Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

F-35 Unit Cost To Go Below $100 Million, Maker Says

http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/07/f-35-unit-cost-to-go-below-100-million.html?m=1

Now India should go for it....better choice then Rafale

100 USD million ?
Without engine.
With a support system called ALIS, not ready, and stored in a US computer (USA will be able, from homeland, to switch on or off your plane.... )

 

[Arjun25]

France imposes new conditions with India on Rafale deal

 

[WolfPack86]

Deadlock over India's Rafale purchase continues
India has failed to meet Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar's June deadline to close a deal with France for 36 Dassault Rafale fighters for the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Negotiations remain stalemated over cost, offsets and legal issues, with industry sources telling IHS Jane's that no talks have taken place in recent weeks between the two sides to advance the Rafale purchase under a bilateral inter-governmental agreement announced by Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi in Paris in April 2015.

Officials also told IHS Jane's that India's Ministry of Defence (MoD) is still evaluating France's revised and reportedly final offer of EUR7.5 billion (USD8.46 billion) for the 36 fighters.
http://www.janes.com/article/62152/deadlock-over-india-s-rafale-purchase-continues

 

[WolfPack86]

France Puts Off India by Proposing New Conditions for Rafale Deal
Inter-government talks between India and France on the purchase of Rafale fighter planes have hit another major roadblock as France has reportedly proposed an arrangement that India is most likely to reject outright.
NEW DELHI(Sputnik) — Highly placed sources in India's Defense Ministry have confirmed that France has been exerting undue pressure on India to seal the Rafale fighter aircraft deal without finalizing the mandatory offset contracts. The offset clause of India's Defense Procurement Policy (DPP) mandates that foreign vendors spend a portion of the deal's amount on projects within India.



France has proposed that it would assist India in reviving the unsuccessful Kaveri gas turbine jet engine project and a host of other projects including the manufacturing of fighter jet components, but it would take a final call only after the contract for the procurement of Rafale jets is formally signed.

Expert has view that India's revised Defense Procurement Policy (DPP) has no room for such an arrangement.
Amit Cowshish, former finance advisor to the Ministry of Defense, says, "Defense Procurement Policy doesn't support this proposal. According to the Indian defense policy, the Rafale deal contract as well as offsets contract ought to be signed at the same time. If the Ministry of Defense took this deal as exceptional, only then is it possible; but under the set procedure this is not possible.
The offset policy is a mandatory provision which requires foreign vendors to invest a portion of the deal's amount in India. The rationale behind the provision is to encourage foreign companies to invest in research and development, which would eventually make India self-dependent in defense equipment manufacturing. The French are willing to invest 50% of the deal's amount, out of which 30% will be invested in the military aerospace research & development program.
Sources from the Ministry of Defense say that France's new condition has further complicated the deal, which had already been held back due to its many hiccups. To date, not a single major issue has been resolved between the negotiators. Apart from offset projects, the Ministry of Defense has yet to respond to the Ministry of Law's objection over inter-governmental agreement for the Rafale deal.

On January 26 this year, Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and visiting French President Francois Hollande had suggested in a joint statement that negotiation for the purchase of 36 Rafale medium multi-role combat aircraft was near completion. Later, Manohar Parrikar, India's Minister of Defense set a June 2016 deadline for the deal. However, the deal was not announced in June. Moreover, soures confirm that negotiators have not met for over a month now.
http://sputniknews.com/military/20160712/1042832680/india-france-rafale-deal.html

 

[smestarz]

So seems no champagne this year Rafale fanboys....is saaal neembu paani pee lo..

 

[BON PLAN]

So seems no champagne this year Rafale fanboys....is saaal neembu paani pee lo..

Sputnik news.....

 

[harsh]

100 USD million ?
Without engine.
With a support system called ALIS, not ready, and stored in a US computer (USA will be able, from homeland, to switch on or off your plane.... )

First it is a totally shocking statement you make without any source.
without engine no company had done such a miraculous sale of fighter aircraft ever.
but lets assume you are true
so that f35 with engine and support systems it will be around same price of rafale with added 5th gen tag. And Rafale comes with 4th gen tag.
why would anyone save some money and buy 90s junk when you can have brand new latest technology.

 

[Immanuel]

First it is a totally shocking statement you make without any source.
without engine no company had done such a miraculous sale of fighter aircraft ever.
but lets assume you are true
so that f35 with engine and support systems it will be around same price of rafale with added 5th gen tag. And Rafale comes with 4th gen tag.
why would anyone save some money and buy 90s junk when you can have brand new latest technology.

The pro-rafale campers keep whining, this was never about the aircraft but always about the people peddling it, as said before I have known hookers with more integrity than those bitches at Dassault. Fact is Norway just bought 27 F-35s for just over 3 billion that is around $111 million per bird.

 

[BON PLAN]

First it is a totally shocking statement you make without any source.
without engine no company had done such a miraculous sale of fighter aircraft ever.
but lets assume you are true
so that f35 with engine and support systems it will be around same price of rafale with added 5th gen tag. And Rafale comes with 4th gen tag.
why would anyone save some money and buy 90s junk when you can have brand new latest technology.

The F35 price was given without engine. It's not new. But I never said this marvelous flying brick will be selled without. But just add a couple of millions.
Don't be stupid with gen. It's only LM marketing (well done, it's true). LM itself said 5th gen is : stealthy, supercruise. F35 is not a super cruiser.... LM itself said F35 will have the F16 manoeuvrability. It hasn't.

 

[BON PLAN]

The pro-rafale campers keep whining, this was never about the aircraft but always about the people peddling it, as said before I have known hookers with more integrity than those bitches at Dassault. Fact is Norway just bought 27 F-35s for just over 3 billion that is around $111 million per bird.

$111 million (if it's true) = dry price, ie without support. It's like when you buy a car : there is some lubricant in the motor, air in the tires, but no fuel, no beer in the chest, no road map.

in same condition Rafale costs 80 millions euro = 72 $ millions.

 

[BON PLAN]

According to the GAO, the US Court of accounts, investment reached the Pentagon and $ 390 billion for the development and acquisition of 2,457 appliances for US forces (Air Force, Navy and Marines), for a price of 159 million dollars per aircraft. Far, far from the $ 81 million provided in 2001 to launch the program.

It could be expected that the export price is lower, the development costs are, of course, that once charged the country, and export customers generally benefiting from price excluding development . Surprisingly, the price granted by the Koreans seem higher than the US price, if we look at the figures from the Korean Yonhap news agency. The Korean order is based on 40 aircraft at 7.07 billion dollars, a price of $ 176.8 million, 18 million more than the USAF price.
How to explain this discrepancy? A specialist in military aviation decrypts "The Korean is very likely the true price of the F-35 for non-partners in the program countries. The US price, he comes from a very complicated calculation, which incorporates estimates of future production costs, which is why it is constantly evolving. "

 

[WolfPack86]

Rafale deal to figure in DAC tomorrow
New Delhi, Jul 13 (PTI) The much hyped multi-billion dollar Rafale deal could see some forward movement tomorrow as the top acquisition body of the Defence Ministry is set to take a review of the negotiations held so far into the purchase of the French fighters.

Defence sources said the Rafale fighter jet deal is one of the issues that will be discussed during the meeting of the Defence Acquisition Council tomorrow at the South Block.

As per the normal process, once the deal is cleared by Defence Ministry, the file will go to the Finance Ministry and then to the Cabinet Committee on Security for final clearance.
In an interview to PTI in May, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had said he was looking at wrapping up the deal soon and this could mean by end of June or July.

Rejecting suggestions that there has been a delay in signing the contract for nearly 7.89 Billion Euros to procure the French fighter planes, the Minister said any such process takes at least 6-8 months.

The deal was announced by Modi in April last year during his visit to France when he said India would purchase 36 Rafales in a government-to-government contract.

Soon after the announcement, the Defence Ministry scrapped a separate process that was on to purchase 126 Rafales, built by French defence giant Dassault Aviation.
The current deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets.

The commercial negotiations, as in the pricing of the planes, equipment and other issues, actually began only in mid-January this year
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/rafale-deal-to-figure-in-dac-tomorrow/1/714069.html

 

[Ved]

I hope the final deal will be a pleasant surprise to all those in favour of the deal.

 

[smestarz]

99% of the probablity is that the indians will reject the deal because it really has nothing to offer.
France / Dassault is only offering carrots that they would help for development of Kaveri, they do know its India's soft point. India had earlier had Safran as consultants on Kaveri and they did not do anything, and that is in spite of us paying them Why should we expect there would be a development in this case in future? Rather it will be like we hoping and they fooling us again,

there is a nice phrase,,, "He fooled me once shame on him, he fooled me twice shame on ME" so its best not to let the French fool us,

France will be desperate to have more business with India, because India is mover of products, defence products around the world are purchased many times because India is either interested or purchasing the products. MiG-29K and Su-30 MKI are prime examples of it, If without India, Rafale will not fail, but it will NOT BE A COMMERCIAL SUCCESS. which is why France really wants the order but are too greedy or proud to accept Indian conditions.. Once they get over their "EUROPEAN COLONIAL MENTALITY" they might accept most conditions by India.

 

[BON PLAN]

99% of the probablity is that the indians will reject the deal because it really has nothing to offer.
France / Dassault is only offering carrots that they would help for development of Kaveri, they do know its India's soft point. India had earlier had Safran as consultants on Kaveri and they did not do anything, and that is in spite of us paying them Why should we expect there would be a development in this case in future? Rather it will be like we hoping and they fooling us again,

there is a nice phrase,,, "He fooled me once shame on him, he fooled me twice shame on ME" so its best not to let the French fool us,

France will be desperate to have more business with India, because India is mover of products, defence products around the world are purchased many times because India is either interested or purchasing the products. MiG-29K and Su-30 MKI are prime examples of it, If without India, Rafale will not fail, but it will NOT BE A COMMERCIAL SUCCESS. which is why France really wants the order but are too greedy or proud to accept Indian conditions.. Once they get over their "EUROPEAN COLONIAL MENTALITY" they might accept most conditions by India.

You are not tired saying the same BS every week?

 

[WolfPack86]

Defence Acquisition Council briefed about Rafale deal
The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) held its meeting here on Thursday and was briefed about the progress in the Rafale fighter jet deal by the committee negotiating its purchase, defence ministry sources said.

They said the DAC directed the committee to submit its report expeditiously.

The deal for purchasing 36 Rafale combat jets in fly-away condition was inked during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to France last April.

A negotiating team was constituted to decide on the deal and is holding talks with the French side.

The price has been a major sticking point in the deal with India trying to bring it down for the fighter jet known to be one of the most expensive in the world.

The deal comes with a clause for delivering 50 per cent offsets, expected to generate business worth at least three billion euros for Indian companies.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...briefed-about-rafale-deal-116071401042_1.html

 

[smestarz]

Reuters had a good reputation, but then it was putting in news almost a year ago ".... India will sign Rafale deal in a week..." and they had also quoted Eric Trappier,

If you compare Sputnik vs Reuters vis a vis news about Rafale, Sputnik has been very accurate in this regards

Sputnik news.....

 

[smestarz]

The French apparently want to spew all the BS for other planes, but when one questions Rafail they start to question even the official statements. The French members (and their Indian poodles) here have gone as far as calling DM Parrikar as an IDIOT, simply because he is not eager to sign the Rafale deal

From the French side, they are trying to convince that a few billion dollars here and there wont make a difference, but this applies only to Indian side, when we wask them to reduce the same amount, the guys take it personally as if we asked for his kidney.

The french want to somehow want to potray that each plane, 4th or 5th Gen is either too expensive, or useless or some other flaw and the most perfect plane as per them is Rafail.

F-35 has a lot of new technology and much better in some case than the Rafail., The Rafail heavily depended on the over exaggerated SPECTRA,, funny as it seems Libyans were able to track Rafales even if they were using SPECTRA.. not really undetectable as they claim.

This stupidity will continue till the GoI officially throws out Rafale, and even after that they will be nagging like women about PAKFA and Super sukhoi upgrades..

First it is a totally shocking statement you make without any source.
without engine no company had done such a miraculous sale of fighter aircraft ever.
but lets assume you are true
so that f35 with engine and support systems it will be around same price of rafale with added 5th gen tag. And Rafale comes with 4th gen tag.
why would anyone save some money and buy 90s junk when you can have brand new latest technology.

 

[smestarz]

Since it is old news as per you, please do put few links pertaining to different deals of F-35 where the plane has apparently been sold WITHOUT ENGINES, and at the higher price.

Funny as may sound, but Dassault are charging premium for 10 years spares and maintenance package to India.
Did the french members not famosly say that Rafale is almost "maintenance free" What was it that the Rafale supporters aid about the maintenance?

Just to point out, Su-30 MKI which IAF has more than 200 has better availability rate than Rafale in terms of units and in terms of percentage.. The only reason for the bad maintenance was IAF top brass which were ordering spares when there was no spares.. and then the planes would be grounded due to shortage of spares

The F35 price was given without engine. It's not new. But I never said this marvelous flying brick will be selled without. But just add a couple of millions.
Don't be stupid with gen. It's only LM marketing (well done, it's true). LM itself said 5th gen is : stealthy, supercruise. F35 is not a super cruiser.... LM itself said F35 will have the F16 manoeuvrability. It hasn't.

 

[smestarz]

So in short, its stuck where it was stuck a few months ago !!
I think its best if the French have a nice vacation for a decade at least.

Defence Acquisition Council briefed about Rafale deal
The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) held its meeting here on Thursday and was briefed about the progress in the Rafale fighter jet deal by the committee negotiating its purchase, defence ministry sources said.

They said the DAC directed the committee to submit its report expeditiously.

The deal for purchasing 36 Rafale combat jets in fly-away condition was inked during Prime Minister Narendra Modi's visit to France last April.

A negotiating team was constituted to decide on the deal and is holding talks with the French side.

The price has been a major sticking point in the deal with India trying to bring it down for the fighter jet known to be one of the most expensive in the world.

The deal comes with a clause for delivering 50 per cent offsets, expected to generate business worth at least three billion euros for Indian companies.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...briefed-about-rafale-deal-116071401042_1.html