Know Your 'Rafale'

[Jagdish58]

Let the Rafale deal be inked then we can believe

 

[sasum]

I have been patiently watching this thread, and have left notes. I am very close to considering vacation time and this might affect 4 or 5 individuals in one clear sweep. One final time, keep the discussion cordial and productive.

Your participation presumes your prior understanding and acceptance of the forum rules.

Time has come to wind up this thread. Nothing new or productive is being contributed anymore. Every aspect of Rafale has been discussed/debated at great length by perhaps the largest number of members, not to speak of the "crazy eight" whose arguments just go in circles!!
Defence acquisitions have many dimensions, just not getting a piece of hardware. India should now get over shopping mindset and adopt a DIY attitude for her own good.

 

[BON PLAN]

Seems he did fart in your face when you were looking at the hair, Strange habits the French have.. counting butt hairs .... hahaha

We have been seeing such "news" for last half a decade, I remember Reuters quoting Eric Trapier that Deal would be signed in a week, and this was almost from 3 years ago till last year and then the deal was scrapped.

Also there was such news that India will sign the deal when hollande will visit India during our independence day., and 8 months have passed.

Sorry we do not see the point to jump up and down when newspapers claim such stories. Like I said if its not coming from named official source then its crap..

By the way, you are from quebec yes? I think you still beleive you want to be French? right?

BTW, when its named official source then its interesting, unnamed high official, condition of anonymity .. is little interesting , thats just gossip, that works on IDF where everyone is jumping like the lemurs of Madagascar when king julien says something. unfortunately on DFI there are mature folks who understand that only official word is good enough.. have a nice day

you're sad !

 

[Rahul Singh]

Maybe the Indian PM ask Obama "Hey Barrack ! How chineese hackers can stole F35 and F22 datas? "

I don't understand how this balances you losing details of our one of the most secretive defence purchase costing billions to the exchequer?

It should of utter shame for your country to push us into a situation where people are saying the only guarantee that a french can give is about its gastronomy and ease at which any military can walk Paris roads. No wonder why there will be no more Scorpens beyond six in our navy. And even these six will now be more Indian than french, costing us millions more if not billions..............

I only hope you have not lost details of RBE-2 and SPECTRA already.

 

[BON PLAN]

I don't understand how this balances you losing details of our one of the most secretive defence purchase costing billions to the exchequer?

It should of utter shame for your country to push us into a situation where people are saying the only guarantee that a french can give is about its gastronomy and ease at which any military can walk Paris roads. No wonder why there will be no more Scorpens beyond six in our navy. And even these six will now be more Indian than french, costing us millions more if not billions..............

I only hope you have not lost details of RBE-2 and SPECTRA already.

Just remember some few facts :

- These famous 22000 pages are not only about Indian Scorpene. It's also about FREMM, Mistral LHD....
- The level of secret of these documents is the lowest existing in France.
- It's mainly a manual, maybe a support for training. When you read the manual of your Tata car, do you find datas about pressure in the cylinders, quality of the steel using for connecting rods, time of milling machine to make the gearing box ? ..... NO !
- The documents about indian Scorpene were stolen in 2011. First Indian Sub in only on try...
- Some components for these indian subs were not choosen in 2011 (and even not in 2016 : torpedoes ... )
- The noise level is an indication : xx dBA ... it's not a signature ! To have a signature you must heard the sub (and I think indian navy make all possible to avoid that) And each sub is different....
- You can see that nobody speaks of this story no more. It's a coup. A tabloid story telling.

To know at what speed you can use the periscope is useless.
To know the max depth is not critical, as a sub never travel at max depth all time long.

Only sexy datas for tabloid.

 

[BON PLAN]

You cannot find any other propeller photo on google of current submarines like israeli dolphine or U-212, but frogs are totally bought by chinese money. France is lobbying very hard to lift sanctions of weaponery on china by european union.

But here you see only Bharat's Scorpene sub propeller is published on google by dcns :
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/20...marine-builder-dcns-indian-vessels-affected/#

FALSE !

Because you are a worldwide propeller specialist, you can explain us what are the caracteristics of the U212 one just by having a look on it (as you think it's possible with the Scorpene one... )


About china sanctions, France was among the country asking for it ! No such lobbying in the EU to stop it....


And do you have visited France? I don't think so. So how can you say such nonsense

 

[Rahul Singh]

Just remember some few facts :

- These famous 22000 pages are not only about Indian Scorpene. It's also about FREMM, Mistral LHD....
- The level of secret of these documents is the lowest existing in France.
- It's mainly a manual, maybe a support for training. When you read the manual of your Tata car, do you find datas about pressure in the cylinders, quality of the steel using for connecting rods, time of milling machine to make the gearing box ? ..... NO !
- The documents about indian Scorpene were stolen in 2011. First Indian Sub in only on try...
- Some components for these indian subs were not choosen in 2011 (and even not in 2016 : torpedoes ... )
- The noise level is an indication : xx dBA ... it's not a signature ! To have a signature you must heard the sub (and I think indian navy make all possible to avoid that) And each sub is different....
- You can see that nobody speaks of this story no more. It's a coup. A tabloid story telling.

To know at what speed you can use the periscope is useless.
To know the max depth is not critical, as a sub never travel at max depth all time long.

Only sexy datas for tabloid.

Yet, the Indian Navy has publicly pooh-poohed the danger and insisted optimistically that the leaked information could provide no advantage to an enemy. Only after five days of denial did the naval chief admit on Monday that the leak is of serious concern.

courtesy: BROADSWORD

 

[BON PLAN]

Yet, the Indian Navy has publicly pooh-poohed the danger and insisted optimistically that the leaked information could provide no advantage to an enemy. Only after five days of denial did the naval chief admit on Monday that the leak is of serious concern.

courtesy: BROADSWORD

In 2000, a few months after the Kargil War, an Indian submarine slipped out of her moorings in Mumbai harbour and headed into the north Arabian Sea. The INS Shalki, one of the navy’s quietest submarines, was on a specific mission. It was to track Pakistan’s newest acquisition, the French-built PNS Khalid, whose deployment had been indicated by Indian intelligence. The Shalki located the Khalid and tailed it for 45 minutes, her passive sonar stealthily recording acoustic readings and frequencies. The Khalid was oblivious to the shadowing and maintained normal transit speed, which allowed the Indian vessel to record its parameters.

The Shalki had, in a single patrol, gained valuable data on Pakistan’s newest undersea combatant, the critical noise and equipment ‘signatures’ that would help the navy’s warships and aircraft track the submarine.

=> THIS IS HOW YOU GAIN THE SIGNATURE OF A SUB. Not be readieng a commercial ang marketing document.

 

[BON PLAN]

Sorry to be off topic.....

***********************************************************
No cause for worry : SCORPENE security breach

By Vice Admiral R N Ganesh (The writer is former Director-General, Nuclear Submarines project and Director, Asia Centre, Bengaluru)

The recent expose in an Australian newspaper of restricted data about the French company DCNS, designer and builder of the Scorpene class submarine under construction at Mazagon Dock Ltd, Mumbai, caused consternation in India. Undoubtedly, it was a major breach in information security. Whether or not the nature of classified data revealed adversely impacts the operational effectiveness of the Scorpene as the mainstay of the Indian Navy’s (IN) submarine force, is the issue.

Typically, the overwhelming majority of all documentation which pertains to a submarine is technical and comprises operational, maintenance and repair instructions, which may be relevant to rival commercial entities – but minimal use for an adversary at sea. The frequent reference to the number of pages that have been “leaked” should be seen in this background.

The state of the art in various aspects of submarine technology such as sensors, weapons, control systems, propulsion and power generation is known to those in the game, whether naval or shipbuilding industry. Defence industry publications especially, Jane’s Fighting Ships, Aircraft, Weapon Systems or similar ones are all exemplars of this and publish surprisingly authentic data. Generic data and performance capabilities are known or can be assessed in broad terms. The assumption that more specific details will totally tilt the balance in the adversary’s favour is, thus, highly debatable.

In all likelihood, a former DCNS employee with commercial motives shared the documentation to embarrass the company. Given that the data was written even before the submarine was built, this content must be considered largely indicative and would be subject to valid-ation by extensive tests and trials at sea.

The leaked information could be useful to two kinds of entities.Firstly, rival submarine manufacturers who offer a competitive product might desire such leaked information. Secondly, it could also interest other states for which our military capabilities are a subject of surveillance and analysis.

A major factor that differentiates submarines from other war-fighting platforms is that the submarine relies entirely on passive means of detection and identification and makes no electronic or sonic transmissions throughout its operational time at sea, except with great deliberation and under tightly controlled conditions. This method of operation drastically minimises the impact of any interceptions that may be made of submarine emissions, and neutralises any advantage the adversary may gain by knowledge of its sensor operating characteristics.

Today, even conventional diesel-electric submarines that fighting navies operate, remain submerged throughout their sea patrols, and their infrequent radio communication is made from under water through buoyant radio antennae, which obviates the need for the vessel to come near the surface.

There appears to be an impression that if parameters such as the sonar frequencies of the submarine are divulged its stealth and surveillance capabilities are neutralised. This is far from the reality – submarine sonars passively monitor the entire spectrum of underwater noise generated by other ships, which the ships can do little to prevent.

Even if they did have prior knowledge of the frequencies being monitored by the submarine, they can in no way reduce their noise signatures, nor can they affect the submarine’s effectiveness as an intelligence gatherer. This applies equally to all forms of surveillance – whether acoustic or electromagnetic – that the submarine carries out.

The most vital operational data about a submarine are the fields of energy of various types that it unavoidably generates in operation. These energy fields can be mapped to form the submarine’s signatures. Thus, the submarine has a noise (acoustic) signature, a heat or infra-red signature, an electromagnetic signature and a magnetic signature.

Combination of these signatures
Obviously, such data cannot exist in the manufacturer’s documents as it is compiled by a navy through extensive tests and trials at sea after the submarine becomes operational. It is the combination of these “signatures” that finally determines the ability to detect and identify the submarine. Thereafter, this closely guarded information is accessible to only a few officers – even within a navy.

Knowledge of frequencies of the submarine’s radiated noise as reported in the present case will not simply lay it open to detection and attack, as appears to be the conclusion in some writings. It is of little benefit to an enemy warship which has first to detect the submarine’s radiated noise.

Therein lies the basic challenge; the warship’s detection equipment can detect and analyse radiations within a broad spectrum, but the submarine will detect the warship much earlier, at several times the distance, because of its innate quietness (lower acoustic signature) compared to the warship.

The adversary requires actionable information related to a submarine’s manoeuvres and any indication to launch weapons. As far as a submarine’s weapon control and other systems are concerned, these are internal operations of the vessel to manage its fire control system, machinery, manoeuvre systems, and so on. They do not enter the adversary’s information system or impact his engagement, and are of little relevance or interest to him.

Whatever the latest technology advances may be, one fact should never be lost sight of: it is not technology alone but knowledge, professionalism, dedication and discipline that will spell success in any battle. Fortunately, the IN’s submarine arm is endowed with all these qualities and, therefore, the nation need not have to worry on this count.

 

[smestarz]

FEW things, to add.
A) when you talk of 22400 pages of Data, and that to not limited to only Scorpene but also FREMM and Mistraal then its indeed a lot of secrets out.
B) Do you really complehend how much 22400 pages are? surely from some of the redacted info that is out, thats quite infoirmative and that is just tip of the ice berg, THE AUSTRALIAN had indicated that there are pages which are marked TOP SECRET etc etc
C) Now based on what you said here, then either the French are in habit of even writing about Toilet seat in office and marking it as TOP SECRET (thus each word even about ordering paper clips is top secret) or the information is really top secret. If the INFORMATIOn is not such sensitvie info, why did DCNS try to get injunction on the Australian to not publish more data. I mean if the data is not important as you say, why spend money on court to get injunction? Because the data is sensitive and how easily it was lost is ridiculous.. I mean any subcontractor can get into DCNS and copy all data.
D) Seems DCNS never knew the data was stolen,
E) Scorpene deal was signed around 2005, and thus if the data was lost in 2011, whatever data it has is criitcal data of INDIAN SCORPENES.

The tabloids have shown sexy data for getting interest, and now the French DCNS, is running around trying to recover this Sexy data and more. by the way, 22400 pages of Data will be more than what you have written from the time you started to write till now.. thats just the scale .

Just remember some few facts :

- These famous 22000 pages are not only about Indian Scorpene. It's also about FREMM, Mistral LHD....
- The level of secret of these documents is the lowest existing in France.
- It's mainly a manual, maybe a support for training. When you read the manual of your Tata car, do you find datas about pressure in the cylinders, quality of the steel using for connecting rods, time of milling machine to make the gearing box ? ..... NO !
- The documents about indian Scorpene were stolen in 2011. First Indian Sub in only on try...
- Some components for these indian subs were not choosen in 2011 (and even not in 2016 : torpedoes ... )
- The noise level is an indication : xx dBA ... it's not a signature ! To have a signature you must heard the sub (and I think indian navy make all possible to avoid that) And each sub is different....
- You can see that nobody speaks of this story no more. It's a coup. A tabloid story telling.

To know at what speed you can use the periscope is useless.
To know the max depth is not critical, as a sub never travel at max depth all time long.

Only sexy datas for tabloid.

 

[smestarz]

A query, how does visiting France relate to lobbying in EU to remove sanctions from China?
How exactly are they related? I mean Lobbying to remove sanctions is issue of Foreign policy . Do they have it different way in France?

FALSE !
View attachment 10160

Because you are a worldwide propeller specialist, you can explain us what are the caracteristics of the U212 one just by having a look on it (as you think it's possible with the Scorpene one... )


About china sanctions, France was among the country asking for it ! No such lobbying in the EU to stop it....


And do you have visited France? I don't think so. So how can you say such nonsense

 

[smestarz]

If the French would have given the Data to us about the French built Pakistani submarine, we would not really have to send Shalki to find the data .. Soo, German submarine built in 1992 is much silent and better than French built much modern submarine ?? Are you trying to concede this?

In 2000, a few months after the Kargil War, an Indian submarine slipped out of her moorings in Mumbai harbour and headed into the north Arabian Sea. The INS Shalki, one of the navy’s quietest submarines, was on a specific mission. It was to track Pakistan’s newest acquisition, the French-built PNS Khalid, whose deployment had been indicated by Indian intelligence. The Shalki located the Khalid and tailed it for 45 minutes, her passive sonar stealthily recording acoustic readings and frequencies. The Khalid was oblivious to the shadowing and maintained normal transit speed, which allowed the Indian vessel to record its parameters.

The Shalki had, in a single patrol, gained valuable data on Pakistan’s newest undersea combatant, the critical noise and equipment ‘signatures’ that would help the navy’s warships and aircraft track the submarine.

=> THIS IS HOW YOU GAIN THE SIGNATURE OF A SUB. Not be readieng a commercial ang marketing document.

 

[smestarz]

The easy way would have been for France to give us the data and then we confirm the data,. but then we thought best to do it the HARD WAY..And we did it. right? So, there was no french help here when Indian navy's older German designed Submarine tracked a then much modern French built Submarine, Hmmm

In 2000, a few months after the Kargil War, an Indian submarine slipped out of her moorings in Mumbai harbour and headed into the north Arabian Sea. The INS Shalki, one of the navy’s quietest submarines, was on a specific mission. It was to track Pakistan’s newest acquisition, the French-built PNS Khalid, whose deployment had been indicated by Indian intelligence. The Shalki located the Khalid and tailed it for 45 minutes, her passive sonar stealthily recording acoustic readings and frequencies. The Khalid was oblivious to the shadowing and maintained normal transit speed, which allowed the Indian vessel to record its parameters.

The Shalki had, in a single patrol, gained valuable data on Pakistan’s newest undersea combatant, the critical noise and equipment ‘signatures’ that would help the navy’s warships and aircraft track the submarine.

=> THIS IS HOW YOU GAIN THE SIGNATURE OF A SUB. Not be readieng a commercial ang marketing document.

 

[smestarz]

And since yoiu are off topic, how exactly do you know what Data was leaked based on seeing 6 pages out of 22400 ?

Interesting no ?

Next time try to post Scorpene stuff on scorpene thread only.
This is Rafale thread unless you want to tell me that Rafale data is leaked too

 

[Jagdish58]

And since yoiu are off topic, how exactly do you know what Data was leaked based on seeing 6 pages out of 22400 ?

Interesting no ?

Next time try to post Scorpene stuff on scorpene thread only.
This is Rafale thread unless you want to tell me that Rafale data is leaked too

Mate you are wasteing time on troll

let us debate something feasible

"Don't understand logic behind buying 36 rafales , what the heck IAF will do with such meagre qty ?? definitely they will cry for more and eat up the budget

I might be wrong in these number projection ,
LCA-Mk1 ( FOC configuration) atleast IAF should order = 80 nos
LCA-Mk1A = 100 nos
LCA - Mk2 with Eurojet powerplant / later kaveri upgraded = 150 nos ( GE-414 uncle sam will surprise so better take it out )
-Private consortium second production line for all LCA variants

SU-30 Super MKI = 272 nos
Mirage-2000 = 51 nos
Mig-29 = 61 nos

let us not bring AMCA and FGFA in picture

With these numbers Squadron strength comes to 44.5 , with 16 nos per squadron . Easily said then done but not impossible "

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale deal at final clearance level, may get go ahead soon
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Sep 08, 2016, 06.31 AM IST

NEW DELHI: It's going to be a big test for Indo-French relations as the Rafale fighter jet deal has reached the final clearance level after protracted negotiations. The price of the combat aircraft has come down to 7.25 billion and Paris is offering cutting-edge technology, including jet engine knowhow, to India.

Sources told ET the deal for 36 fighter aircraft could be cleared as early as the next meeting of the Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS), with the defence ministry completing all formalities and negotiations with the French side.

A decision on the deal is critical for France that has suffered a setback with the leak of sensitive documents of the Scorpene submarine project, currently being executed in Mumbai.

Also, French firms have come under the scanner for donations to an NGO operated by a Delhi-based consultant. The fighter jet deal, which was first announced during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's Paris trip in April 2015, has been stuck for over a year on pricing and offset issues. The final terms of contract are currently being vetted by the Prime Minister's Office (PMO).

Sources said the issues raised by the PMO, after a scrutiny of documents, have been clarified by the defence ministry. "Unless there are any unforeseen complications, the jet fighter contract should happen soon. The price has been substantially lowered after several rounds of tough negotiations," an official aware of the developments told ET.

As part of the deal, France will invest 50 per cent of the value of the deal in the domestic defence and aviation sectors as an offset clause. France has offered 16 critical technologies to India as part of the deal.

These technologies, which would be valued as part of the offset package, would be shared with the Defence Research and Development Organisation. The French side has also expressed its willingness to share technology and invest 1-billion to revive India's combat jet engine project, Kaveri. The plan is to develop an upgraded gas turbine to power indigenous Tejas fighters by 2020.

The French side will also assist Indian private industry in setting up a global supply chain as part of the offset plan. Among other projects, French firm Dassault is likely to set up a line in India with a private partner to manufacture major structural parts for its Falcon executive jet aircraft.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...-ahead-soon/articleshow/54158710.cms?from=mdr

 

[BON PLAN]

A query, how does visiting France relate to lobbying in EU to remove sanctions from China?

It's not.
I an

A query, how does visiting France relate to lobbying in EU to remove sanctions from China?
How exactly are they related? I mean Lobbying to remove sanctions is issue of Foreign policy . Do they have it different way in France?

1) I was not answering to you....
2) I answer how is it possible to say "but frogs are totally bought by chinese money" whan you even don't have visited France.

Read carefully the post before answering my dear Smestarz. To avoid off topic.

 

[BON PLAN]

If the French would have given the Data to us about the French built Pakistani submarine, we would not really have to send Shalki to find the data .. Soo, German submarine built in 1992 is much silent and better than French built much modern submarine ?? Are you trying to concede this?

1) Why giving you datas about P**i subs? not in that sens, and not in the other. And please don't come back with argentina's exocet. It was a war between a customer and a near, strong and cherish ally. And in this case we just stop the delivery.
2) The first P**i Agosta 90B was built in 1999. It was in test in 2000, when the indian sub sniff it. You can't compare a mature recent sub and one in test.
3) If the German sub was so nice, why it loose the Australian mega deal ?

 

[BON PLAN]

And since yoiu are off topic, how exactly do you know what Data was leaked based on seeing 6 pages out of 22400 ?

Interesting no ?

Next time try to post Scorpene stuff on scorpene thread only.
This is Rafale thread unless you want to tell me that Rafale data is leaked too

My dear Smestarz, it was YOU who opend this off topic about Scorpene on this thread........

 

[BON PLAN]

Mate you are wasteing time on troll

let us debate something feasible

"Don't understand logic behind buying 36 rafales , what the heck IAF will do with such meagre qty ?? definitely they will cry for more and eat up the budget

I might be wrong in these number projection ,
LCA-Mk1 ( FOC configuration) atleast IAF should order = 80 nos
LCA-Mk1A = 100 nos
LCA - Mk2 with Eurojet powerplant / later kaveri upgraded = 150 nos ( GE-414 uncle sam will surprise so better take it out )
-Private consortium second production line for all LCA variants

SU-30 Super MKI = 272 nos
Mirage-2000 = 51 nos
Mig-29 = 61 nos

let us not bring AMCA and FGFA in picture

With these numbers Squadron strength comes to 44.5 , with 16 nos per squadron . Easily said then done but not impossible "

DREAMER, YOU KNOW YOU ARE A DREAMER ? (Supertramp)

LCA mk2 with Eurojet ?