Know Your 'Rafale'

[sasum]

I am not pushing anything. Aren't you slightly ashamed that India with billions of dollars in hand could not buy few squadron of fighter jets in ten years? India or more precisely Indian administrators like very complex weird deals like "Rafale deal" in pie in the sky approach. Buying F/A-18E/F from Boeing and made in India would be a simple long term solution of India's fighter jet problem. Working with Boeing would be far easier than Dussault or Mig or Sukhoi provided Modiji can get TOT approval from the US Congress which is very likely. That is the only reason I support F/A-18 over the competitors.

I don't trust Americans. They impose sanctions at the drop of a hat. See how the arrogant US Admin now dealing with Pak with F-16 sale. What guarantee they will not do the same to India. And I doubt, US will keep its promise of supplying F-414 engines for all 200 units of Tejas to be made.
French and Russians are easier to work with.

 

[asianobserve]

Rafale has formidable sensors too ! especially its OSF. Its external stores allow it to stay longer in the air. F-35 will run out of fuel first.

You're trying to rationalize the inherent limitations of a 4th gen fighter versus 5th gen. Aerial refueling can take care of range. Note that the F-35 can carry internally up to 6 AMRAAMs.

 

[Bahamut]

When did the last kill come from dogfight?
In 1988? Now-a-days most kills come from missiles.

Atlantique incident in 1999

That's easy, Turkish F-16 shot down Russian Su-24 on Nov. 24, 2015. Previous to that, on Sept. 14, 2001, 2 Israeli F-15s shot down 2 Syrian Mig-29s. If you go back to Gulf War the statistics is really agonizingly lopsided with only 1 kill by Russian-made aircraft (Mig-25) against an American aircraft (F-18C) on January 17, 1991 by an R-40 BVR shot.

Su 24 kill was a sneak attack ,the Su 24 was not given any warning and was shoot even when it was in Syrian Airspace.The IAF has public said that their combat performance is due to their training not due to better aircraft .

Dogfight is actually a WW II hangover, when pilots executed incredible stunts to wow both professionals and plebians. Now-a-days those fancy maneuvers are reserved for Airshows and Ceremonial fly-pasts; and has little role to play in actual combats.

IFF technology is not perfect and due to jamming of Radar ,BVR combat is not possible unless you enjoy a huge technology over your enemy.

 

[asianobserve]

Su 24 kill was a sneak attack ,the Su 24 was not given any warning and was shoot even when it was in Syrian Airspace.The IAF has public said that their combat performance is due to their training not due to better aircraft .

That's a lot of excuses... Anyway, you please read the study I posted earlier about the Trend of Air-to-Air Combat, you'll learn a lot. Although the recommendation for the future force structure and strategy is not sexy.

 

[BON PLAN]

(On a wet dream scenario that Rafale will square off with F-35s) Rafale will have a hard time fighting F-35 on A-A combat.

In BVR the F-35 will see Rafale first long before Rafale sees it. Note that F-35 has formidable sensors and EW suite plus it is a 5th gen LO fighter while Rafale will light up on radar due to it being a flying Christmas tree saddled with external stores.

Then on WVR F-35s sensors fusion on its VSI helmet will render nugatory whatever marginal maneuvering advantage Rafale has (which should not be much since Rafale always carries its weapons externally imposing severe drag while F-35 can fight clean without external stores). I don't think any aircraft can outmaneuver F-35s short range weapon the AIM-9x blck 2.

For the moment F35 has shown nothing.
Why the F35 will see onother plane before? To see another plane from log distance it has to open its radar, so be visible far far away.
F35 is not sole to have sensor fusion. Swiss test reveal it is very efficient on Rafale.

F35 even without load is aerodynalicaly as a truck ! Rafale in AtoA config is nice.

 

[BON PLAN]

Think of BVR fight is really very unrealistic, they can change within matter of second. Yes f 35 will see rafale first and can fire upon it, but there is not guarentte that AIM 120 will hit rafale every time. Rafale also come with ECM and decoy dispenser. American usually propagate BVR fighting as they cannot defeat russian aircrafts maneuver. BVR fighting is still a child most of the kills come from the dogfights. I think Flankers have chances to defeat AIM 9x

AMRAAM pk is very slow.... 7% on all its life (exercise + real combat).

 

[BON PLAN]

When did the last kill come from dogfight?
In 1988? Now-a-days most kills come from missiles.

A dogfight don't systematicaly imply a canon, but also a missile shoot.

 

[BON PLAN]

Good . Rafale can carry 6 Mica in air combat missions. Or two Meteor and 4 Mica . That is a hell of firepower .

And even 8 AAM (without dual missile pylon...).
4 mica on wing tips + under the external of wings.
2 Meteor Under the external heavy points of wings.
2 meteor on each side of the body.
And 3 external tanks if needed.

 

[Bahamut]

That's a lot of excuses... Anyway, you please read the study I posted earlier about the Trend of Air-to-Air Combat, you'll learn a lot. Although the recommendation for the future force structure and strategy is not sexy.

There are a few points -
1.F 16 did not follow a Parallel flight in WVR .
2.Did not issue any Radio warning or fire warning shots.
WIKI
Analysts have noted that Turkey's warnings were issued on a dedicated mutually-agreed radio channel, which was the international Guard (emergency) channel (243.0 MHz), but the R-862M radio fitted to the Su-24M is not able to monitor this channel without optional equipment, which may not have been installed
3.It used AIM 9X lock after shoot capability to hide the launch.
Is this how you intercept a aircraft .No .This is how you intercept a aircraft-
1.Fly a parallel path in WVR.
2.Communicate to international Guard Channel
You can shoot down jet if -
1.It fly low or Supersonic and performance aggressive action
2.Attack the intercept aircraft
3.Carries on to penetrate the airspace.
Please tell me if this was a sneak attack or what?

 

[asianobserve]

For the moment F35 has shown nothing.
Why the F35 will see onother plane before? To see another plane from log distance it has to open its radar, so be visible far far away.
F35 is not sole to have sensor fusion. Swiss test reveal it is very efficient on Rafale.

F35 even without load is aerodynalicaly as a truck ! Rafale in AtoA config is nice.

F-35's AN/APG-81 does not have to be active to lock on to a target. It can do so passively against an enemy radar.

Anyway, this article below is something for you to ponder:

According to a calculation by a senior EADS radar expert, the Captor-E, which will use 1,426 T/R modules and is scheduled to be integrated onto the Eurofighter Typhoon in 2015, is capable of recognizing the F-35 at around 59 kilometers away.

He acknowledged that the chance is high for the F-35 to detect and fire missiles first against fourth-generation jets, such as the Eurofighter or Boeing’s F-15, but claimed that the latter are capable of dodging missiles and successfully counterattacking at such a long range.

His calculation shows that the F-35’s APG-81, which allegedly has 1,400 T/R modules, will be able to recognize the Eurofighter or semi-stealth fighter at 120 kilometers or farther based on the assumption both radars have the same capability.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/10/205_97236.html

The difference is on F-35's LO design (especially at frontal profiles). Granting that opposing aircrafts radars are of the same capability, a non or semi-stealthy 4th (or 4.5 however you want to call it) gen aircraft like Rafale can be detected at farther distances by F-35 while the Rafale can only detect F-35 at closer distance allowing the latter bigger time to aim and fire at Rafale.

 

[asianobserve]

There are a few points -
1.F 16 did not follow a Parallel flight in WVR .
2.Did not issue any Radio warning or fire warning shots.
WIKI
Analysts have noted that Turkey's warnings were issued on a dedicated mutually-agreed radio channel, which was the international Guard (emergency) channel (243.0 MHz), but the R-862M radio fitted to the Su-24M is not able to monitor this channel without optional equipment, which may not have been installed
3.It used AIM 9X lock after shoot capability to hide the launch.
Is this how you intercept a aircraft .No .This is how you intercept a aircraft-
1.Fly a parallel path in WVR.
2.Communicate to international Guard Channel
You can shoot down jet if -
1.It fly low or Supersonic and performance aggressive action
2.Attack the intercept aircraft
3.Carries on to penetrate the airspace.
Please tell me if this was a sneak attack or what?

That's a very long explanation for a shot down, which will always be a shot down regardless of how its made. Why did the Su-24 not maneuvered? But against a HOB-LOL AIM-9x the Su-24 does not stand a chance. Which is exactly what the study on Trends of Air-to-Air Combat has found out from an examination of the air-to-air combats from its genesis to the most current incidents. So even if it was your dream Flanker in place of Su-24 in Turkey it still would not have stood any chance against that Turkish AIM-9x.That means that the fight in modern air-to-air combat has already moved to the BVR.

Anyway, I can understand why you want to avoid discussing how Russian Mig29s have been consistently blown out of the sky by American fighters...

 

[sasum]

A dogfight don't systematicaly imply a canon, but also a missile shoot.

Oh! You are technically correct, but when two pilots are trying to get after each other within a few hundred feet, Canon is the usual weapon.

 

[sasum]

IFF technology is not perfect and due to jamming of Radar ,BVR combat is not possible unless you enjoy a huge technology over your enemy.

On an earlier spat with you on Raptor, I said, every electronic counter measure has a counter-counter measure. Will the proliferation of stealth technology, render radars useless? Will IRST make stealth obsolete ? Will DIRCM nullify IRST ?
And to tell you the truth, every Govt is aware that piloted fighter jets will pass into history in a decade. Missiles, UCAVs and to some extent DEW will rule the sky. Now for argument's sake you will say even UCAVs can be detected and shot down. But many times, even partially damaged UCAV can accomplish the mission. Moreover you don't risk the life of a pilot.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

That's easy, Turkish F-16 shot down Russian Su-24 on Nov. 24, 2015. Previous to that, on Sept. 14, 2001, 2 Israeli F-15s shot down 2 Syrian Mig-29s. If you go back to Gulf War the statistics is really agonizingly lopsided with only 1 kill by Russian-made aircraft (Mig-25) against an American aircraft (F-18C) on January 17, 1991 by an R-40 BVR shot.

We are talking about us shooting down Russian planes

Specifically

As it was.mentioned Russian shooting down us planes

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

For the moment F35 has shown nothing.
Why the F35 will see onother plane before? To see another plane from log distance it has to open its radar, so be visible far far away.
F35 is not sole to have sensor fusion. Swiss test reveal it is very efficient on Rafale.

F35 even without load is aerodynalicaly as a truck ! Rafale in AtoA config is nice.

The same applies to rafLe too when you say it has bigger radar with longer range vs Russian su30/

The rafale needs to switch on its radar

 

[Rahul Singh]

I don' t think that the USAF shares Lockheed's optimistic claims about the massive superiority that F-35 would supposedly enjoy over 4.5 th generation planes . Correct me if I am wrong but the USAF stand is that F-22 will clear the skies for F-35 .

See by quoting F-35 i am actually drawing a comparison between upcoming PLAAF fighters i.e J-20 and J-30s and IAF's new fighter which is rafale. Given there is difference of a generation among them, this decision does not sound wise when speaking of timing. Also since we are not manufecturing Rafales, future upgrades are gonna be expensive if not uncertain.

Not to forget that we are not oil run kingdom and a toy buying airforce. IAF has a 800 plus fighter sanctioned strength to maintain and it is tasked with protecting nation against a duo of a thug on west and nefarious mind on north-eastern streach. Here judicious use of money is imperative. There is no option of otherwise.

I understand your concerns about the good use of taxpayers rupees ! So little is known about the ongoing negotiations, it is frustrating. Future upgrades are certainly under discussion.

Eight years ago when i first started messaging on indian defence forums i was in school and now i am a tax payer. Then i was a staunch supporter of Rafale saying, how Rafale will rule sub-continent's sky, how SPECTRA falsifises RCS and how Rafale will eat PLAAF alive let alone PAF which won't even remain in sky. Besides these, it being french makes a much better than others, quoting Mirage 2000 experience that IAF has with it. In words of my school senior and a friend and an ex Mirage 2000 pilot(currently SU-30MKI's) "it's a beauty without comparison".

Now it is utterly frustrating to see how much world has moved on, except one. And that has reduced the significance that IAF wanted with new M-MRCAs. Something which is compelling people like me to question its relevance today.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Indeed we somehow went out of topic with this moot dogfight between F-35 and Rafale !
The real threat comes from Chinese newest jets. Do you think they will ever come close from F-35 and F-22 stealth tech ? I am a bit sceptical.

I am glad you were a Rafale supporter 8 years ago ! Very long wait for IAF . But the Rafale was constantly updated during all these years, so you are not getting the same plane in 2019 than you would have gotten in 2008 ...

Not having time to list all the upgrades / improvements right now but others can fulfill the blanks ... things like the amazing DDM NG introduced in 2013 , which is part of Spectra and has yet to be used at its maximum potential.

 

[BON PLAN]

Dogfight is actually a WW II hangover, when pilots executed incredible stunts to wow both professionals and plebians. Now-a-days those fancy maneuvers are reserved for Airshows and Ceremonial fly-pasts; and has little role to play in actual combats.
As for Rafale, it is good in its class. Only weakness -- it is starved of raw power. Even without extra fuel and just 4 missiles, Rafael's T/W ratio is 0.98 (not good enough for vertical climb) and some people say high computing SPECTRA may malfunction under humid Indian condition.

The allegation "Rafale is under powered" is false. It's a Rafale bashing campaign. With "only" 2x7.5T it smashed EF, F16, F18 ....
And just wait 2018, with 2x8.3tons .....

What you all don't understand is that in a high intensity war, the air will be saturated of electronic and conter electronic signals, and with a lot of friend or ennely planes in the air pilots will need to see the plane they are shooting on, to avoid friendly fire. So it will be a return to basics.

Before Vietnam US made the same kind of conclusion. To instal 20mm gun pod on F4 in urgency.

 

[BON PLAN]

You're trying to rationalize the inherent limitations of a 4th gen fighter versus 5th gen. Aerial refueling can take care of range. Note that the F-35 can carry internally up to 6 AMRAAMs.

??? I don't see 6 AMRAAM in a F35. A photo please?

 

[BON PLAN]

F-35's AN/APG-81 does not have to be active to lock on to a target. It can do so passively against an enemy radar.

Anyway, this article below is something for you to ponder:


http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2011/10/205_97236.html

The difference is on F-35's LO design (especially at frontal profiles). Granting that opposing aircrafts radars are of the same capability, a non or semi-stealthy 4th (or 4.5 however you want to call it) gen aircraft like Rafale can be detected at farther distances by F-35 while the Rafale can only detect F-35 at closer distance allowing the latter bigger time to aim and fire at Rafale.

Rafale don't need also to open its radar in the same condition.
And F35 is VLO only from front aspect. From rear or side.... it is very observable.