Know Your 'Rafale'

[BON PLAN]

This joke is really funny. .......... 100 degree AOA but not operational WTF.
what the advantage of having a 100 AOA but limited to 30. So you are lying bon plan.
Negative speed wow. .......
Speed is scalar quantity that's why it is always positive. Velocity is vector quantity that's why it can be negative but the negative sign is only represents its direction.( opposite in case of negative. )
So negative speed is more absurd claim.

Rafale tested the famous Cobra manoeuver. In this figure OaO is 100°
ABSOLUTELY no operationnal interest : you are a quite immobile target in the sky ! and the issue of a Cobra manoeuver is always the same : easy to predict for the opponent. Cobra is a aerial show figure only.

and why a speed can't be negative? I don't say it can fly 5 minutes in negative speed, but it doesn't go in spin after a negative speed small dive for exemple.


Manoeuvrabilité of RAFALE:

• Distance d'atterrissage : 450 m (sans parachute - en comparaison, il faut plus de 600 m pour un Mirage 2000).
• La fonction aérofreins est obtenu par braquage assymétrique des gouvernes de voilure en associant à la manoeuvre les plans canards.
• A 350 kts, le taux de roulis peut atteindre 270°/s, similaire au Mirage 2000 (150°/s avec charges lourdes).
• Angle d'attaque maximum : 29° ou 20° en configuration lourde. Le domaine est ouvert pour 100° AoA et -40 kts en vitesse (Air fan n°271).
• Avec un bidon de 1250 litres, la masse est de l'ordre de 16.1 t (dont 5.3 t de carburant). Le décollage a lieu vers 125 kts, soit 9 secondes après le lâcher des freins. Dans cette configuration, et en sans usage de la PC, le Rafale maintient 350 kts et 5.5 g.
• "Un virage à 360° dans le plan horizontal se fait en moins de 15 secondes. L'avion peut voler à vitesse zéro ..." selon Jean Claude Hironde.
• Plafond opérationnel : 50.000ft
• Poussée maximum : 2 x 7.5 t
• Facteur de charge maximum : -3.2 g / +9 g (jusqu'à +11g en présentation Alpha)
• Facteur de charge en configuration lourde : +5.5g (ST1 ou ST2 ; L'appareil est en mesure de "reconnaître" lui même ses emports et de définir ainsi l'un ou l'autre des modes ST1 ou ST2).
• Les courbes de montée ou de virage du Rafale et du Mirage 2000 sont différentes. Globalement, malgré l'emport de bombes 2 fois plus nombreuses, le Rafale est plus agile en utilisation normale qu'un 2000 au maximum de ses capacités (source "Rafale en Afghanistan")

=> Rafale flight domain open up to 100° AOA and -40 knots speed.

I will try to find an electronic version of AIR FAN N° 271 ....

 

[BON PLAN]

INDIA for sure does not do that. Our pilots are ethical enough and at the highest professional level
Of course when you agree the french do that, that does beg the question about the professionalism of your pilots.

WHAT A JOKE !!!!! EVERY COUNTRY DO THAT.

 

[Yumdoot]

WHAT A JOKE !!!!! EVERY COUNTRY DO THAT.

Not to say that we don't have bad pilot behaviour.

But remember Red Flag 2008:

As Col Fornof himself said about the IAF, “They were extremely professional – they never flew out of the airspace which we were very concerned about. They had zero training rule violations. And that in itself was incredible. We were very impressed and thanked them so much because they were very very professional.”

In the same exercise where your pilots were whiling their time away.

Exactly how much IAF can believe in the good training rule observation of the rest of the Red Flag participants is obvious from the fact that:

The IAF moved to Nellis AFB on August 9. “To observers’ dismay, and no doubt to that of the US intelligence community, the IAF flew with a number of handicaps," writes Dave Fulghum of Aviation Week.

The Su-30MKI’s powerful Russian-made NIIP-BARS radar was operating only in the training mode which limited the sensor’s range and spectrum of capabilities. The self-imposed radar restrictions prevented US snoops from "mapping" the high-tech radar. But other restrictions were dictated by the hosts, Fulghum writes.

Refer for details:
https://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/03/10/dissecting_a_dogfight_sukhoi_vs_usaf_at_red_flag_2008_33623

 

[Immanuel]

Rafale is a good aircraft, the only issue with it is the price, hopefully that is hammered down to a reasonable figure i.e IMO for around 12 billion we should be able to get atleast 90 including weapons, offsets, some basic TOT and around 54 of them assembled in India , if this can't be achieved, its not worth the extra money put into it. Once the production is stabilizing in India around 2022, IAF should order another 90 to take the total to 180 eventually, the next batch of 90 shouldn't cost more than 10 billion and for 22 billion we should have 180 in total. Rafale deal is an utter waste when only acquired in small numbers i.e 36.

 

[BON PLAN]

Not to say that we don't have bad pilot behaviour.

But remember Red Flag 2008:


In the same exercise where your pilots were whiling their time away.

Exactly how much IAF can believe in the good training rule observation of the rest of the Red Flag participants is obvious from the fact that:


Refer for details:
https://in.rbth.com/blogs/2014/03/10/dissecting_a_dogfight_sukhoi_vs_usaf_at_red_flag_2008_33623

To improve the data base of Spectra, we just have to "open our ears". It's a passive way.

I'm sure every body does same thing. Even well educated Indian pilots.

In training, red flag, etc... nobody use all the field of its systems because everybody knows he is spyed.

 

[Bahamut]

ABSOLUTELY no operationnal interest : you are a quite immobile target in the sky ! and the issue of a Cobra manoeuver is always the same : easy to predict for the opponent. Cobra is a aerial show figure only.

Cobra has its application but only advance pilot use it,it is a double edge sword .It allow you to come behind the enemy in a moment but only very good pilot know hoe to use it .

 

[sasum]

Rafale was tested up to 100° AoA. And even with negative speed.
But no operationnal interest.

In the Feb '16 Singapore Air Show, Captain Benoit Planche, one of France's best test-pilot didn't try two maneuvers -- Pugachev's Cobra & Kulbit, with Rafale. Both demand high AoA to turn the nose up. Can you please explain 100° AoA, when anything greater than 30° tends to stall the plain ? I do not know how Rafale does its maneuvers.

 

[smestarz]

I would really be interested to see Rafale do the Cobra,
Do you have a video link for it?

Cobra maneuver is not something that is done every time in combat. That is why the pilots are trained and by going to exercises like Red Flag they get the experience when to make the maneuver and when not to.

Every maneuver in air combat can be your last, Even experienced pilots get killed in Combat, Cobra maneuver is not a "group" maneuver but it is done during Dog fighting, The timing of the manuever is important at it gives the pilot a short window of time when the opponent is an easy target, but if the pilot loses that moment then be better hope that the opponent is out of missiles and is inexperienced to make him a target.

Cobra is NOT a manuever whose commentary goes like ".... and the sukhois are flying in formation and the enemy are 100 kms and yess the Sukhoi do a cobra.."

In terms of Football, A Cobra maneuver is like Bicycle kick, when done at right time and accurately is a goal, but i the timing is wrong, the player looks like a show off.

Rafale tested the famous Cobra manoeuver. In this figure OaO is 100°
ABSOLUTELY no operationnal interest : you are a quite immobile target in the sky ! and the issue of a Cobra manoeuver is always the same : easy to predict for the opponent. Cobra is a aerial show figure only.

and why a speed can't be negative? I don't say it can fly 5 minutes in negative speed, but it doesn't go in spin after a negative speed small dive for exemple.


Manoeuvrabilité of RAFALE:

• Distance d'atterrissage : 450 m (sans parachute - en comparaison, il faut plus de 600 m pour un Mirage 2000).
• La fonction aérofreins est obtenu par braquage assymétrique des gouvernes de voilure en associant à la manoeuvre les plans canards.
• A 350 kts, le taux de roulis peut atteindre 270°/s, similaire au Mirage 2000 (150°/s avec charges lourdes).
• Angle d'attaque maximum : 29° ou 20° en configuration lourde. Le domaine est ouvert pour 100° AoA et -40 kts en vitesse (Air fan n°271).
• Avec un bidon de 1250 litres, la masse est de l'ordre de 16.1 t (dont 5.3 t de carburant). Le décollage a lieu vers 125 kts, soit 9 secondes après le lâcher des freins. Dans cette configuration, et en sans usage de la PC, le Rafale maintient 350 kts et 5.5 g.
• "Un virage à 360° dans le plan horizontal se fait en moins de 15 secondes. L'avion peut voler à vitesse zéro ..." selon Jean Claude Hironde.
• Plafond opérationnel : 50.000ft
• Poussée maximum : 2 x 7.5 t
• Facteur de charge maximum : -3.2 g / +9 g (jusqu'à +11g en présentation Alpha)
• Facteur de charge en configuration lourde : +5.5g (ST1 ou ST2 ; L'appareil est en mesure de "reconnaître" lui même ses emports et de définir ainsi l'un ou l'autre des modes ST1 ou ST2).
• Les courbes de montée ou de virage du Rafale et du Mirage 2000 sont différentes. Globalement, malgré l'emport de bombes 2 fois plus nombreuses, le Rafale est plus agile en utilisation normale qu'un 2000 au maximum de ses capacités (source "Rafale en Afghanistan")

=> Rafale flight domain open up to 100° AOA and -40 knots speed.

I will try to find an electronic version of AIR FAN N° 271 ....

 

[smestarz]

To improve the data base of Spectra, we just have to "open our ears". It's a passive way.

I'm sure every body does same thing. Even well educated Indian pilots.

In training, red flag, etc... nobody use all the field of its systems because everybody knows he is spyed.

As I said, Indian pilots are highly professional and well beyond the cheap tricks that are used by the French air force and its pilots. So since you admit the french do it, stop wondering why other countries do not want to exercise with you, it is because you do not come with the right intentions.

Indian pilots on other hand respect the opponents like they respect their fellow pilot as a professional of high degree. Getting into IAF is a very difficult part and only the creme are selected for IAF and from that only a handful reach the stage where they become pilots and fraction among those handful become Su-30 MKI pilots that too after flying other planes for a long time. Thus they know that they are the Elite of their nation, selected from Few hundred thousand applicants each year. And they assume that the opponents are also the creme of their country's youth that was selected for being the best. Indian pilots never forget this, and they respect their opponents and the opponents know this and respect them.

So would the Indian pilots who fly planes like Su-30 MKI resort to cheap tricks? highly unlikely, They would not bring disrespect to IAF in general and their Squadron in particular.

 

[smestarz]

Egypt and Qatar might get a very very very bad taste.

Rafale is a good aircraft, the only issue with it is the price, hopefully that is hammered down to a reasonable figure i.e IMO for around 12 billion we should be able to get atleast 90 including weapons, offsets, some basic TOT and around 54 of them assembled in India , if this can't be achieved, its not worth the extra money put into it. Once the production is stabilizing in India around 2022, IAF should order another 90 to take the total to 180 eventually, the next batch of 90 shouldn't cost more than 10 billion and for 22 billion we should have 180 in total. Rafale deal is an utter waste when only acquired in small numbers i.e 36.

 

[BON PLAN]

Cobra has its application but only advance pilot use it,it is a double edge sword .It allow you to come behind the enemy in a moment but only very good pilot know hoe to use it .

Spatial desorientation + No more cinematic energy + quite immobile in the sky = nice target + leak of altitude.... => Many many disadvantages.

Maybe Buck Danny is skilled enough for use it....

 

[smestarz]

WHAT A JOKE !!!!! EVERY COUNTRY DO THAT.

We dont, but then are you calling french pilots jokers? WOW

 

[BON PLAN]

In the Feb '16 Singapore Air Show, Captain Benoit Planche, one of France's best test-pilot didn't try two maneuvers -- Pugachev's Cobra & Kulbit, with Rafale. Both demand high AoA to turn the nose up. Can you please explain 100° AoA, when anything greater than 30° tends to stall the plain ? I do not know how Rafale does its maneuvers.

Operationnal planes are limited to 34° AoA.
During test, Dassault opened the domain to 100° and -40kt. But French air Force and dedicated tests pilots don't find it interesting. So they keep the operationnal Rafale in a more restricted domain, where recovery is safer.

 

[BON PLAN]

As I said, Indian pilots are highly professional and well beyond the cheap tricks that are used by the French air force and its pilots. So since you admit the french do it, stop wondering why other countries do not want to exercise with you, it is because you do not come with the right intentions.

Everybody does that.
If you don't want to be heard, just reduce or cut your emissions. It's what SU30MKI made during different trials.
Same as real cinematic perf of missile are reduced during trials.

 

[BON PLAN]

We dont, but then are you calling french pilots jokers? WOW

I don't agree. Sorry.

In the same vein, do you mean India don't have spies? It's the same kind of game.

 

[smestarz]

You should read what he said
"only experienced pilots do it" and so they know when exactly to execute the maneuver
They train all through the years and build up enough knowledge and experience about their plane and how to use it to the best advantage of it. So if a pilot executes and is "nice target" then the pilot is definitely french.

Spatial desorientation + No more cinematic energy + quite immobile in the sky = nice target .... Many many disadvantage.

Maybe Buck Danny is skilled enough for use it....

hat

 

[smestarz]

I don't agree. Sorry.

In the same vein, do you mean India don't have spies? It's the same kind of game.

Spies, its their profession or job to do that, Indian spies are not the creme de la creme but the pilots are.
Thats where the difference is.

Well you are French and you know what French pilots do, We are indians and we know the professionalism of Indian pilots

 

[sasum]

Operationnal planes are limited to 34° AoA.
During test, Dassault opened the domain to 100° and -40kt. But French air Force and dedicated tests pilots don't find it interesting. So they keep the operationnal Rafale in a more restricted domain, where recovery is safer.

That is what I am saying. At 100° AoA, the plane will not gain any lift (stall) and if it is in lower atmosphere against the wind it will lose forward movement also. In short, plane will be kind of stationary. That is the purpose of Cobra maneuver. It is not very useful in dogfighting. But looks great in Aerobatics show.

 

[sasum]

....Dassault opened the domain to 100° and -40kt.

Only on ground, if the speed of head-wind is more than speed of forward thrust, does the plane slide backward. While in sky how the plane records -40 knots. Was the plane drifting backwards?

 

[BON PLAN]

That is what I am saying. At 100° AoA, the plane will not gain any lift (stall) and if it is in lower atmosphere against the wind it will lose forward movement also. In short, plane will be kind of stationary. That is the purpose of Cobra maneuver. It is not very useful in dogfighting. But looks great in Aerobatics show.

Exactly.
My dear Smestarz : read carrefully.