Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

I can understand your situation . Your are really in a tight corner to defend the falling franch economy and also the tight spot of rafale where export orders rafail got are less than 25

You understand nothing, and are badly informed.

French economy is not falling. We are 5th or 6th world economy. Do you want to compare ???

To date DA have exported 24 Rafale to Egypt and 24 to Qatar. With 12 options each. The 12 for Egypt are already on the table to be released this year.

And stop using "Rafail" ! it's a kind attitude.

 

[BON PLAN]

Man you know really inside........... are you
In the negotiations team.....
but
Okkk you can take this way
thats why modi is giving them only signal
That is red
france is waiting. ....... from 2 years
they are still waiting. ......
on this price they will wait forever

it is foolish to be a franch....... they never understand that we are not interested in more than 36.
and for those 36 they should make some offer that is irresistible to us.

The DA team is in Paris, quietly. Our last offer is on the table. You take it or you go away. It's a simple as that.
Dassault has NEVER loss money on a contract ! It's not with India they will start.

 

[salute]

Even not.
Dassault has already exported 48 planes, with 2x12 on option to be released soon. UAE had promised to order 60 Rafale (2 or 3 batchs of 30 or 20 each). The Indian order is not vital, but will be appreciate.

lol , so dassault export 48 jets and just a promise and not an actual deal with uae is enough for dassault ,

and could be 100 rafale order from india gonna mean nothing for dassault ,

maybe you do not know how desperate dassault is for this order , appreciate is very small word you thinking about .

 

[gadeshi]

A lot of russian planes lovers were speaking about it last year (for Egypte and for MMRCA substitute). Not me, you imagine without effort...
You give us a confirmation : it is not ready.

Of cource it was not ready!
That's why it has lost the contest (not due to technology disadvantages like Russian planes haters say).
And all the sane people knew this from the Day1.
The cause is that MiG has a bunch of stupid delusions about worlds weapons market and its place in it. MiG has severely suffered in the harsh 90-s, so its engineering team strength and maturity was under a big question until early 2015, when it was clear that MiG has mostly recovered from it.
So MiG has hoped to repeat Su-30MKI bright story - offer a non-ready technical project and make it as a JV with Indian financing. But MiG had non-mature marketing and RG teams as well that time, cause they've have missed the contests main requirement - a plane must be ready to produce and fly at the time of contest will be held.
As we can see now, MiG has recovered and become rather more mature last years. MiG-29M/M2 and K/KUB projects have shown this with clarity.

 

[gadeshi]

This is a silly comment. Sorry to say that.
France GDP is nearly 2800 € billions. These 7 or 8 billions are not vital for us. We will not make another effort. All is on the table. You take it or you leave it. A proof? DA delegation is no more in India.

Please minus all the debts/loans and speculative financial derivatives from this number to know the truth

 

[gadeshi]

And a different planes per-hour maintenance costs for your concideration:

 

[smestarz]

Dassault has not yet EXPORTED 48 planes, They have not even fulfilled the order yet,

And what UAE promises etc, is not considered order. UAE will wait and see India's position,'
BTW if UAE is so sure, why they dont pay the advance to France and then they can always negotiate.
UAE is not sure what plane to buy as yet,
1. F-35 .. they wont be getting
2. F/A-18,, maybe no, maybe F-15 ..but do they need such a plane?
3. F-16 Block 70.. maybe
Now having through these there are few others
Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale,
Gripen is good, but they have similar plane F-16 so gripen will not really be useful
Eurofighter and Rafale are what will possibly fighting for the deal

Some years ago when MMRCA winner was announced, the Rafale fanboys were counting like 126 + 63 + few for the navy etc etc, Now its just 36 being discussed, that should tell you that nothing is done till the order is signed and advance paid.

Even not.
Dassault has already exported 48 planes, with 2x12 on option to be released soon. UAE had promised to order 60 Rafale (2 or 3 batchs of 30 or 20 each). The Indian order is not vital, but will be appreciate.

 

[BON PLAN]

lol , so dassault export 48 jets and just a promise and not an actual deal with uae is enough for dassault ,

and could be 100 rafale order from india gonna mean nothing for dassault ,

maybe you do not know how desperate dassault is for this order , appreciate is very small word you thinking about .

Dassault rely on business jet for 70% today.
France army has nearly 25 Rafale on the order book for the last 4th batch (total of 180 jets). There will be a 5th batch of 45 plane at least (at least because France as all other west country will increase its military budget in the next future).
SO NO HURRY.
Pressure is not on Dassault. DA has made its last and final offer. All has an end. This is the end of the bargaining.

 

[BON PLAN]

Dassault has not yet EXPORTED 48 planes, They have not even fulfilled the order yet,

And what UAE promises etc, is not considered order. UAE will wait and see India's position,'
BTW if UAE is so sure, why they dont pay the advance to France and then they can always negotiate.
UAE is not sure what plane to buy as yet,
1. F-35 .. they wont be getting
2. F/A-18,, maybe no, maybe F-15 ..but do they need such a plane?
3. F-16 Block 70.. maybe
Now having through these there are few others
Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale,
Gripen is good, but they have similar plane F-16 so gripen will not really be useful
Eurofighter and Rafale are what will possibly fighting for the deal

Some years ago when MMRCA winner was announced, the Rafale fanboys were counting like 126 + 63 + few for the navy etc etc, Now its just 36 being discussed, that should tell you that nothing is done till the order is signed and advance paid.

The 48 are not delivered yet, but are on order, with a Financial wire made. If it is not an order, WHAT IS IT ?

UAE waiting india's decision? It's a joke my friend. You have taken too much sun on your head. UAE are a muslim country. India not.

Gripen? too light. lighter than F16-60.
Eurofighter? When they found Rafale not COMMECIALLY suited, they found after Eurofighter not TECHNICALLY suited. It's dead for EF.
F16-70? and why not a -80? -60 was the last avatar of this prolific familly, but it's the end. Just see all the bulbs and conformal tanks on the -60.... it's the end of this familly.
SH18? A flying brick. UAE will NEVER take such a plane.
F15? SF15? I think UAE don't want to have the same plane than Saudi Arabia.

 

[smestarz]

Like I said, France has just the order, they have NOT EXPORTED the numbers, those are not fully in production either. There is difference between ,, ORDERED, PRODUCED,.. EXPORTED (shipped out)
Maybe you need the right choice of words

You understand nothing, and are badly informed.

French economy is not falling. We are 5th or 6th world economy. Do you want to compare ???

To date DA have exported 24 Rafale to Egypt and 24 to Qatar. With 12 options each. The 12 for Egypt are already on the table to be released this year.

And stop using "Rafail" ! it's a kind attitude.

 

[BON PLAN]

Like I said, France has just the order, they have NOT EXPORTED the numbers, those are not fully in production either. There is difference between ,, ORDERED, PRODUCED,.. EXPORTED (shipped out)
Maybe you need the right choice of words

One and a half year ago, DA even had not an export order.
What's important is the backlog. DA has 25 Rafale to deliver to France on the 4th batch, plus 18 Rafale remaining for Egypt plus 24 for Quatar = 67 Rafale.

France will ordered at least 45 planes more for a last 5th batch.
Egypt is in negociation for 12 more this year
As Qatar (but later)

add maybe India (and Malaysia), UAE.....

=> Pressure is not on DA, even with the ramp up of production to 22 plane/year in 2018.

 

[salute]

Dassault rely on business jet for 70% today.
France army has nearly 25 Rafale on the order book for the last 4th batch (total of 180 jets). There will be a 5th batch of 45 plane at least (at least because France as all other west country will increase its military budget in the next future).
SO NO HURRY.
Pressure is not on Dassault. DA has made its last and final offer. All has an end. This is the end of the bargaining.

french air force ordering french jets thats bread and butter maybe ,

but jam and honey is foreign orders .

 

[Immanuel]

First you even are not aware offset is 50% and not 30% as you say. you really are misinformed on the subject.

F35 is not truly induced. It break the neck of the smaller pilot. ALIS doesn't run. The engine takes fire and is to be de rated to avoid this. GB, Italy, Netherlands, Denmark are cutting orders. Canada will prefer SH18....

Please compare the two when the two will be equally potent. For the moment the F35 is a poor an low impressiv aeroclub plane.

With current production, there are probably more F-35's flying around than the Rafale. 50% offsets are good but again, doesn't matter, as we know once it comes to implementation, the French will screw it up anyways. You are stating issues all related to an aircraft that is still very much under testing a good 4 years from FOC, quite a bitch for taking this attitude. More so, a revolutionary product always has teething issues. The only thing revolutionary about the Rafale is BS marketing.

 

[asianobserve]

First you even are not aware offset is 50% and not 30% as you say. you really are misinformed on the subject.

F35 is not truly induced. It break the neck of the smaller pilot. ALIS doesn't run. The engine takes fire and is to be de rated to avoid this. GB, Italy, Netherlands, Denmark are cutting orders. Canada will prefer SH18....

Please compare the two when the two will be equally potent. For the moment the F35 is a poor an low impressiv aeroclub plane.

1. MB ejection seat only affects light weight pilots and MB has already fixes for this issue.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...3/martin-baker-has-fix-f-35-seat-safety-issue

2. ALIS worked perfectly in recent F-35 deployments to Netherlands and the more recent one in UK.
http://www.janes.com/article/62328/...oyment-to-uk-exercises-remote-alis-operations

3. Have you heard of F-35 crashing in the Atlantic in all its trans-Atlantic crossings? So that F135 reliability issue is just propaganda.

4. Only Canada is reconsidering its order for F-35 due to politics (on the other hand the Canadian Air Force wants the F-35). On the contrary a new country Denmark has ordered the F-35 and more will definitely order if not for political sensitivities and future security concerns (like Middle Eastern countries).

5. 100% the F-35 will swallow that disco era Rafale whole in a one-on-one engagement.

So please. It's already hard enough for you French to justify selling Rafale in the early 2000s against 4th gen fighters in production, it is even harder to sell it now against 5th gen fighters. Only those who cannot afford and who (can afford but) are not allowed to buy F-35 will ever consider buying that oppressively expensive (for its capabilities) disco dancing antique.

 

[BON PLAN]

The only thing revolutionary about the Rafale is BS marketing.

NO!
We are beaten by Lockeed Martin. Explaining F35 is a 5th gen aircraft is a feat.

 

[BON PLAN]

1. MB ejection seat only affects light weight pilots and MB has already fixes for this issue.
http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...3/martin-baker-has-fix-f-35-seat-safety-issue

2. ALIS worked perfectly in recent F-35 deployments to Netherlands and the more recent one in UK.
http://www.janes.com/article/62328/...oyment-to-uk-exercises-remote-alis-operations

3. Have you heard of F-35 crashing in the Atlantic in all its trans-Atlantic crossings? So that F135 reliability issue is just propaganda.

4. Only Canada is reconsidering its order for F-35 due to politics (on the other hand the Canadian Air Force wants the F-35). On the contrary a new country Denmark has ordered the F-35 and more will definitely order if not for political sensitivities and future security concerns (like Middle Eastern countries).

5. 100% the F-35 will swallow that disco era Rafale whole in a one-on-one engagement.

So please. It's already hard enough for you French to justify selling Rafale in the early 2000s against 4th gen fighters in production, it is even harder to sell it now against 5th gen fighters. Only those who cannot afford and who (can afford but) are not allowed to buy F-35 will ever consider buying that oppressively expensive (for its capabilities) disco dancing antique.

Ejection seat with new helmet is already on test.

ALIS worked very well? it's not what USAF itself said last weeks.

Do you really think the political top brass systematically purchase what the national army want ? Ask Swiss force what was the plane they want (Rafale) and what is the plane they may have (Gripen. Euhhh.... no ! nothing for the moment).

F35 has flown over how many battlefield? ZERO. and it will remain ZERO until somes yearSSSS. Don't compare a mature plane and a toy. Even not sexy this toy

 

[Zebra]

And a different planes per-hour maintenance costs for your concideration:

https://www.ftm.nl/upload/content/f...osts White Paper FINAL 13th March 2012(1).pdf

 

[smestarz]

I think you are twisting some of the points..

Did the Swiss air force ever get on record and say " we want Rafale? " I would sure be interested to see such official statment or even a recorded comment by Swiss Air force Top brass.
Most Generals and Air chief marshalls prefer to keep low profile and rarely make comments or statetments. The only air chiefs who were presently more active in commenting were NAK Browne and then Arup Raha and both apparently were trying to push the Rafale deal no matter what. The example is that when DM Parrikar was having price discussion with French side, there is no need for the air chief to comment "there is no plan B .." and that was the point that gave them out. Now you see where its going? DM already pushing the production and induction of Tejas, Rafale,. stuck in limbo.. Already discussion going to be for PAKFA and super sukhoi upgrades.

France and Dassault thought their pushing the govt threatening them about national security will make the DM sign the dotted line, but unfortunately it has turned out to be counter productive, The DM now has ensured that he has put the IAF top brass on the spot and by passed them on many issues including spares for MiG-29 and Sukhoi with excellent spare management plans, and due to this, the spares of Sukhoi will be available within a month or so which other wise when totally under IAF top brass was taking a year or more. Now the defence ministry is also involved in knowing the situation of spares. Actually much of the power of IAF is being watered down, I really wonder if IAF has noticed it, Army is having its own aviation corps, now Helicopters and later planes. Navy already going for N-LCA which may be flown from Shore bases which may actually end up to a position where Navy makes requests for building more shore bases as protecting the maritine border of India is Navy job and not air force.. P-8I is under Navy not air force.

F-35 has not been in serious combat nor has Rafale, I mean dropping bombs on countries that have antiquated air defence is it really combat? USAF does more in combat stimulations for F-35.. When a plane is too mature, its called junk or antique, already Rafale has reached that level., When Rafale cannot match the avionics of F-35 you start to question the actual definition of 5th Gen, but when it comes to praising Rafale you do talk of 5th Gen tech on Rafale.. So do make up your mind and stand by it..
Seems you started to enjoy the taste good, I shall keep feeding you till you enjoy it..Bon appetit

Ejection seat with new helmet is already on test.

ALIS worked very well? it's not what USAF itself said last weeks.

Do you really think the political top brass systematically purchase what the national army want ? Ask Swiss force what was the plane they want (Rafale) and what is the plane they may have (Gripen. Euhhh.... no ! nothing for the moment).

F35 has flown over how many battlefield? ZERO. and it will remain ZERO until somes yearSSSS. Don't compare a mature plane and a toy. Even not sexy this toy

 

[asianobserve]

Ejection seat with new helmet is already on test.

No. All fixes are already available.

ALIS worked very well? it's not what USAF itself said last weeks.

ALIS even in its current form is already enough to maintain the F-35 on extended overseas deployments.

Do you really think the political top brass systematically purchase what the national army want ? Ask Swiss force what was the plane they want (Rafale) and what is the plane they may have (Gripen. Euhhh.... no ! nothing for the moment).

The Swiss chose Gripen over Rafale because the capability difference is so negligible but the price difference is massive. The Rafale is like a very expensive hooker.

F35 has flown over how many battlefield? ZERO. and it will remain ZERO until somes yearSSSS. Don't compare a mature plane and a toy. Even not sexy this toy

I have no doubt it will soon be tested in the Middle East against ISIS.

 

[gadeshi]

No. All fixes are already available.




ALIS even in its current form is already enough to maintain the F-35 on extended overseas deployments.




The Swiss chose Gripen over Rafale because the capability difference is so negligible but the price difference is massive. The Rafale is like a very expensive hooker.




I have no doubt it will soon be tested in the Middle East against ISIS.

Soon will be 2019 or 2020, when 3F software Block will be tested and stabilized.

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk