Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sam Biswas]

We ll talk again about F-35 when it is ready for combat .. that is what I said " as of today". Rafale will leap forward too. Count on it .

You are fantasizing a lot. Rafale is a joke to squeeze billions out of gullible countries like Egypt, Qatar, and maybe India!

 

[smestarz]

Precisely that what it will lead to if India purchases Rafale..

 

[smestarz]

You are fantasizing a lot. Rafale is a joke to squeeze billions out of gullible countries like Egypt, Qatar, and maybe India!

And these are the countries which are unlikey to get any 5th Gen plane at least for the next 2 decadss (except India) so they better try to get a good 4th gen plane that is offered.

 

[Rahul Singh]

We ll talk again about F-35 when it is ready for combat .. that is what I said " as of today". Rafale will leap forward too. Count on it .

As of now F-35 has internal weapon bays and lo rcs shaping, once fully developed it will have integrated EW. Its potential is way higher than any 4th gen fighter. Thats the point.

Rafale will leap forward. Sure it will. But what is the highest potential?It surely can not have internal bays, that's one minus. And since we are talking in Indian case how much it will cost for those upgrades that will become a requirement even before 1st squardon gets fully operation. Where is the justification for money that will be spent in first place.

In fact what i feel is that prominent and influential citizens should convey their concerns to PM regarding viability of this deal vis-i-vis threat senario and money to be spent on it.

 

[Tactical Frog]

As of now F-35 has internal weapon bays and lo rcs shaping, once fully developed it will have integrated EW. Its potential is way higher than any 4th gen fighter. Thats the point.

Rafale will leap forward. Sure it will. But what is the highest potential?It surely can not have internal bays, that's one minus. And since we are talking in Indian case how much it will cost for those upgrades that will become a requirement even before 1st squardon gets fully operation. Where is the justification for money that will be spent in first place.

In fact what i feel is that prominent and influential citizens should convey their concerns to PM regarding viability of this deal vis-i-vis threat senario and money to be spent on it.

I don' t think that the USAF shares Lockheed's optimistic claims about the massive superiority that F-35 would supposedly enjoy over 4.5 th generation planes . Correct me if I am wrong but the USAF stand is that F-22 will clear the skies for F-35 .

I understand your concerns about the good use of taxpayers rupees ! So little is known about the ongoing negotiations, it is frustrating. Future upgrades are certainly under discussion.

 

[Tactical Frog]

You are fantasizing a lot. Rafale is a joke to squeeze billions out of gullible countries like Egypt, Qatar, and maybe India!

Said the same guy who is pushing for F-16 and F/A 18 SH , shamelessly abusing gullible Indians !

 

[Tactical Frog]

Good to hear that from Parrikar !

 

[asianobserve]

(On a wet dream scenario that Rafale will square off with F-35s) Rafale will have a hard time fighting F-35 on A-A combat.

In BVR the F-35 will see Rafale first long before Rafale sees it. Note that F-35 has formidable sensors and EW suite plus it is a 5th gen LO fighter while Rafale will light up on radar due to it being a flying Christmas tree saddled with external stores.

Then on WVR F-35s sensors fusion on its VSI helmet will render nugatory whatever marginal maneuvering advantage Rafale has (which should not be much since Rafale always carries its weapons externally imposing severe drag while F-35 can fight clean without external stores). I don't think any aircraft can outmaneuver F-35s short range weapon the AIM-9x blck 2.

 

[su35]

(On a wet dream scenario that Rafale will square off with F-35s) Rafale will have a hard time fighting F-35 on A-A combat.

In BVR the F-35 will see Rafale first long before Rafale sees it. Note that F-35 has formidable sensors and EW suite plus it is a 5th gen LO fighter while Rafale will light up on radar due to it being a flying Christmas tree saddled with external stores.

Then on WVR F-35s sensors fusion on its VSI helmet will render nugatory whatever marginal maneuvering advantage Rafale has (which should not be much since Rafale always carries its weapons externally imposing severe drag while F-35 can fight clean without external stores). I don't think any aircraft can outmaneuver F-35s short range weapon the AIM-9x blck 2.

Think of BVR fight is really very unrealistic, they can change within matter of second. Yes f 35 will see rafale first and can fire upon it, but there is not guarentte that AIM 120 will hit rafale every time. Rafale also come with ECM and decoy dispenser. American usually propagate BVR fighting as they cannot defeat russian aircrafts maneuver. BVR fighting is still a child most of the kills come from the dogfights. I think Flankers have chances to defeat AIM 9x

 

[asianobserve]

Think of BVR fight is really very unrealistic, they can change within matter of second. Yes f 35 will see rafale first and can fire upon it, but there is not guarentte that AIM 120 will hit rafale every time. Rafale also come with ECM and decoy dispenser. American usually propagate BVR fighting as they cannot defeat russian aircrafts maneuver. BVR fighting is still a child most of the kills come from the dogfights. I think Flankers have chances to defeat AIM 9x

This Russian aircraft maneuvering hype has been pushed too far. Can you mention when a Russian fighter has shot down an American fighter in recent combat?

 

[sasum]

BVR fighting is still a child most of the kills come from the dogfights.

When did the last kill come from dogfight?
In 1988? Now-a-days most kills come from missiles.

 

[asianobserve]

This is an interesting read on trends of air-to-air combat based on a study by CSBA: file:///C:/Users/MICHAEL%20PC/Downloads/Air-to-Air-Report-.pdf

The most notable observations on BVR and WVR combats:

Over the past two decades, the majority of aerial victories have been the result of BVR engagements where the victor almost always possessed advantages in sensor and weapon range and usually superior support from “offboard information sources” such as GCI radar operators or their airborne counterparts in Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS) aircraft.

As previously mentioned, however, short-range maneuvering combat was rare during Desert Storm, and most engagements began with weapons fired before sighting enemy aircraft.

Prospects for Short-Range Combat

Chapter 2 discussed the significant advances in short-range IR missile capabilities during the 1970s and 1980s. These advances have continued over the past two decades. The most modern IR missiles are capable of being cued by Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (HMCS) and turned toward the designated target and locked on after launch. Many also feature thrust vector control, which bestows extreme maneuverability, and imaging focal plane array IR seekers that recognize and home in on target aircraft images rather than simple heat sources. These missiles allow pilots to launch highly lethal IR missiles at any opponent they can see, even if that opponent is behind them. With an increasing number of modern combat aircraft equipped with missile-approach warning systems, it is likely that a pilot under attack will have sufficient time to target an attacker and launch a missile in return. Once both aircraft have “launch and leave” missiles in the air, prospects are good that the short-range engagement will result in “mutual kills,” with short-range combat kill ratios near 1:1. This suggests we may have reached a point in the development of short-range air combat technologies where serious, capable adversaries will attempt to avoid it and instead seek advantage in superior BVR capabilities.

 

[asianobserve]

Another important observation on Gulf War air combats that should be considered in buying frontline fighters that are intended to serve well into 2040s...

An examination of First Gulf War aerial engagements, however, suggests that, even twenty years ago, advances in sensors, weapons, and networks had greatly decreased the prevalence of maneuvering air combat and with it the value of fighter maneuverability. The proliferation of highly agile “dogfight” missiles, such as the Russian AA-11 and the AIM-9X with thrust vector control and the ability to lock on to targets after launch, along with HMCS, has further reduced the need for maneuvering into firing position even in relatively rare visual range encounters.

 

[Tactical Frog]

When did the last kill come from dogfight?
In 1988? Now-a-days most kills come from missiles.

Good . Rafale can carry 6 Mica in air combat missions. Or two Meteor and 4 Mica . That is a hell of firepower .

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

This Russian aircraft maneuvering hype has been pushed too far. Can you mention when a Russian fighter has shot down an American fighter in recent combat?

Can you mention other way around ?

 

[asianobserve]

Good . Rafale can carry 6 Mica in air combat missions. Or two Meteor and 4 Mica . That is a hell of firepower .

F-18E/F can carry up to 12 AMRAAMS plus 2 AIM-9x.

 

[sasum]

Another important observation on Gulf War air combats that should be considered in buying frontline fighters that are intended to serve well into 2040s...

Dogfight is actually a WW II hangover, when pilots executed incredible stunts to wow both professionals and plebians. Now-a-days those fancy maneuvers are reserved for Airshows and Ceremonial fly-pasts; and has little role to play in actual combats.
As for Rafale, it is good in its class. Only weakness -- it is starved of raw power. Even without extra fuel and just 4 missiles, Rafael's T/W ratio is 0.98 (not good enough for vertical climb) and some people say high computing SPECTRA may malfunction under humid Indian condition.

 

[Tactical Frog]

In BVR the F-35 will see Rafale first long before Rafale sees it. Note that F-35 has formidable sensors and EW suite plus it is a 5th gen LO fighter while Rafale will light up on radar due to it being a flying Christmas tree saddled with external stores.

Rafale has formidable sensors too ! especially its OSF. Its external stores allow it to stay longer in the air. F-35 will run out of fuel first.

 

[Sam Biswas]

Said the same guy who is pushing for F-16 and F/A 18 SH , shamelessly abusing gullible Indians !

I am not pushing anything. Aren't you slightly ashamed that India with billions of dollars in hand could not buy few squadron of fighter jets in ten years? India or more precisely Indian administrators like very complex weird deals like "Rafale deal" in pie in the sky approach. Buying F/A-18E/F from Boeing and made in India would be a simple long term solution of India's fighter jet problem. Working with Boeing would be far easier than Dussault or Mig or Sukhoi provided Modiji can get TOT approval from the US Congress which is very likely. That is the only reason I support F/A-18 over the competitors.

 

[asianobserve]

Can you mention other way around ?

That's easy, Turkish F-16 shot down Russian Su-24 on Nov. 24, 2015. Previous to that, on Sept. 14, 2001, 2 Israeli F-15s shot down 2 Syrian Mig-29s. If you go back to Gulf War the statistics is really agonizingly lopsided with only 1 kill by Russian-made aircraft (Mig-25) against an American aircraft (F-18C) on January 17, 1991 by an R-40 BVR shot.