Know Your 'Rafale'

[Rahul Singh]

Indeed we somehow went out of topic with this moot dogfight between F-35 and Rafale !
The real threat comes from Chinese newest jets. Do you think they will ever come close from F-35 and F-22 stealth tech ? I am a bit sceptical.

I am also skeptical. But as it is said a smart adversary never underestimates its enemy. For that IAF will have to take PLAAF jets by face value. Then only it can train at its best and remain prepared for worst.

Underestimating J-20s will be a mistake. We don't know how much SU-35 technology Russians will part with chinese. Meagre numbers ordered itself is indicative of something. And i don't think engine is only point. It's certainly beyond that.

 

[asianobserve]

??? I don't see 6 AMRAAM in a F35. A photo please?

This is the block series for F-35:

 

[asianobserve]

Rafale don't need also to open its radar in the same condition.
And F35 is VLO only from front aspect. From rear or side.... it is very observable.

You read the statements of Captor-E project manager on F-35 radar detectability?

The F-35 is only less LO (at least as compared to F-22 which is an all aspect LO design) from the rear. The Rafale on the other hand is a flying Christmas tree.

 

[su35]

@asianobserve this thread is not for F 3f vs rafale, you can create another thread for that. No is underestimating F 35 stealth capability this one parameter does not make it superior against all aircraft. Even though I have forgetten the link there are some long range rader that can detech stealth aircraft. There were also some news about rafale defeating Raptor in Dogfight( Dogfight also include Missiles not only cannon)

 

[BON PLAN]

You read the statements of Captor-E project manager on F-35 radar detectability?

The F-35 is only less LO (at least as compared to F-22 which is an all aspect LO design) from the rear. The Rafale on the other hand is a flying Christmas tree.

"Front front aspect, Rafale has a sparrow signature" Bruno Revellin Falcoz, chief engineering of Dassault.
Same as F35, no?
And missiles and tanks from front : very stealthy also.

 

[asianobserve]

@asianobserve this thread is not for F 3f vs rafale, you can create another thread for that. No is underestimating F 35 stealth capability this one parameter does not make it superior against all aircraft. Even though I have forgetten the link there are some long range rader that can detech stealth aircraft. There were also some news about rafale defeating Raptor in Dogfight( Dogfight also include Missiles not only cannon)

I did not bring out F-35 in this thread. I am merely trying to counter inaccuracies being peddled in support of Rafale. But I will cease discussing more about F-35 here since i think I have made it sufficiently clear that it's a very long stretch to put Rafale on level with 5th gen F-35.

LO brings F-35 on a different level with 4th gen fighters. As explained by Captor-E engineer the LO design of F-35 will give the opposing 4th gen fighter (granting they have the same radar) shorter detection range than the F-35. That does not include the vastly superior and integrated active and passive sensors it can bear on its adversaries.

Re F-22, even SH was able to defeat it. But bear in mind that Rafale's alleged mock dogfight victory against F-22 was WVR were F-22 has serious shortcomings due to absence of HMCS and HOBS missile (it's not yet certified for AIM 9x). But this far and in between victories against F-22 must be put into perspective, the ratio of kills is very high in favor of F-22 and the kills against F-22 were achieved in in regions were F-22 has serious disadvantage (F-22 will be updated to handle HOBS missiles and HMCS).

 

[asianobserve]

"Front front aspect, Rafale has a sparrow signature" Bruno Revellin Falcoz, chief engineering of Dassault.
Same as F35, no?
And missiles and tanks from front : very stealthy also.

Some known Radar Cross Sections:

RCS (m2)
automobile 100
B-52 100
B-1(A/B) 10
F-15 25
Su-27 15
Mig-21 3
F-16 5
F-16C 1.2
man 1
F-18 1
Rafale 1
Typhoon 0.5
Tomahawk SLCM 0.5
A-12/SR-71 0.01
bird 0.01
F-117 0.003
insect 0.001
F-35 0.001
F-22 0.0001
B-2 0.0001

 

[Tactical Frog]

Do you have a source for this or is it just some fantasy blog ?

 

[asianobserve]

Do you have a source for this or is it just some fantasy blog ?

I got the figures from Global Security. I changed the F-35 RCS since it was based on the JSF prototype. I updated it to reflect the well accepted RCS based on the figure from Ausairpower.

 

[Tactical Frog]

A sparrow is definitely not 1.0 sq m RCS. More like 0,1- 0,2 sq m

Looking at Typhoon huge air intakes it is really hard to believe it beats Rafale on RCS .

 

[sasum]

"Front front aspect, Rafale has a sparrow signature" Bruno Revellin Falcoz, chief engineering of Dassault.
Same as F35, no?
And missiles and tanks from front : very stealthy also.

You are trying too hard to push Rafale as a VLO/ Stealth fighter comparable to JSF. This is just surreal. Average RCS of different fighters as per Global Security.org given below:-
Plane RCS (m^2)

1. F-16C 1.2
2. Rafale 1
3. F-18 1
4. Eurofighter. 0.5
5. F-35 0.005
6. F-22 and B-2 0.0001

Now you see where Rafale stands.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Well. Your anglo-saxon sources clearly don't like Rafale ! My sparrow is too big at 0,1. Some french writers put it between 0,05 and 0,1 .. closer to 0,06.

 

[BON PLAN]

You are trying too hard to push Rafale as a VLO/ Stealth fighter comparable to JSF. This is just surreal. Average RCS of different fighters as per Global Security.org given below:-
Plane RCS (m^2)

1. F-16C 1.2
2. Rafale 1
3. F-18 1
4. Eurofighter. 0.5
5. F-35 0.005
6. F-22 and B-2 0.0001

Now you see where Rafale stands.

:blah::blah::blah:
F16C with its huge air intake without S duct only 20% more unstealthy than Rafale ???? excuse me Bro, it's BS.

Brazil during FX2 tests said Rafale was the most stealthier among competitors, including SH18. Not equal. Better.
And Rafale is world wide known as stealthier than EF.

 

[Bahamut]

Will DIRCM nullify IRST ?

DIRCM is used for IR guided missiles not IRST ,they are different thing .

Govt is aware that piloted fighter jets will pass into history in a decade. Missiles, UCAVs and to some extent DEW will rule the sky. Now for argument's sake you will say even UCAVs can be detected and shot down. But many times, even partially damaged UCAV can accomplish the mission. Moreover you don't risk the life of a pilot.

Sir ,for this AI is still not advance enough plus there is debate that how will AI think and act on its ?

Why did the Su-24 not maneuvered?

Su 24 was not caring any self defense or jamming pod it was just caring bombs

That means that the fight in modern air-to-air combat has already moved to the BVR.

Aim 9X is a WVR missile not a BVR missile

So even if it was your dream Flanker in place of Su-24 in Turkey it still would not have stood any chance against that Turkish AIM-9x.

It depend on which Flanker variant, Su 35 ,Su 30SM and Su 34 have a very advance EW and that why Turkey avoided it.As for Su 27SM2 ,I do not have much .@gadeshi can give you more info

 

[asianobserve]

Well. Your anglo-saxon sources clearly don't like Rafale ! My sparrow is too big at 0,1. Some french writers put it between 0,05 and 0,1 .. closer to 0,06.

Note that the Super Hornet which is the closest to 5th gen in terns of LO design features has an RCS of only 0.1.

 

[sasum]

F16C with its huge air intake without S duct only 20% more unstealthy than Rafale ???? excuse me Bro, it's

This is Falcon's air inlet duct. Can you see any fan blade to reflect RF signal ?

Brazil during FX2 tests said Rafale was the most stealthier among competitors, including SH18. Not equal. Better.
And Rafale is world wide known as stealthier than EF.

How much did you pay Brazilians to give a +ve certificate?

 

[asianobserve]

Su 24 was not caring any self defense or jamming pod it was just caring bombs

Okay, we can excuse the Su-24 since it is not a pure fighter. But there is no excuse for the numerous Mig-29s that were show down.

Aim 9X is a WVR missile not a BVR missile

Exactly my point. With Aim 9x and its analogues it is almost impossible nowadays for fighters to survive in WVR combat against an opponent that is also armed with comparable short range missile. That's why based on teh study I cited air combat has now moved to BVR.

It depend on which Flanker variant, Su 35 ,Su 30SM and Su 34 have a very advance EW and that why Turkey avoided it.As for Su 27SM2 ,I do not have much .@gadeshi can give you more info

No Flanker would have stood a chance against the AIM-9X Blk 2 that was fired at that poor Su-24.

 

[sasum]

DIRCM is used for IR guided missiles not IRST ,they are different thing .

DIRCM is IR jammer, usually by laser for its warmth. So it can render ineffective IRST also. And what is IR guided missile? It is just a missile with built-in IRST.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Note that the Super Hornet which is the closest to 5th gen in terns of LO design features has an RCS of only 0.1.

There is no official independent body in charge of running tests to calculate RCS . So we rely on data released by companies, or estimates by semi-authorized sources. Dassault has not released any figure. Seems that Lockheed and Boeing are more communicative ?

 

[Bahamut]

With Aim 9x and its analogues it is almost impossible nowadays for fighters to survive in WVR combat against an opponent that is also armed with comparable short range missile.

Depends on the pilot and defensive kit ,I cannot see it taking a jet pulling a 9g turn with TVC .Any missile can be defeated by a good pilot .

But there is no excuse for the numerous Mig-29s that were show down.

The same plane in the hands of IAF and previously the German AF proved to be formidable opponent .It is the pilot that matter more then the plane .

DIRCM is IR jammer, usually by laser for its warmth. So it can render ineffective IRST also. And what is IR guided missile? It is just a missile with built-in IRST.

IRST is access to more computing power plus it get info from other sensors plus it more it has more wider spectrum and hence is more difficult to jam.