Know Your 'Rafale'

Zebra

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Source please. First time I read or heard such a news.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition#Tender_history


* ..............It was reported in April 2009 that Dassault Aviation's Rafale has been rejected after technical evaluation of the fighters. However, this has been disputed by IAF. In late May 2009 Times of India has reported that Dassault Aviation has submitted the missing answers to the General Staff Qualitative Requirements drawn up by the IAF, and after serious diplomatic intervention, they are back in the race...................


* ...................The Gripen was the last of the aircraft to be evaluated by the IAF. On 22 March, two Gripens left Bangalore, one to
Jaisalmer and the other to Leh, Ladakh. At Jaisalmer AFS, a Gripen would undertake the hot weather trials and also a dummy run and bomb drop at the Pokhran Firing Range. The other Gripen headed towards Leh, would perform high altitude tests involving landing, refueling and restarting engines. Prior to the Gripen, 4 out of the 5 aircraft had issues restarting their engines during trials conducted in Leh. The Gripen completed its high altitude tests in Leh and other hot weather tests.....................

 
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BON PLAN

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_MRCA_competition#Tender_history


* ..............It was reported in April 2009 that Dassault Aviation's Rafale has been rejected after technical evaluation of the fighters. However, this has been disputed by IAF. In late May 2009 Times of India has reported that Dassault Aviation has submitted the missing answers to the General Staff Qualitative Requirements drawn up by the IAF, and after serious diplomatic intervention, they are back in the race...................


* ...................The Gripen was the last of the aircraft to be evaluated by the IAF. On 22 March, two Gripens left Bangalore, one to
Jaisalmer and the other to Leh, Ladakh. At Jaisalmer AFS, a Gripen would undertake the hot weather trials and also a dummy run and bomb drop at the Pokhran Firing Range. The other Gripen headed towards Leh, would perform high altitude tests involving landing, refueling and restarting engines. Prior to the Gripen, 4 out of the 5 aircraft had issues restarting their engines during trials conducted in Leh. The Gripen completed its high altitude tests in Leh and other hot weather tests.....................
Thanks ! :)
 

garg_bharat

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YOU WILL NEVER HAVE ACCESS TO ALL ENGINE TECH. FROM US, RUSSIAN OR FRENCH PARTNER. It's too sensitiv.
You have to built yourself an indigen technology.
I think India does have Russian engine tech. India did build a lot of Russian fighter engines. Roughly 70% of Su30 engine is built in India. The rest 30% comes from Russia. This % is no different from locally designed Kavery engine.

I think the bigger issue is efficiency and productivity of companies engaged in aviation manufacture in India. Hope participation of private sector grows steadily.
 

Yumdoot

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I think India does have Russian engine tech. India did build a lot of Russian fighter engines. Roughly 70% of Su30 engine is built in India. The rest 30% comes from Russia. This % is no different from locally designed Kavery engine.

I think the bigger issue is efficiency and productivity of companies engaged in aviation manufacture in India. Hope participation of private sector grows steadily.

If people remember, there was an old story that Soviet scientists visited some western facility with special shoes meant to pick up metal chips etc. Well we are far ahead of that situation.


https://bharatkarnad.com/2016/04/23/how-choices-get-made-develop-indigenous-vs-lisc-produce/

Russia, after being disappointed with India turning down offer to co-produce the FGFA Su-PAF FA engine, is now offering to collaborate with the GTRE (with experience of designing and developing the indigenous Kaveri engine for Tejas that attained 81KN on its testbed before it was abruptly ended) to design and develop an engine exactly to fit the redesigned Tejas Mk-2 to accommodate the larger 414 engine to meet the heightened performance standard of the GE 414 EPE (enhanced performance engine) able to produce 26,400 tons or 120 KN of thrust and a 11:1 thrust-weight ratio.
The Indian TVC meant for all or any engines of similar type, is definitely now going to be based on Russian designs. Much of the compressor design capability has already been done in India and tested in Russia.
 

BON PLAN

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Rafale next aircraft to take up India’s Nuke Job ?
Published April 26, 2016
SOURCE: Anand SG / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG



French air force Rafale seen above armed with Nuclear capable ASMP-A Cruise missile

India and France are on the final lap of negotiations and close to an agreement to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets. 36 Rafale fighters will make up barely two Squadrons in Indian Air Force While IAF wants to further expand Rafale fleet to 60 aircraft but MOD now seems to be more interested in Making in India American F-16 or F-18 fighter jet in locally then procure more French-built Rafale Omni role fighter jet .

Can Two Squadron of French Rafale fighter jets change the outcome of a war ? Not really but Rafale fighter jet might still play a vital role in India’s deterrence capabilities and might be next designated aircraft which will be tasked to deliver a nuclear weapon when needed .

At Present Mirage-2000 are the first go to aircraft by India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) who are responsible for the management and administration of the country’s tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile other second lines of designated aircraft are Jaguars and Sukhoi-30 MKI in Indian Air Force fleet , Rafale most likely will supersede Mirage-2000s since French Company never shyied away in mentioning Rafale fighter jet has Nuclear Capable fighter jet in its bid documents for MMRCA Tenders and never objected in past for modifying French Mirage-2000s to carry nuclear weapons designed by India .

Interestingly in 2010 Strategic Forces Command had submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up of two dedicated squadrons (40 nos) of fighter aircraft which will act as a mini-Air Force ,separately from Indian Air Force and will be dedicated Nuke delivery platform for SFC .

India most likely will receive Rafale fighter jets minus Nuclear air-launched cruise missile Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP) currently been used by France to deliver singular variable yield ‘TN 81’ Nuke warhead . India is working on lighter Mach 3 capable Brahmos-NG with a range of 290km to be later modified to carry smaller nuclear warhead for similar roles in near future and plans are to adapt it to other fighter jets like Mirage-2000, Mig-29 and even Rafale Fighter jets.
 

sasum

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If anyone wants to know when the deal is signed, then ask after the next elections in 2019
If not totally dead, Rafale is definitely into cold-storage. May remain so till 2019 General Election. If a non-BJP coalition comes into power, may be the original proposal of 126 aircrafts will be resurrected.
 

smestarz

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There are already spanners in the works. Let us talk of Rafale after 10 years .. maybe

Rafale next aircraft to take up India’s Nuke Job ?
Published April 26, 2016
SOURCE: Anand SG / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG



French air force Rafale seen above armed with Nuclear capable ASMP-A Cruise missile

India and France are on the final lap of negotiations and close to an agreement to sell 36 Rafale fighter jets. 36 Rafale fighters will make up barely two Squadrons in Indian Air Force While IAF wants to further expand Rafale fleet to 60 aircraft but MOD now seems to be more interested in Making in India American F-16 or F-18 fighter jet in locally then procure more French-built Rafale Omni role fighter jet .

Can Two Squadron of French Rafale fighter jets change the outcome of a war ? Not really but Rafale fighter jet might still play a vital role in India’s deterrence capabilities and might be next designated aircraft which will be tasked to deliver a nuclear weapon when needed .

At Present Mirage-2000 are the first go to aircraft by India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) who are responsible for the management and administration of the country’s tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile other second lines of designated aircraft are Jaguars and Sukhoi-30 MKI in Indian Air Force fleet , Rafale most likely will supersede Mirage-2000s since French Company never shyied away in mentioning Rafale fighter jet has Nuclear Capable fighter jet in its bid documents for MMRCA Tenders and never objected in past for modifying French Mirage-2000s to carry nuclear weapons designed by India .

Interestingly in 2010 Strategic Forces Command had submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up of two dedicated squadrons (40 nos) of fighter aircraft which will act as a mini-Air Force ,separately from Indian Air Force and will be dedicated Nuke delivery platform for SFC .

India most likely will receive Rafale fighter jets minus Nuclear air-launched cruise missile Air-Sol Moyenne Portée (ASMP) currently been used by France to deliver singular variable yield ‘TN 81’ Nuke warhead . India is working on lighter Mach 3 capable Brahmos-NG with a range of 290km to be later modified to carry smaller nuclear warhead for similar roles in near future and plans are to adapt it to other fighter jets like Mirage-2000, Mig-29 and even Rafale Fighter jets.
 

smestarz

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After talking with some right people and also seeing the discussions in parliament
there was some discusison abt Rafale where DM said that sometimes the press says such things that if the news is about a person then he is worried "did I really do this?" and he was talking in reference to NDTv "breaking news" that Rafale deal is close to be signed. His reply was the discussions are going on and the prices are still being negotiated and shall be reduced further. So he is non commital at best.

During UPA govt many deals were signed and VVIP was the one that stood out like a sore thumb, UPA had refused to conduct any enquiry citing there was no wrong doing, and now the Tyagi brothers and Khaitan are visiting CBI HQ each day. by this, SP Tyagi is already disgrced in the minds of the general population, and whatever respect Air force officers had that also seems to be going off. with people short of calling them as pimps.
When the top brass of Elite force such as IAF changes the ASQR to favour a particular company in interest of their political masters that shows how cheap IAF top brass has become. And India prided itself as a country where Military was independent of Political influence But these service chiefs now seem to be depending on the politicians for their advancement in services.

MMRCA is already gone. It might be difficult for anyone to revive it, and if revived then the entire deal as it comes would easily shoot cross US$ 50 bn and the ToT will be limited to Screw driver tech (not cutting tech)

If not totally dead, Rafale is definitely into cold-storage. May remain so till 2019 General Election. If a non-BJP coalition comes into power, may be the original proposal of 126 aircrafts will be resurrected.
 

WolfPack86

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Much Awaited Rafale Fighter Deal Delayed Again
Rafale deal Unlike in the US, there is no concept of foreign military sales in France, and the negotiations between the two countries has been going on and are expected to be concluded under an IGA, which is yet to be inked. (Reuters)
The much-awaited deal for 36 Rafale aircraft has run into legal and contractual hurdles because French company Dassault Aviation offered a ‘diluted’ liability clause, which has been rejected as India’s ministry of law & justice felt that it “adversely compromised” India’s interests.
The law ministry has also opposed accepting Geneva as the arbitration destination in the event of any dispute, wanting it to be replaced by Delhi, something that the French side has opposed.
Defence minister Manohar Parrikar, earlier this week, had said in a written reply in the Rajya Sabha, “The ministry of law & justice has made certain observations and the same will be adequately taken into account while finalising the IGA (inter-governmental agreement), which is still under negotiations”.
Because of the concerns raised by the law ministry, the negotiations between the two countries over the fighter jets has slowed down.
Unlike in the US, there is no concept of foreign military sales in France, and the negotiations between the two countries has been going on and are expected to be concluded under an IGA, which is yet to be inked. Thus, India has been negotiating for stringent financial liability agreements from the French company for the combat planes — which the French have not accepted yet.
Talking about the stringent agreements that India is seeking, Rahul Bedi of UK-based Jane’s Defense Weekly says, “The defence ministry insists that such an agreement — backed by bank guarantees — form part of the Rafale contract, as that would enable India to encash these in the event of delays in equipment delivery or platform performance, or both.”
“The ministry of law & justice has also objected to the ‘diluted’ liability clause, under negotiation for eventual inking by the French government, Dassault and possibly MBDA, the principal weapons provider, on grounds that it ‘adversely compromised’ India’s interests,” Bedi pointed out.
Sources in the ministry of defence (MoD) told FE, “We are still in the process of deciding whether there is a need to order all spare parts that the aircraft will need for a period of either five or 10 years. And negotiations are still on regarding what kind of financial penalties can be imposed on Dassault Aviation Company, which is making the combat plane, if the performance is unsatisfactory.”
According to sources, there has also been opposition to accepting Geneva as the arbitration destination in the event of any dispute, with a push for it to be replaced by New Delhi, something that the French side has opposed.
This is not the first time that the liability clause has come up. Even when discussions were going on for the 126 MMRCA, the liability clause was opposed by the French side, said sources.
Disagreement
A deal for 36 Rafale aircraft has run into legal and contractual hurdles because French company Dassault Aviation offered a ‘diluted’ liability clause, which has been rejected as India’s ministry of law & justice felt that it ‘adversely compromised’ India’s interests
The law ministry has also opposed accepting Geneva as the arbitration destination in the event of any dispute, wanting it to be replaced by Delhi, something that the French side has opposed.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/much-awaited-rafale-fighter-deal.html
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Much Awaited Rafale Fighter Deal Delayed Again
Rafale deal Unlike in the US, there is no concept of foreign military sales in France, and the negotiations between the two countries has been going on and are expected to be concluded under an IGA, which is yet to be inked. (Reuters)
The much-awaited deal for 36 Rafale aircraft has run into legal and contractual hurdles because French company Dassault Aviation offered a ‘diluted’ liability clause, which has been rejected as India’s ministry of law & justice felt that it “adversely compromised” India’s interests.
The law ministry has also opposed accepting Geneva as the arbitration destination in the event of any dispute, wanting it to be replaced by Delhi, something that the French side has opposed.
Defence minister Manohar Parrikar, earlier this week, had said in a written reply in the Rajya Sabha, “The ministry of law & justice has made certain observations and the same will be adequately taken into account while finalising the IGA (inter-governmental agreement), which is still under negotiations”.
Because of the concerns raised by the law ministry, the negotiations between the two countries over the fighter jets has slowed down.
Unlike in the US, there is no concept of foreign military sales in France, and the negotiations between the two countries has been going on and are expected to be concluded under an IGA, which is yet to be inked. Thus, India has been negotiating for stringent financial liability agreements from the French company for the combat planes — which the French have not accepted yet.
Talking about the stringent agreements that India is seeking, Rahul Bedi of UK-based Jane’s Defense Weekly says, “The defence ministry insists that such an agreement — backed by bank guarantees — form part of the Rafale contract, as that would enable India to encash these in the event of delays in equipment delivery or platform performance, or both.”
“The ministry of law & justice has also objected to the ‘diluted’ liability clause, under negotiation for eventual inking by the French government, Dassault and possibly MBDA, the principal weapons provider, on grounds that it ‘adversely compromised’ India’s interests,” Bedi pointed out.
Sources in the ministry of defence (MoD) told FE, “We are still in the process of deciding whether there is a need to order all spare parts that the aircraft will need for a period of either five or 10 years. And negotiations are still on regarding what kind of financial penalties can be imposed on Dassault Aviation Company, which is making the combat plane, if the performance is unsatisfactory.”
According to sources, there has also been opposition to accepting Geneva as the arbitration destination in the event of any dispute, with a push for it to be replaced by New Delhi, something that the French side has opposed.
This is not the first time that the liability clause has come up. Even when discussions were going on for the 126 MMRCA, the liability clause was opposed by the French side, said sources.
Disagreement
A deal for 36 Rafale aircraft has run into legal and contractual hurdles because French company Dassault Aviation offered a ‘diluted’ liability clause, which has been rejected as India’s ministry of law & justice felt that it ‘adversely compromised’ India’s interests
The law ministry has also opposed accepting Geneva as the arbitration destination in the event of any dispute, wanting it to be replaced by Delhi, something that the French side has opposed.
http://www.indiandefensenews.in/2016/05/much-awaited-rafale-fighter-deal.html

Do now unlike the desi dallal brigade here who were claiming iga has been signed

Now even Reuters reports that iga is yet to be signed
 

PaliwalWarrior

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Some desi dallal brigade were shouting that if you allege corruption in defence deals and accuse iaf officers of corruption you should go to court


Now see what is happening in vvip chopper scam also Pilatus may be opened

Pilatus may even not be opened but the govt saying that they may open Pilatus and mmrca files clearly sends out the message that the govt is warning to the opposition to get some bills passed

If not I hise files will be opened

The significance is that the underlying takeaway is that those deals are rotten

Only then govt can threaten with opening of those files
 

vishwaprasad

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Nobody here seems to understand that finally its us Indians who are running out of time, squadron strength which is a need of an hour today...

what is there to celebrate if Rafale deal is getting delayed?

even if in anti rafale ppl wildest dream if ever India decides to completely cancel Rafale and goes for F series US fighters believe me not a single F series jet is coming here before next 3-4 years of endless boring discussions and then random 3-4 years to finally sign the deal... given India's track record I can promise this....

Such a pathetic ppl sitting on defence and acting like guardians of this nation....
 
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smestarz

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Even if the deal is signed tomorrow, the first of Rafale (produced specifically as per Indian specs) may not come before 2019. And 2 planes or even 6 is not really going to solve the issue of humbers that you are talking of.

Since you are talking of numbers, that can only be addressed by Tejas. With production expected to be say a squadron per year, by end of 2019 we should be getting a Squadron or plane inducted.

Further considering the price that is quoted for Rafale, we can buy abt 6 planes at cost of one Raale. so buy considering the Rafale is solution for numbers, that is solution for being bankrupted in best possible time.

Nobody here seems to understand that finally its us Indians who are running out of time, squadron strength which is a need of an hour today...

what is there to celebrate if Rafale deal is getting delayed?

even if in anti rafale ppl wildest dream if ever India decides to completely cancel Rafale and goes for F series US fighters believe me not a single F series jet is coming here before next 3-4 years of endless boring discussions and then random 3-4 years to finally sign the deal... given India's track record I can promise this....

Such a pathetic ppl sitting on defence and acting like guardians of this nation....
 

Bahamut

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Some desi dallal brigade were shouting that if you allege corruption in defence deals and accuse iaf officers of corruption you should go to court


Now see what is happening in vvip chopper scam also Pilatus may be opened

Pilatus may even not be opened but the govt saying that they may open Pilatus and mmrca files clearly sends out the message that the govt is warning to the opposition to get some bills passed

If not I hise files will be opened

The significance is that the underlying takeaway is that those deals are rotten

Only then govt can threaten with opening of those files
Rafale as good as it is is too expensive to make up the numbers and we are not getting a good ToT deal ,both of which are important
 

Zebra

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Nobody here seems to understand that finally its us Indians who are running out of time, squadron strength which is a need of an hour today...

what is there to celebrate if Rafale deal is getting delayed?

even if in anti rafale ppl wildest dream if ever India decides to completely cancel Rafale and goes for F series US fighters believe me not a single F series jet is coming here before next 3-4 years of endless boring discussions and then random 3-4 years to finally sign the deal... given India's track record I can promise this....

Such a pathetic ppl sitting on defence and acting like guardians of this nation....
:dude:

Sir, there are many people on DFI, who said those types of words (check the red color parts), even in 2011.

And I saw it on DFI. Trust me.
 

Rahul Singh

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Wow, France at war with USA ? you should write sci-fi books ! maybe about cheese .. a cheese war.
Ha Ha!....phew! ...Make it better next time. Could not laugh less.....Or May be you can answer the question, who will win among two sides; one with F-35 only or one with Rafale only? Get the point.

On a side note, I don't think that RAF choice in favour of F-35 A has much to do with great confidence in the jet. It is a much bigger picture, with Bae heavily involved in the F-35 B design and Royal Navy desperately pushing for F-35 C then B. I am sure RAF loves its Typhoon !
BAE's involvement in F-35 despite owning EF says a different story altogether. No?

Me liking.
 
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Tactical Frog

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Ha Ha!....phew! ...Make it better next time. Could not laugh less.....Or May be you can answer the question, who will win among two sides; one with F-35 only or one with Rafale only? Get the point.

BAE's involvement in F-35 despite owning EF says a different story altogether. No?

Me liking.
I have zero doubt that the Rafale would tear F-35 apart like a bug as of today :)

BAE bets on F-35 because they assumed there was more money to make with parts for F-35 program than with Typhoon. They are very greedy ! But maybe not so wise here.

Parrikar is not saying that the deal is stuck, far from it ... very misleading title from DeccanHerald.
 

Rahul Singh

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I have zero doubt that the Rafale would tear F-35 apart like a bug as of today :)
Care to explain how?

As far as i am concerned, i can see, F-35 has stealth(lo RCS) shaping (nose cone and all) and internal weapon bays; two clearly known advantages in air to air combat against a LO fighter which does not has these. Apart from these, F-35s also have integrated EW package completed with smart countermeasures, a next generation powerful AESA and equally potent BVRAAMs and WVRAAMs; which can be carried internally, as compared to Rafale, which can't. So in BVR AC F-35 has clear advantage over RAFALE.

In WVR combat F-35 does scores marginally low on TWR. But is it letting Rafale go past BVR combat with the advantages it enjoys?

BAE bets on F-35 because they assumed there was more money to make with parts for F-35 program than with Typhoon. They are very greedy ! But maybe not so wise here.
With two EF consortium participants buying F-35, "money making" point is highly unlikely and sounds far from truth.

A company could go for money, but will any air force too go blind when it means loosing money?

Parrikar is not saying that the deal is stuck, far from it ... very misleading title from DeccanHerald.
Indeed it is. But deal is not through yet (oh! i mean signed) despite PM throwing his personal weight on it. That speaks volume on difficulties it is at. Gone two more years (oh yes, highly likely, looking at the track record) when PLAAF starts inducting J-20s, this deal will lose any significance it might still be having.

10 years ago Rafale would have been an asset, everyone will agree. Six years ago, a need. Two years from now! WTF! PLAAF just inducted its J-20.

~ 10 billion USD for what? The cry will grow to its significance. Rightly so! And will be heard by everyone. Keep no doubt.
 

BON PLAN

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Further considering the price that is quoted for Rafale, we can buy abt 6 planes at cost of one Raale. so buy considering the Rafale is solution for numbers, that is solution for being bankrupted in best possible time.
:crazy::crazy::crazy::daru::daru::daru::doh::doh::doh:
 

Tactical Frog

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Care to explain how?

As far as i am concerned, i can see, F-35 has stealth(lo RCS) shaping (nose cone and all) and internal weapon bays; two clearly known advantages in air to air combat against a LO fighter which does not has these. Apart from these, F-35s also have integrated EW package completed with smart countermeasures, a next generation powerful AESA and equally potent BVRAAMs and WVRAAMs; which can be carried internally, as compared to Rafale, which can't. So in BVR AC F-35 has clear advantage over RAFALE.

In WVR combat F-35 does scores marginally low on TWR. But is it letting Rafale go past BVR combat with the advantages it enjoys?

With two EF consortium participants buying F-35, "money making" point is highly unlikely and sounds far from truth.

A company could go for money, but will any air force too go blind when it means loosing money?

Indeed it is. But deal is not through yet (oh! i mean signed) despite PM throwing his personal weight on it. That speaks volume on difficulties it is at. Gone two more years (oh yes, highly likely, looking at the track record) when PLAAF starts inducting J-20s, this deal will lose any significance it might still be having.

10 years ago Rafale would have been an asset, everyone will agree. Six years ago, a need. Two years from now! WTF! PLAAF just inducted its J-20.

~ 10 billion USD for what? The cry will grow to its significance. Rightly so! And will be heard by everyone. Keep no doubt.
We ll talk again about F-35 when it is ready for combat .. that is what I said " as of today". Rafale will leap forward too. Count on it .
 

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