Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

I might be wrong in these number projection ,

It's your speciality !

 

[sasum]

Rafale deal at final clearance level, may get go ahead soon
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Sep 08, 2016, 06.31 AM IST

NEW DELHI: It's going to be a big test for Indo-French relations as the Rafale fighter jet deal has reached the final clearance level after protracted negotiations. The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India.

Sources told ET the deal for 36 fighter aircraft could be cleared as early as the next meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), with the defence ministry completing all formalities and negotiations with the French side.

A decision on the deal is critical for France that has suffered a setback with the leak of sensitive documents of the Scorpene submarine project, currently being executed in Mumbai.

Also, French firms have come under the scanner for donations to an NGO operated by a Delhi-based consultant. The fighter jet deal, which was first announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Paris trip in April 2015, has been stuck for over a year on pricing and offset issues. The final terms of contract are currently being vetted by the Prime Minister's Office (PMO).

Sources said the issues raised by the PMO, after a scrutiny of documents, have been clarified by the defence ministry. "Unless there are any unforeseen complications, the jet fighter contract should happen soon. The price has been substantially lowered after several rounds of tough negotiations," an official aware of the developments told ET.

As part of the deal, France will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal in the domestic defence and aviation sectors as an offset clause. France has offered 16 critical technologies to India as part of the deal.

These technologies, which would be valued as part of the offset package, would be shared with the Defence Research and Development Organisation. The French side has also expressed its willingness to share technology and invest 1-billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, Kaveri. The plan is to develop an upgraded gas turbine to power indigenous Tejas fighters by 2020.

The French side will also assist Indian private industry in setting up a global supply chain as part of the offset plan. Among other projects, French firm Dassault is likely to set up a line in India with a private partner to manufacture major structural parts for its Falcon executive jet aircraft.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-ahead-soon/articleshow/54158710.cms?from=mdr

It is not a report, but an essay by a blogger. Has no basis and ET doesn't stand by it. If I am not mistaken, this same Manu Pubby is a member on this Forum.
A decision on Rafale will not be taken anytime soon, given the tight finances in hand now that Govt has started disbursing enhanced Salary & Pension to its employees based on 7th CPC recommendation. Moreover acquisition of 36 Rafales doesn't enjoy high priority. India has powerful enemies across borders. 36 Rafales won't make any difference in case of full-scale war. In any case only 50% is expected to be serviceable at any given time. On the contrary, they will drain out country's meagre resources...in buying, maintenance, spares, training etc.

 

[Jagdish58]

DREAMER, YOU KNOW YOU ARE A DREAMER ? (Supertramp)

LCA mk2 with Eurojet ?

Are you working in MOD?? are you aware ADA is roping in Eurojet for AMCA??

Forum should be banned for infant

 

[BON PLAN]

It is not a report, but an essay by a blogger. Has no basis and ET doesn't stand by it. If I am not mistaken, this same Manu Pubby is a member on this Forum.
A decision on Rafale will not be taken anytime soon, given the tight finances in hand now that Govt has started disbursing enhanced Salary & Pension to its employees based on 7th CPC recommendation. Moreover acquisition of 36 Rafales doesn't enjoy high priority. India has powerful enemies across borders. 36 Rafales won't make any difference in case of full-scale war. In any case only 50% is expected to be serviceable at any given time. On the contrary, they will drain out country's meagre resources...in buying, maintenance, spares, training etc.

- 36 Rafale may be enough if you use them for deterrence....
- 36 is a beginning. Absolutely impossible, with the Mirage 2000 experience (too few plane ordered, and when some more needed after years, the line was stopped !), that there will not some others batchs after (made in india or not).
- Serviceability of Rafale is higher, if you have the proper spares stock. It seems a target of 80% or 90% is in the proposed contract for 36. Theses 80-90% may explain the total price, because you need immediatly to have the proper level of spares.

 

[BON PLAN]

Are you working in MOD?? are you aware ADA is roping in Eurojet for AMCA??

Forum should be banned for infant

AMCA is one thing.

You were speaking of LCA.... forget to take your medicine Kid ?

 

[Jagdish58]

It's your speciality !

Thanks for compliment , Smarty

By the way my suggestion was to some one with sense to debate not for nonsense

 

[Jagdish58]

AMCA is one thing.

You were speaking of LCA.... forget to take your medicine Kid ?

Possibility of same power plant making way to LCA mk2. Let me stress again Mk2 , to understand that you need brain old man ,sorry you lack it all you can do is troll

 

[BON PLAN]

Thanks for compliment , Smarty

By the way my suggestion was to some one with sense to debate not for nonsense

Have a nice day.

 

[Jagdish58]

- 36 Rafale may be enough if you use them for deterrence....
- 36 is a beginning. Absolutely impossible, with the Mirage 2000 experience (too few plane ordered, and when some more needed after years, the line was stopped !), that there will not some others batchs after (made in india or not).
- Serviceability of Rafale is higher, if you have the proper spares stock. It seems a target of 80% or 90% is in the proposed contract for 36. Theses 80-90% may explain the total price, because you need immediatly to have the proper level of spares.

36 rafales will be shot down like mosquito lol as the Russian envoy quoted

you can do chest thumping by bombing a country like Libya without proper SAM and electronic warfare cover, please go on lol

 

[rkhanna]

Below is from TejasMRCA page:

https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/

Okay, so let's clear some misconceptions regarding the Rafale deal

1. Offsets: Total 50% of the deal and ("surprise") ToT

Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation research and development (R&D) programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale.

Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics,

2. Advanced weaponry

IAF wants and includes Mica air-to-air missile, Scalp cruise missile and Meteor beyond-visual-range missile and precision-guided munitions.

3. More payload

An IAF source said India-specific Rafale aircraft will be able to carry 10 tons of weaponry. The current capacity is 9.5 tons so this could mean improved M-88 engines.

4. Faster delivery

The first Rafale is expected to be delivered within 20 months of signing the G2G agreement. This is only possible if the jets currently under assembly and marked for Armee De L'air are re-routed for India.

5. Deployment

Out of the 36 aircraft,18 will be deployed at Ambala air base bordering Pakistan and another 18 will be deployed at an air base in the eastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh, bordering China.

6. More Rafales?

There is a long-term requirement of about 10 squadrons of Rafale aircraft under MMRCA

There are many who think that the $8.8 Billion is far too expensive for 36 Rafale jets. Let's take a look shall we?

~ The fly away cost for a single Rafale airframe is $85 Million (according to official french documents)
So for 36 Rafales = 36 x 85 = $3.06 Billion

~ IAF is getting two types of air to air missiles as well as two types of air to ground missiles. So the weapons package per Rafale costs around $25 million (average) = 36 x 25 = $900 Million

~ Setting up of two bases and maintenance depots costs $1.2 Billion

~ The deal said that it would cover 10 years of maintenance and spares. The total LCC is calculated for 40 years and it comes to around 2.5 times the price of airframes (average).
Hence, for 10 years = 2.5 x 3.06 / 4 = $1.92 Billion ($53.4 Million per Rafale)

~ So far, the total adds upto $7.08 Billion.
The remaining 8.8 - 7.08 = $1.72 Billion is for ToT and covers the 50% offsets (that means, 8.8 / 2 = $4.4 Billion will be re-invested back in India)

Quoting $245 Million/ Rafale is just plain stupid. What people don't understand is that if India goes for remaining 90 Rafales for MMRCA, we'll have to pay only for the airframes, weapon and maintenance, since the two bases being set-up can handle three squadrons each without major expenditure.

That is 90 * ( 85 + 25 + 53.4 ) = $14.7 Billion excluding another $500 Million for upgradation of the bases. (again with 50% offsets)

So the total cost for 126 Rafales will be $24 Billion (pretty close to the $20 Billion quoted in the original MMRCA deal adjusting for inflation and ToT)

(Note - The figures are estimates and only provided to give you an idea as to the real cost break-up structure. The cost for 90 remaining jets will increase due to the 'Make in India' initiative for setting up assembly line. But the re-investment will compensate most of the additional cost)

#Warwolf

**Kindly share this post so that more people can be cleared of their misconception as to why this is a good deal, instead of believing what the 'paid media' has been doing till now to promote other jets**
— with Arun Ben Varghese.

 

[WolfPack86]

What a single Rafale cost 85 million dollar?

 

[WolfPack86]

Confirmed: Indian negotiations for 36 #Rafale fighters complete. Deal up for approval by @PMOIndia & then Cabinet.
https://twitter.com/livefist?lang=en

 

[WolfPack86]

Confirmed: Indian negotiations for 36 #Rafale fighters complete. Deal up for approval by @PMOIndia & then Cabinet.

https://twitter.com/livefist?lang=en

 

[Zebra]

..............................
...........................................
~ The fly away cost for a single Rafale airframe is $85 Million (according to official french documents)
So for 36 Rafales = 36 x 85 = $3.06 Billion.....................

Please guide me about ..............

difference in-between fly away cost and airframe cost.

And thanks in advance.

 

[sasum]

Ha ha ha....
Chandukhana ........................

 

[WolfPack86]

99% done
Indian negotiations for 36 Rafale omnirole fighters complete. Deal has been approved by the Prime Minister's Office. It will most probably be signed and concluded in the upcoming Cabinet Committee for Security's (CCS) meeting
https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/photos?ref=page_internal

 

[sorcerer]

%

99% done
Indian negotiations for 36 Rafale omnirole fighters complete. Deal has been approved by the Prime Minister's Office. It will most probably be signed and concluded in the upcoming Cabinet Committee for Security's (CCS) meeting
https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/photos?ref=page_internal

99% Done..and Waiting.............................
Looks like installing something which is made by mycrosoft...

 

[Scarface]

Below is from TejasMRCA page:

https://www.facebook.com/TejasMrca/

Okay, so let's clear some misconceptions regarding the Rafale deal

1. Offsets: Total 50% of the deal and ("surprise") ToT

Thirty percent offsets will be embarked for future military aviation research and development (R&D) programs and the remaining 20 percent will be with Indian [defense] industries making components for Rafale.

Safran and Thales will join Dassault in providing state-of-the-art technologies in stealth, radar, thrust vectoring for missiles, and materials for electronics and micro-electronics,

2. Advanced weaponry

IAF wants and includes Mica air-to-air missile, Scalp cruise missile and Meteor beyond-visual-range missile and precision-guided munitions.

3. More payload

An IAF source said India-specific Rafale aircraft will be able to carry 10 tons of weaponry. The current capacity is 9.5 tons so this could mean improved M-88 engines.

4. Faster delivery

The first Rafale is expected to be delivered within 20 months of signing the G2G agreement. This is only possible if the jets currently under assembly and marked for Armee De L'air are re-routed for India.

5. Deployment

Out of the 36 aircraft,18 will be deployed at Ambala air base bordering Pakistan and another 18 will be deployed at an air base in the eastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh, bordering China.

6. More Rafales?

There is a long-term requirement of about 10 squadrons of Rafale aircraft under MMRCA

There are many who think that the $8.8 Billion is far too expensive for 36 Rafale jets. Let's take a look shall we?

~ The fly away cost for a single Rafale airframe is $85 Million (according to known official french documents)
So for 36 Rafales = 36 x 85 = $3.06 Billion

~ IAF is getting two types of air to air missiles as well as two types of air to ground missiles. So the weapons package per Rafale costs around $25 million (average) = 36 x 25 = $900 Million

~ Setting up of two bases and maintenance depots costs $1.2 Billion

~ The deal said that it would cover 10 years of maintenance and spares. The total LCC is calculated for 40 years and it comes to around 2.5 times the price of airframes (average).
Hence, for 10 years = 2.5 x 3.06 / 4 = $1.92 Billion ($53.4 Million per Rafale)

~ So far, the total adds upto $7.08 Billion.
The remaining 8.8 - 7.08 = $1.72 Billion is for ToT and covers the 50% offsets (that means, 8.8 / 2 = $4.4 Billion will be re-invested back in India)

Quoting $245 Million/ Rafale is just plain stupid. What people don't understand is that if India goes for remaining 90 Rafales for MMRCA, we'll have to pay only for the airframes, weapon and maintenance, since the two bases being set-up can handle three squadrons each without major expenditure.

That is 90 * ( 85 + 25 + 53.4 ) = $14.7 Billion excluding another $500 Million for upgradation of the bases. (again with 50% offsets)

So the total cost for 126 Rafales will be $24 Billion (pretty close to the $20 Billion quoted in the original MMRCA deal adjusting for inflation and ToT)

(Note - The figures are estimates and only provided to give you an idea as to the real cost break-up structure. The cost for 90 remaining jets will increase due to the 'Make in India' initiative for setting up assembly line. But the re-investment will compensate most of the additional cost)

#Warwolf

**Kindly share this post so that more people can be cleared of their misconception as to why this is a good deal, instead of believing what the 'paid media' has been doing till now to promote other jets**
— with Arun Ben Varghese.

Eh,I'll believe it when I read it somewhere other than a Facebook page,no source so far has indicated anything about weapons packages and short term maintenance let alone 1/4th of it's life cycle

 

[sorcerer]

Rafale Fighter Jet: France Offering 16 Critical Technologies And Lower Prices As Part of Deal?

by Aditya Bhat
The Rafale fighter deal is likely to be cleared as early as the next CCS meeting.
After prolonged negotiations, the Indo-French deal over 36 Rafale fighter jets has reached its last leg, with a high probability of it being cleared in the next Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) meeting.

The CCS decision will be critical for the French, who are reeling under pressure, owing to the recent leak in documents on the Indian Scorpene submarines. The French would breathe a sigh of relief if the deal goes through.

All the negotiations and formalities on the part of the defence ministry have been completed, reported the Economic Times.

More than the French, it will be the Indian Air Force (IAF) who would be jubilant, as they have to deal with depleting fighter fleet strength. IAF has 34 squadrons, but requires 44 squadrons to take on both Pakistan and China in the eventuality of war in both theaters.

The negotiations have been going on from the time PM Narendra Modi announced that India would be buying 36 Rafale jets in government-to-government deal and in fly-away condition. But the deal did not move forward due to pricing and offset issues.
The defence ministry has further clarified the doubts raised by Prime Minister's Office (PMO) that has scrutinised the documents.

However this time around, the deal is likely to go through as the French side has "substantially lowered" the price of the aircrafts to around 7.25 billion Euros, and only "unforeseen complications" might impede its progress. Moreover, the French have reportedly offered 16 critical technologies as part of the offset package, that will be shared with Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

The French are also willing to invest 1 billion Euros to revive the Kaveri engine project according to media reports. They are also ready to share engine technology. This is a good news for the LCA Tejas project as India looks to induct upgraded Kaveri gas turbines from 2020 onwards.

Apart from this, Dassault, the manufacturer of Rafale will partner with a private Indian company to manufacture structural parts for its Falcon executive jets. Dassault has to deliver 50 per cent offset, which is expected to create business worth at least 3 billion Euros for Indian companies.


http://www.ibtimes.co.in/rafale-fig...al-technologies-lower-prices-part-deal-693001

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale all set to fly: High level delegation to straighten last minutes differences
A high level delegation comprised of all three French defence firms, involved in the 36 Rafale fighter jet deal with Indian Air Force, have been camping in Capital to straighten the last minutes differences, if any, according to a top source in the government. After the Defence ministry approving the recommendations of the committee negotiating the deal for the last 16 months the file has now reached the Prime Minister’s Office for final vetting.

According to sources, privy to the development, representatives of Dassault aviation, MBDA and Thales are in talks with the government officials to give a much needed push for the deal. According to the contract, Dassault aviations, manufacturers the aircraft, MBDA provides weapons system package and Thales is giving avionics to the fighter jet.

“Representatives all three involved defence firms are in talks to take swift decision on any last minute doubt. Certainly, the deal is making a headway and should be done in a week’s time,”said a defence source.

It is believed that the PMO is making a strong push to conclude the deal, as it is already delayed. And the final report submitted by a team of negotiating the Rafale deal was approved by the highest acquisition body headed by the Defence minister Manohar Parrikar in its last meeting in August.

During his visit to France in April last year, Prime Minister Narendra Modi had announced that India would purchase 36 Rafale jets in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the defence ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafale fighter planes, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.

The deal is expected to be worth around 7.89 billion Euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions.

The weapon systems, part of the deal, will also include the new age beyond visual range missile Meteor and Israeli helmet mounted display.

The price of the deal was brought down from nearly 10 billion Euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons, including tough negotiation by India, the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria. It is not clear if the price has been brought down further but India was seeking more.

The new deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of jobs in India through offsets.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/R...n-to-straighten-last-minutes-differences-8048