F-35s while they were offered 4th gen alternatives.

India slow as our policy making is has launched a study on the J-20 as early as 2010,what became of it , I don't know

They aren't sounding alarmist at all,they are sounding concerned.

I already proved the J-20 can tackle Rafale with ease from my source which is a Q&A with a USAF pilot
It clearly says the J-20 can outmatch current US 4th gen assets,which the Rafale doesn't surpass.

I never shifted any goal posts,the goal post is still the same,J-20 can outmatch the Rafale,the proof is still there.

The "ambiguity" was in regards with you saying that you hadn't seen anything that proves J-20 can tackle Rafale,to which I said that you never will because the Chinese will never show their hand.

If the subjects in my source didn't believe in J-20s capabilities then they wouldn't have claimed it outmatches their 4th gen aircraft and can match the F-22/F-35 in the future.

The doubts regarding those capabilities can be attributed to operational status,even the F-35 right now doesn't have all the capabilities it was planned to have,it is in initial operational capability,the bare minimum required be operational in the air force.

J-20 hasn't even reached that stage yet.

You are free to sidestep the real content from my source which are the two quotes which are all you need to come to the conclusion that the Rafale is not going to be able to match the J-20 and believe what you want,but I won't be letting it go.

From this point on , any demands for proof about how the J-20 will be a problem for Rafale from my side, I will just keep bringing those quotes up.

 

[scatterStorm]

We do have REVATHI based on 3D-CAR for Navy whereas for AF it goes by the name of ROHINI perhaps.

I suppose than we have such piece of equipment, but That's no way near to what USAF uses in it's red flag exercises, called Red Flag measurement and debriefing system (RFMDS) to feed data from it's radars and provide a live 3d picture of the entire air theater, I saw it in the red flag documentary and it's just cutting edge! IAF would greatly improve with such systems I think.

 

[BON PLAN]

That's one very expensive 4th gen platform (that's already after discount!):

(fly-away cost)
1. Frame cost for 36 Rafales @ €3.3 billion
2. India specific changes @ €1.7 billion

The only consolation for the IAF is that at least it will get 36 more capable fighters (that what it currently have) in the next 5 years (again, a long delivery period for only 36 jets).

1.7 €billion to adapt Rafale to India..... You can imagine this amount is not for just 36 planes. And all the others will come cheaper, as fixed cost already paid with the first batch.

 

[republic_roi97]

I am happy for one, because now we are gonna get a potent machine with all the goodies. So please cheer up.

 

[BON PLAN]

In fact at €5 billion cost for 36 jets, it is already more expensive than the more capable, a generation ahead 5th gen F-35A.

the "promise" F35 was a dream : super cruiser, affordable, stealthy, able to catch heavy internal loads, maneuvrable as a F16, arriving in squad in 2008

The real F35 is : not super cruiser, it doesn't cost the 40$ millions intended, stealth is a quality vanishing with all new radar, the loads had been cut, it is far from a F16 in the air, we are in 2016 and not really operationnal...

I think we will not seen a F35 in a real war theatre until 5 years at least.

PS : Generation is a marketing term from LM. 5th gen for LM is a plane : stealthier, supercruiser, with data fusion. F35 is not a 5th gen according to LM definition.... so sad.

 

[BON PLAN]

Sir, this is not another MMRCA.

36 birds for SFC.

End of story.

SFC ? what's that ?

 

[scatterStorm]

Talk of Chinese secrecy is a reality,I don't have to prove that Chinese weapons are "world class", because I never made the claim


No one claimed J-20 is operational once again,it was claimed by someone else that it was under development,which wasn't true, it is in production,don't know how many times I'll have to say this.

The context here is impossible to miss,It is about the threat perception of the J-20,that is what the whole interview is about,this isn't some excerpt from a random debate where the J-20 suddenly came up,it is a Q&A between USNI and USAF pilots,lack of context isn't an issue here.

The funding argument doesn't hold here because this isn't a report that's being sent to the defence department,it's an interview between a journo and a pilot.


I see visible changes in nations affected by this,not P-4,UK is buying F-35B,Japan is buying F-35,South Korea is buying F-35,Australia is buying F-35s.

It's not a co-incidence that countries under threat from China and have disputes with China are going for F-35s while they were offered 4th gen alternatives.

India slow as our policy making is has launched a study on the J-20 as early as 2010,what became of it , I don't know

They aren't sounding alarmist at all,they are sounding concerned.

I already proved the J-20 can tackle Rafale with ease from my source which is a Q&A with a USAF pilot
It clearly says the J-20 can outmatch current US 4th gen assets,which the Rafale doesn't surpass.

I never shifted any goal posts,the goal post is still the same,J-20 can outmatch the Rafale,the proof is still there.

The "ambiguity" was in regards with you saying that you hadn't seen anything that proves J-20 can tackle Rafale,to which I said that you never will because the Chinese will never show their hand.

If the subjects in my source didn't believe in J-20s capabilities then they wouldn't have claimed it outmatches their 4th gen aircraft and can match the F-22/F-35 in the future.

The doubts regarding those capabilities can be attributed to operational status,even the F-35 right now doesn't have all the capabilities it was planned to have,it is in initial operational capability,the bare minimum required be operational in the air force.

J-20 hasn't even reached that stage yet.

You are free to sidestep the real content from my source which are the two quotes which are all you need to come to the conclusion that the Rafale is not going to be able to match the J-20 and believe what you want,but I won't be letting it go.

From this point on , any demands for proof about how the J-20 will be a problem for Rafale from my side, I will just keep bringing those quotes up.

J20's sure can outmatch Rafale as it was meant as a 5th gen fighter jet, which is subjective IMO, but it doesn't have that sig.fg amount of VLO characteristics. USAF pilot's sometimes do exaggerate stuff to push there agenda at pentagon which is "spend more tax-payers money to make more expensive stuff". I am not a pilot but I'll ask my source that if J20 is a threat to Indian Defense Assets especially our Air assets, although I think J20 is not a sig.fig threat, it has a very big air-frame much bigger than T50, lot's of air disturbance and very hot engines, enough for a Meteor BVR AAM to push it at back foot for an evasive maneuver, part of the very reason IAF wanted to purchase it on the first place, although I could be wrong as Chinese hackers are the real shit these days, no wonder they have the F22 and F35 data stolen.

 

[Akshay_Fenix]

SFC ? what's that ?

Strategic Command Force. Nuke delivery

 

[sasum]

Strategic Command Force. Nuke delivery

Nuke delivery capability is not a big factor. Mirage 2000, Jaguar, all 3rd gen planes can be jury-rigged to deliver nukes. Anyway, missile is the safest vehicle for delivering nukes.
My guess is when the 1st Rafale will land in India around 2020, prototype of AMCA will be ready. FGFA, scheduled for induction in 2018 will render Rafale obsolete. The fighter plane scenario will undergo a sea-change in 2018 with introduction of F-35, J-20 etc.

 

[busesaway]

I was reading the wikipedia page for the tender, and it mentioned that Airbus had offered India a chance to build the aircraft on Indian soil by becoming a member of the Eurofighter consortium.

Why didn't India take the oppurtunity? India could have either created a government subsidary or partenered with an indigenous private company.

The Dassault Rafale can carry nukes, while the Eurofighter Typhoon can't. But I'm unsure if this is due to weight issues (Rafale can carry more weight), or due to compatability issues (US-type nukes that are used in Europe require special controls) that India doesn't need to worry about.

If the Eurofighter Typhoon carries nukes, then the Dassault Rafale should be dropped.

But I would also add, that since I'm supporting India's acquisiton of the aircraft carrier from Russia, a better deal might be to buy Russian planes tailor-made for the supercarrier, and leave these planes for other uses.
Sukhoi Su-30MKI or Mikoyan MiG-35 (RUS) can be left for a later order with the aircraft carrier.

So the order should be split between NATO Typhoon, Chinese Falcon Hawk, and Japanese Shinshin. An Indian company should built the planes in India, and all planes should be able to take-off from an aircraft carrier and be able to carry nukes.

Russian planes should be bought as part of a different procurment deal. HAL FGFA will be ready by that time. And I personally think that the air force should be merged into the naval force.

 

[ezsasa]

I was reading the wikipedia page for the tender, and it mentioned that Airbus had offered India a chance to build the aircraft on Indian soil by becoming a member of the Eurofighter consortium.

Why didn't India take the oppurtunity? India could have either created a government subsidary or partenered with an indigenous private company.

The Dassault Rafale can carry nukes, while the Eurofighter Typhoon can't. But I'm unsure if this is due to weight issues (Rafale can carry more weight), or due to compatability issues (US-type nukes that are used in Europe require special controls) that India doesn't need to worry about.

If the Eurofighter Typhoon carries nukes, then the Dassault Rafale should be dropped.

But I would also add, that since I'm supporting India's acquisiton of the aircraft carrier from Russia, a better deal might be to buy Russian planes tailor-made for the supercarrier, and leave these planes for other uses.
Sukhoi Su-30MKI or Mikoyan MiG-35 (RUS) can be left for a later order with the aircraft carrier.

So the order should be split between NATO Typhoon, Chinese Falcon Hawk, and Japanese Shinshin. An Indian company should built the planes in India, and all planes should be able to take-off from an aircraft carrier and be able to carry nukes.

Russian planes should be bought as part of a different procurment deal. HAL FGFA will be ready by that time. And I personally think that the air force should be merged into the naval force.

Even if we assume eurofighter was selected, the deal would have been delayed or cancelled by defence ministry because of the many of Euro fighters in Europe were grounded in 2014 because of cracks in the airframe. I doubt we would go ahead with the deal with known problems.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...hter-deliveries-over-manufacturing-fault.html

 

[Bangalibaba]

SFC ? what's that ?

Strategic Forces Command.Nuke delivery role post Mirage 2000, due to retire in 2030s.

 

[hit&run]

Talk of Chinese secrecy is a reality,I don't have to prove that Chinese weapons are "world class", because I never made the claim

Talk of Chinese secrecy is bulls shit.

You steal and copy something from someone and then it becomes your secret, how this is possible? It was you who eulogized Chinese way of doing things and secrecy. I told you there is nothing that should be a secret about Chinese MIC or any of the product they have produced so far including J-20. You should stop talking like a Chinese fan boy.

No one claimed J-20 is operational once again,it was claimed by someone else that it was under development,which wasn't true, it is in production,don't know how many times I'll have to say this.

Is it operational or not tell me ? Has it got operation clearance. Is this jet flaying sorties based on assigned mission ? If its not operational how on earth you can claim it to be a winner against Rafale ?

As far as your play of word 'production' is concern then Chinese can produce as many canopies they can like their ghost cities waiting for citizens and former for an engine.

The context here is impossible to miss,It is about the threat perception of the J-20,that is what the whole interview is about,this isn't some excerpt from a random debate where the J-20 suddenly came up,it is a Q&A between USNI and USAF pilots,lack of context isn't an issue here.

I never said the context is missing I only said the context could be anything in that chit chat. A chit chat can not be an academic discussion based on facts. Even if you are deliberating on threat perception you need facts. Analyzing threat is a science and it starts with framing of a question only then one can offer a hypothesis if facts are absent. Then testing the hypothesis comes into play which need this thing to be flying for mission than rusting along kerb side of Chinese airbases. Your source has non of it that is why it is just a chit chat.

Rafale other hand is kicking ass every where including participating multy-nation excercies. There is no comparison whatsoever.

The funding argument doesn't hold here because this isn't a report that's being sent to the defence department,it's an interview between a journo and a pilot.

Why not, the pilot is part of the system he knows all the funding talk and they constantly keep justifying their job by exaggerating challenges. Nothing wrong in this.

I see visible changes in nations affected by this,not P-4,UK is buying F-35B,Japan is buying F-35,South Korea is buying F-35,Australia is buying F-35s.

Final design configuration of J-20 was frozen in 2008 after CAC won PLAAF competition followed by 2009 USA accusation of China compromising F-35 design. Its first flight was in 2011.

On the other hand F-35 as JSF was contemplated in 1996 and contract was awarded to LM in 2001. Nations who pledged/funded money and development partner in this project are UK, Italy, Australia, Canada, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, and Turkey.

What you think why these nations were funding 163 Billion (and counting) project. Eventually to buy it? Isn't it?

Your argument that they are reacting to development of J-20 do not pass the chronology test. Fail.

They aren't sounding alarmist at all,they are sounding concerned.

One and the same thing one can be concerned and people can read it being alarmist.

I already proved the J-20 can tackle Rafale with ease from my source which is a Q&A with a USAF pilot
It clearly says the J-20 can outmatch current US 4th gen assets,which the Rafale doesn't surpass.

Your source never talked about Rafale vs J-20. It is just your figment of imagination.

I never shifted any goal posts,the goal post is still the same,J-20 can outmatch the Rafale,the proof is still there.

And the proof is a Chinese secret hidden some where under the great wall of China. Or your source where an American pilot who may not have the credentials to analyse a plane showing his concern which you took it as gospel truth ?

From this point on , any demands for proof about how the J-20 will be a problem for Rafale from my side, I will just keep bringing those quotes up.

Sure, J-20 is a problem for Rafale. I would say even birds flying over Tibet plateau are problem for Rafale.

 

[porky_kicker]

i am not a aviation expert or something but this much i know a j20 or su 35 or any plane taking off from airfields in Tibet will always be handicapped in terms of significantly reduced payloads due to the rarefied air prevalent at those altitudes while fighters taking off from bases in India in the northern and eastern sector wont have any such problems as they can take off with the max payload for missions in Tibet.

 

[BON PLAN]

Nuke delivery capability is not a big factor. Mirage 2000, Jaguar, all 3rd gen planes can be jury-rigged to deliver nukes. Anyway, missile is the safest vehicle for delivering nukes.
My guess is when the 1st Rafale will land in India around 2020, prototype of AMCA will be ready. FGFA, scheduled for induction in 2018 will render Rafale obsolete. The fighter plane scenario will undergo a sea-change in 2018 with introduction of F-35, J-20 etc.

Would you like to take a bet on FGFA induction? 2018? Add 5 years at least !

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Rafale on par with F-35, a generation ahead of F-16 jets: Eric Trappier


The Rafale deal has been long in the making, with the NDA govt scrapping the original 2007 project and going for direct purchase of 36 Rafales. Dassault CEO Eric Trappier talked to TOI . Excerpts:

What does Rafale bring to India ?

The number one reason for the success (in the deal going through) is its capabilities. The aircraft’s performance was evaluated by the skilled IAF in different conditions here (during the MMRCA project evaluation).It has the capability to do everything. It’s a good air-to-air combat aircraft, a strike aircraft, a reconnaisance and intelligence aircraft. It is good for all types of missions designed for the French forces, including from aircraft carriers. This was totally in line with what IAF wanted.

You said the negotiations were tough. What are the advantages for India on the price front, or on the technology front?

The negotiations were really tough on the price. I will not say how much as that is part of the discussion between the two governments. This is an inter-government deal.As far as 50% offsets… they (India) have been able to get more from us. I feel this happened because of the confidence in the long partnership between India and France, between IAF and Dassault. India is proud about the first (Dassault) fighters it acquired in 1953 and later, the Mirage-2000s. When you are speaking defence, you don’t want to have just a good deal. You want a good plane. A good fighter, because this part of the world might sometimes be dangerous. You don’t deal with security lightly .

Is there any reference to the Rafale being nuclear capable?

It is totally in line with the French definition and more than that, we have been developing specifications that were required by the IAF. But basically it is the same system as for France.

And the French Rafales are nuclear capable?

That is something specific to France. There have been questions on the high costs. It is said India can buy three Russian Sukhois for one Rafale. Yes, maybe Rafale is more expensive. But those who know about fighters also know that Rafale is much more capable than a Sukhoi… in terms of survivability and all combat roles. The Russian aircraft are good, no doubt.But when your air force will have the Rafale, they will be happy to have it in their inventory, just like the Mirage-2000s which are the backbone of IAF. Rafale is more a competitor for the F-35. We are a generation ahead of the F 16.

How did the negotiations change with the current government taking office since the MMRCA project was deadlocked?

I think they (Modi government) took a decision to reduce the number of aircraft but go ahead with the deal. We want fighters to be delivered, you need a CCO (contract change order). It is this government that decided. They signed the deal. They made this deal a reality.

Do you think India will go in for more orders?

We will work on it. As a manufacturer I will like to sell more. But I am satisfied with this contract. We will work with our Indian colleagues to develop the local industry here.

What does this deal mean for the India-France strategic partnership?

It is between the governments. A strategic partnership is more than an aircraft deal. I can only comment on the aircraft. The partnership is at a political level, it is more than good, we are real partners.

What about the 50 per cent offsets condition… which are the areas that can be developed?

India is already a leading country in software. We would like to take advantage of this. It is time to develop equipment. It can be a success story. Dassault is at the top in digital processes. This is a must to address the worldwide market. There are fears about India-France defence projects after the Scorpene data leak. I am sure the leak is being investigated. About Dassault, I will say security is a very serious matter. We have protected ourselves but zero risk does not exist

idrw.org . Read more at India No 1 Defence News Website , Kindly don't paste our work in other websites http://idrw.org/rafale-par-f-35-generation-ahead-f-16-jets-eric-trappier/ .

 

[StealthFlanker]

stealth is a quality vanishing with all new radar, the loads had been cut,

Nope it is a common misconception that stealth technology is short live and as radar get more powerful , soon , they will be able to out range weapon engagement envelop , thus renders all money spend on RCS reduction awaste. This impression is inaccurate because any technology that can increase a radar peak power or gain will also benefit a jammers in the same ways. And stealth have a synergy relationship with jamming. The smaller your RCS , the less power you will be needed for your jammer and the less the burn through distance will be.

it is far from a F16 in the air,

Really ? , how ? , its STR performance is similar to an F-16 with DI = 50 and it's AoA limit is higher , which mean much higher CLmax and as a result better ITR

Ffs , not this nonsense chart again
1) how exactly is the F-35 not VLO in X band ????
2) why is the Rafale considered stealthy in infrared while F-35 isnt despite the fact that F-135 is a high bypass engine ?
3) Subsonic-transonic-supersonic agility : this have been repeated over and over , but based on exactly what that you concluded Rafale have better agility in all these area ? do you have their respective flight manual or do you base that on the nonsense wingloading comparison without knowing CL value ?, as a matter of fact , you still unable to come up with a video of Rafale turning quicker than F-35 , despite always claiming such superior agility
4) Acceleration : again what exactly is acceleration rate of Rafale ?
5) cockpit visibility : may be you forgot DAS
6) climb rate : how can you deduce that climb rate of Rafale is superior without knowing the climb rate chart of either aircraft ???
7) gun : how exactly is F-35 gun inferior to Rafale gun ?

 

[Scarface]

Talk of Chinese secrecy is bulls shit.

You steal and copy something from someone and then it becomes your secret, how this is possible? It was you who eulogized Chinese way of doing things and secrecy. I told you there is nothing that should be a secret about Chinese MIC or any of the product they have produced so far including J-20. You should stop talking like a Chinese fan boy.



Is it operational or not tell me ? Has it got operation clearance. Is this jet flaying sorties based on assigned mission ? If its not operational how on earth you can claim it to be a winner against Rafale ?

As far as your play of word 'production' is concern then Chinese can produce as many canopies they can like their ghost cities waiting for citizens and former for an engine.



I never said the context is missing I only said the context could be anything in that chit chat. A chit chat can not be an academic discussion based on facts. Even if you are deliberating on threat perception you need facts. Analyzing threat is a science and it starts with framing of a question only then one can offer a hypothesis if facts are absent. Then testing the hypothesis comes into play which need this thing to be flying for mission than rusting along kerb side of Chinese airbases. Your source has non of it that is why it is just a chit chat.

Rafale other hand is kicking ass every where including participating multy-nation excercies. There is no comparison whatsoever.



Why not, the pilot is part of the system he knows all the funding talk and they constantly keep justifying their job by exaggerating challenges. Nothing wrong in this.



Final design configuration of J-20 was frozen in 2008 after CAC won PLAAF competition followed by 2009 USA accusation of China compromising F-35 design. Its first flight was in 2011.

On the other hand F-35 as JSF was contemplated in 1996 and contract was awarded to LM in 2001. Nations who pledged/funded money and development partner in this project are UK, Italy, Australia, Canada, Norway, Denmark, Netherlands, and Turkey.

What you think why these nations were funding 163 Billion (and counting) project. Eventually to buy it? Isn't it?

Your argument that they are reacting to development of J-20 do not pass the chronology test. Fail.



One and the same thing one can be concerned and people can read it being alarmist.



Your source never talked about Rafale vs J-20. It is just your figment of imagination.



And the proof is a Chinese secret hidden some where under the great wall of China. Or your source where an American pilot who may not have the credentials to analyse a plane showing his concern which you took it as gospel truth ?



Sure, J-20 is a problem for Rafale. I would say even birds flying over Tibet plateau are problem for Rafale.

Talk of Chinese secrecy isn't hot air,this is evident from the lack information available about Chinese defence systems in public domain as compared to Western and Russian counter parts,what information is available is from other countries who have acquired information on it,the quality and capabilities of the system is irrelevant to the Chinese,they find it better to keep things secret,I am not talking like a 50 center,just stating reality.


The context isn't anything other than the J-20 and it's threat perception,that is the topic of the entire Q&A,the USAF pilots are well informed on threats and future threats and are familiarized with 5th gen capabilities,if you are proposing the pilot is spewing hot air and isn't speaking from an informed perspective then I'd rather not address this point.

2 of the 4 countries I mentioned in my previous post had no stake in the F-35 development,namely Japan and SK both being under threat from China,so maybe my argument doesn't apply to the UK and Australia but it does apply to Japan and SK
Another case of your cherrypicking.

Also Singapore(another country threatened by China) had also ordered 12 F-35Bs , they've put the purchase on hold since then but it's still on the table.

Alarmism and concern are two very different things,if you can't differentiate between the two then you have your perception to blame

Pilots may be a factor in fund haggling if they are voicing concerns directly to the defence department or parliament

Talking to a journalist doesn't do anything for funding

My source says the J-20 will be able to outmatch US 4th gen assets , which is the same yardstick for Rafale.

Yes,my source is a USAF pilot who is familiar with the threats which face him in the future and also has experience with 5th gen aircraft.

J-20 is indeed a big threat to Rafale,you can continue to believe whatever you like.

 

[sayareakd]

Good news, now let Pakistanis buy some other fighter and try to compete with us, in the process bankrupting their country.

 

[Pandora]

Good news, now let Pakistanis buy some other fighter and try to compete with us, in the process bankrupting their country.

What ia the use of it? When the pilots going to be daal chawal wale with person at helm is jumlebaaj..