Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

NOT AT ALL. YOU LOVE EATING IT, AND I LOVE FEEDING IT TO YOU. BOTH HAPPY, NO?

You are not tired saying the same BS every week?

 

[gadeshi]

And while the Rafale argues continue...
A Contract for 46 MiG-29M2 for Egypt is confirmed in Klimov's branch documents:
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2014290.html

and here is a document itself - a stakeholders vote protocol to approve contract for 92 RD-33MK engines for RSK MiG:
http://www.avia500.ru/files/Otchet_ob_itogax_golosovania_2016.pdf

 

[BON PLAN]

And while the Rafale argues continue...
A Contract for 46 MiG-29M2 for Egypt is confirmed in Klimov's branch documents:
http://bmpd.livejournal.com/2014290.html

and here is a document itself - a stakeholders vote protocol to approve contract for 92 RD-33MK engines for RSK MiG:
http://www.avia500.ru/files/Otchet_ob_itogax_golosovania_2016.pdf

It was the famous order for 50 Mig 35 we spoke about next year.
50 mig 35 becaming 46 Mig 29....

Wait some months. It seem 12 more Rafale will be added for Egypt.

 

[gadeshi]

It was the famous order for 50 Mig 35 we spoke about next year.
50 mig 35 becaming 46 Mig 29....
Wait some months. It seem 12 more Rafale will be added for Egypt.

How can MiG-35 be ready for export if it has no export certificate for now?
The first prototype for VKS will conduct its maiden flight this autumn, then the other 2 or 3 ones (3 MiG-35 and 2 MiG-35D tween seaters) will be built, then tested until Y 2019 begins.
And only then MiG-35 will be accepted by VKS as MiG-35S and MiG-35SD (Serial and Serial Double seater).
Then MiG-35S/SD will get export sertificate as MiG-35SE/SDE.

So, I don't know what MiG-35 for Egypt could you discuss, but the only option possible is a mix of MiG-29M(single seaters) and M2 (tween-seaters) for now.

So, according to a numbers (46 planes is too small, 2 planes are in production now on Sokol plant) we can talk about 4 12-planes squadrons (10 MiG-29M single seaters + 2 MiG-29M2 tween seaters each).

 

[BON PLAN]

How can MiG-35 be ready for export if it has no export certificate for now?
The first prototype for VKS will conduct its maiden flight this autumn, then the other 2 or 3 ones (3 MiG-35 and 2 MiG-35D tween seaters) will be built, then tested until Y 2019 begins.
And only then MiG-35 will be accepted by VKS as MiG-35S and MiG-35SD (Serial and Serial Double seater).
Then MiG-35S/SD will get export sertificate as MiG-35SE/SDE.

So, I don't know what MiG-35 for Egypt could you discuss, but the only option possible is a mix of MiG-29M(single seaters) and M2 (tween-seaters) for now.

So, according to a numbers (46 planes is too small, 2 planes are in production now on Sokol plant) we can talk about 4 12-planes squadrons (10 MiG-29M single seaters + 2 MiG-29M2 tween seaters each).

A lot of russian planes lovers were speaking about it last year (for Egypte and for MMRCA substitute). Not me, you imagine without effort...

You give us a confirmation : it is not ready.

 

[Immanuel]

$111 million (if it's true) = dry price, ie without support. It's like when you buy a car : there is some lubricant in the motor, air in the tires, but no fuel, no beer in the chest, no road map.

in same condition Rafale costs 80 millions euro = 72 $ millions.

Rafale's unit cost for India based on the €7.89 or $8.7 billion figure being quoted including 30% in offsets, some basic scredriver tech (if at all), support and weapons comes down to $241 or €217 milion. I am willing to bet a similar F-35 package will be cheaper. By the way how is 80 million Euro only 72 million dollars. No Rafale has ever been exported for a price of 80 million, realistic estimates are well over 140 million.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale's unit cost for India based on the €7.89 or $8.7 billion figure being quoted including 30% in offsets, some basic scredriver tech (if at all), support and weapons comes down to $241 or €217 milion. I am willing to bet a similar F-35 package will be cheaper. By the way how is 80 million Euro only 72 million dollars. No Rafale has ever been exported for a price of 80 million, realistic estimates are well over 140 million.

It is 50% offset.
There is a huge effort in training, support, airfield base adaptation.

Stop saying without proof F35 is cheaper. It is not.

 

[harsh]

India wants additional discount from France in Rafale fighter jet deal

India is pushing for a final discount of nearly 1,50,000 Euros in the much-anticipated Rafale fighter jet deal with France even after successfully bringing down the price by nearly two billion Euros. The French side, however, is adamant on the price it had offered way back in April which comes to about 7.89 billion Euros for the 36 fighter jets in fly away conditions, defence sources said.The price was brought down from nearly 10 billion Euros, as sought initially, due to various reasons, including the discount offered by the French government and reworking of some of the criteria. The Indian side is now directly negotiating with the French Embassy here rather than the negotiating team, which used to fly down from Paris, as talks are more focussed on price rather than other areas. “There is a limit till which France can really come down to,” a defence source said, adding that the deal is finally set to be inked. Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar has made it clear that he will bargain for discount to get the best deal for the aircraft which will come as a boost to the depleting strength of the Indian Air Force. The deal will be signed once the file moves from the Defence Ministry to the Finance and then to the Cabinet Committee on Security. The deal is unlikely to face bureaucratic delay as the government is keen on getting the fighter jets for IAF. The deal comes with the clause of delivering 50 per cent offsets, creating business worth at least 3 billion Euros for smaller Indian companies and creating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets. The toughest phase in the negotiations that began in July 2015 three months after Prime Minister Modi announced in Paris India’s plan to purchase 36 Rafale jets was to get France to agree to 50 per cent offsets in the deal. Initially, Dassault Aviation, the maker of the combat planes, was willing to agree to reinvest only 30 per cent of the value of its contract in Indian entities to meet the offset obligations. The French side finally agreed to invest 50 per cent of the value following a phone conversation between Modi and French President Francois Hollande late last year. France has offered to help India revive the unsuccessful Kaveri engine project for indigenous Tejas aircraft and in a host of other high-end collaboration as part of the offsets in the deal. The French side has made a 30 per cent offset commitment for military aerospace research and development programmes and the rest 20 per cent for making components of Rafales here. The offsets will be carried out by French companies Safran, Thales, MBDA and Dassault, all part of the Rafale project.

http://idrw.org/india-wants-additional-discount-france-rafale-fighter-jet-deal/ .

 

[harsh]

Now the situation is really funny. Sometimes I pity on franch negotiation team. They keep reducing the price and india is not willing to take the offer. Every move is going in vain. If this go on for another 2 years then france ask to take rafale for free india will ask for money have these omnirole but not fit for any role rafail planes

 

[Zebra]

https://www.f35.com/about/fast-facts/cost

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/07/11/lockheed-martin-ceo-price-of-f-35-jets-down-57-percent.html

Rafale's unit cost for India based on the €7.89 or $8.7 billion figure being quoted including 30% in offsets, some basic scredriver tech (if at all), support and weapons comes down to $241 or €217 milion. I am willing to bet a similar F-35 package will be cheaper. By the way how is 80 million Euro only 72 million dollars. No Rafale has ever been exported for a price of 80 million, realistic estimates are well over 140 million.

 

[Zebra]

Rafales are not cheap.
And that is why only 36 are enough. At-least for now.
What say ......!

 

[Immanuel]

It is 50% offset.
There is a huge effort in training, support, airfield base adaptation.

Stop saying without proof F35 is cheaper. It is not.

Sure, training, support & adaptations are needed all types. F-35 will under cut most most Western competitors on price, technology & overall capability.

 

[BON PLAN]

Now the situation is really funny. Sometimes I pity on franch negotiation team. They keep reducing the price and india is not willing to take the offer. Every move is going in vain. If this go on for another 2 years then france ask to take rafale for free india will ask for money have these omnirole but not fit for any role rafail planes

This is a silly comment. Sorry to say that.
France GDP is nearly 2800 € billions. These 7 or 8 billions are not vital for us. We will not make another effort. All is on the table. You take it or you leave it. A proof? DA delegation is no more in India.

 

[BON PLAN]

Sure, training, support & adaptations are needed all types. F-35 will under cut most most Western competitors on price, technology & overall capability.

First you even are not aware offset is 50% and not 30% as you say. you really are misinformed on the subject.

F35 is not truly induced. It break the neck of the smaller pilot. ALIS doesn't run. The engine takes fire and is to be de rated to avoid this. GB, Italy, Netherlands, Denmark are cutting orders. Canada will prefer SH18....

Please compare the two when the two will be equally potent. For the moment the F35 is a poor an low impressiv aeroclub plane.

 

[salute]

This is a silly comment. Sorry to say that.
France GDP is nearly 2800 € billions. These 7 or 8 billions are not vital for us. We will not make another effort. All is on the table. You take it or you leave it. A proof? DA delegation is no more in India.

not vital for country as a whole but for dassault must be .

 

[harsh]

This is a silly comment. Sorry to say that.
France GDP is nearly 2800 € billions. These 7 or 8 billions are not vital for us. We will not make another effort. All is on the table. You take it or you leave it. A proof? DA delegation is no more in India.

I can understand your situation . Your are really in a tight corner to defend the falling franch economy and also the tight spot of rafale where export orders rafail got are less than 25
And only chance get bigger order is just 36 in india .

just forget to compete the world in fighter planes rafale is 3rd in Europe after eurofighter typhoon and gripen.
Really I can understand the political pressure made by British and germans but franch are defeated by Sweden. Thats a shame.

GDP....... last time I check france is going down. Still in economic crisis. Unemployment is increasing. Nothing favourable.

You know france is in top 5 super powers. And the insult is isis choose you attack 3 times in last 18 months and you do nothing.
Top news of the day
emergency in france is now extended to 3 more months.

Your helpless plane is not even bombing on right places.

Okkkk enough for you just talk about your situation in mmrca
you win for 126 but modi gives you just 36 even at a reduced price. You are happy like you win the world.
Then negotiations start
first you come to 12 billion.
Modi say no
then you come on 10 billion take and
Go.
modi said go.
You come back and say 8.9 billions.
modi said hush.
you again come back at 7.8 billions.
Now again we say come down or go.

you can say it is a bargain.
Every body will agree you are loosing in bargaining.

I say modi is insulting you just because you get this order with your courrupt ways.

You can take it either way. At last only india wins.
either we this corrupt deal is closed or we get these rafales on a really cheap price.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Now the situation is really funny. Sometimes I pity on franch negotiation team. They keep reducing the price and india is not willing to take the offer. Every move is going in vain. If this go on for another 2 years then france ask to take rafale for free india will ask for money have these omnirole but not fit for any role rafail planes

It is foolish to say french have reduced their price

They have not

They removed deal component with price reduction

I.e. 10b dollars for 36 rafales + weapons + infra + training + 10 yrs maintainance

Then 9b dollars for 36 rafales + training+ 5 yr maintainance

S for price reduction of 1 b dollars they have removed weapons + reduced maintainance by 5 years and 1 base infra instead of 2 base infra

So tell me where is price reduction ?

Actually they have increased the price

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

This is a silly comment. Sorry to say that.
France GDP is nearly 2800 € billions. These 7 or 8 billions are not vital for us. We will not make another effort. All is on the table. You take it or you leave it. A proof? DA delegation is no more in India.

This being a g2g deal da delegates are not required to be in India

Only french ambassador or french govt representative are required to negotiate

 

[harsh]

It is foolish to say french have reduced their price

They have not

They removed deal component with price reduction

I.e. 10b dollars for 36 rafales + weapons + infra + training + 10 yrs maintainance

Then 9b dollars for 36 rafales + training+ 5 yr maintainance

S for price reduction of 1 b dollars they have removed weapons + reduced maintainance by 5 years and 1 base infra instead of 2 base infra

So tell me where is price reduction ?

Actually they have increased the price

Man you know really inside........... are you
In the negotiations team.....
but
Okkk you can take this way
thats why modi is giving them only signal
That is red
france is waiting. ....... from 2 years
they are still waiting. ......
on this price they will wait forever

it is foolish to be a franch....... they never understand that we are not interested in more than 36.
and for those 36 they should make some offer that is irresistible to us.

 

[BON PLAN]

not vital for country as a whole but for dassault must be .

Even not.
Dassault has already exported 48 planes, with 2x12 on option to be released soon. UAE had promised to order 60 Rafale (2 or 3 batchs of 30 or 20 each). The Indian order is not vital, but will be appreciate.