Know Your 'Rafale'

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

@Gessler @Archer -- both of you are banned on the thread.You can use PM to abuse each other to the fullest. Others do not have any interest in your trash talk.

Next time rather than engaging the troll, just report the posts.

 

[Anupu]

@Gessler @Archer Please just stop it now buddies. It's juvenile and totally off-topic yaar. Just end it, we may be wrong or right when it comes to Rafale but theek hai. We are just discussing the aircraft. I don't think there is any meaning left in doing that any more. OK lets agree to disagree, you guys think Rafale is not good and shouldn't be brought. We think it is a good purchase. Lets end it at that. This thread has become too personal.

 

[sasum]

So your reply to an absurd statement is to compile an even more absurd list. So let me get this straight- Su-35 is the best dogfighter but the very aircraft from which it borrowed heavily is a dud You're aware of the fact that IAF Su-30MKIs have been kicking RAF and USAF's butt in 1 vs 1 engagements in exercises for the last decade or so, aren't you? Or is that news for you?

It is time DFI gave the downvote/dislike option so that kids don't get away with posting such :bs:

If SU-30 MK I won mock combat exercises against Eurofighter, under operation Indradhanush, I have to say, I was wrong in terming it as dud. Somewhere I read, the credit should have gone to the greater skills of our fighter pilots than to the aircraft itself.

 

[smestarz]

So your reply to an absurd statement is to compile an even more absurd list. So let me get this straight- Su-35 is the best dogfighter but the very aircraft from which it borrowed heavily is a dud You're aware of the fact that IAF Su-30MKIs have been kicking RAF and USAF's butt in 1 vs 1 engagements in exercises for the last decade or so, aren't you? Or is that news for you?

It is time DFI gave the downvote/dislike option so that kids don't get away with posting such :bs:

Su-27 flanker is a very basic plane, You can call it the patriarch of the Flanker family. Though other designs afte that have some basic similarities they cannot be much different, Thus all models look similar to the basic Su-27 but in actual they are totally different.

Su-30 MKI is derived from Su-30 which is derived from Su-27, since the BARS radar was heavy, there was a need to add the canads, that also provided a better handling. Su-30 SM the Russian plane is result of Indian contribution Su-30 MKI.

Su-35 is a canardless design and even though there are no canards it is very maneuverable thanks to its design and TVC engines. It can carry more fuel and more load. You can look at it as an improved flanker design but also it can be a totally new model which is derived from Su-27.

Even on similar note, even rafale is very similar to Mirage III design, Mirage III -- > Mirage 2000 -- Mirage 4000 ---> Rafale actually has a similar pathway. If you look at the plane deisgn you will be sure of it

 

[Rahul Singh]

So where we are on Rafale deal as we speak? A spoon feeding alert but i am too tired following this thread. Someone kind at heart help.

 

[smestarz]

So where we are on Rafale deal as we speak? A spoon feeding alert but i am too tired following this thread. Someone kind at heart help.

The deal is where it was a say in December 2015.. still discussing.
I think its best to carry on with your work and if the deal is announced, make sure that you see it in 3 different news channels before you react to it.

 

[Rahul Singh]

The deal is where it was a say in December 2015.. still discussing.
I think its best to carry on with your work and if the deal is announced, make sure that you see it in 3 different news channels before you react to it.

Like i suspected. Let it go on. Modi is brave, he tried to get rid of this by proposing government to government and reduced numbers to 36. Still he can't get it through. And reasons are obvious. People will raise questions like. What good Rafale is at this hefty price when China is about to induct fifth generation J-20? Why can't money be spent logically by developing MKI to SU-35 standards, buying two squadrons of SU-34s for ground attack and buying 100 more Tejas MK-2 thereby meeting squadron numbers, fulfilling tactical requirements and saving money for important projects like second line for SSKs and development of AMCA? Modi will be fool to get into this unnecessary controversy.

 

[garg_bharat]

@Rahul Singh, there must be genuine problems (like offsets) which may be causing delay.

All stops have been removed from Tejas procurement, so it is not an issue. Now it is up to HAL to deliver.

Su-30 are still being delivered from HAL Nasik. I think they have to go 3-4 years to complete the existing order.

Su-34, Su-35: There is no proposal to acquire except speculation.

Su-30 upgrade: I think Nasik has to cope with new builds and servicing first, as the fleet is already very large.

 

[Rahul Singh]

@Rahul Singh, there must be genuine problems (like offsets) which may be causing delay.

All stops have been removed from Tejas procurement, so it is not an issue. Now it is up to HAL to deliver.

Su-30 are still being delivered from HAL Nasik. I think they have to go 3-4 years to complete the existing order.

Su-34, Su-35: There is no proposal to acquire except speculation.

Su-30 upgrade: I think Nasik has to cope with new builds and servicing first, as the fleet is already very large.

I am not even talking technical but talking of political fallout if not debacle with an alternate route as obstacle avoidance.

People will raise questions on per unit price of Rafale by totally discarding technical fineness. And why? Because in past even price of cofins have been questiond by paying total disregard to difference in quality. And here you have Rafale with such a hefty price tag that it sounds ridiculous even to a lay man. Leaving aside its technical comparativness vis-i-vis J-20s and J-31s.

As on tactical side. Let me put a hypothetical senario. France goes to war against USA. And suppose USAF has just F-35s and in same numbers as french has Rafale. Who do you think will come out victorious? A good look at RAF procurement of F-35s despite having EF hints the obvious. Now just think Rafale vs J-20 and J-31s in Indo-China senario.

 

[jackprince]

Sir ji, if you think someone is corrupt then please go through the judicial system and get them arrested by presenting quantifiable evidence - it's your responsibility as a citizen.

Doing none of that and just sitting here and mumbling "he's corrupt. I just know it" is an equivalent of BULLSHIT and you're certainly not changing the opinion of me or anyone who is discerning instead of being filled with prejudices and assumption.

Do you think this is a game...accusing a certain person of corruption?

Now, it is the citizen's responsibility to dig out evidences? I thought it was the state's responsibility given how many alphabetical institutions they have for this specific reasons?

Now, you would say that since there is no evidence placed before the judiciaries, there was no crime done. What makes you believe that if the top Brasses can be bought off, the investigation agencies cannot be? Actually all the evidences points that CBI is highly corrupt organisation in itself.

Even though Tyagi has all crystal clear circumstantial and procedural evidences against him, he is still roaming free. Tells much about our investigating agencies, no? You might have, but we didn't forget about the Pilatus scam, which was personally supervised by Tyagi's successor NAK Browne. It is very clear that a coterie of corrupt officers has been created at the top and which translates that steadfast officers don't see the top posts ever.

All this idea that has been developed about the Top leadership of IAF, is not prejudice but reasoned and studied opinion.

So, no wonder when Mirage-2000 offer was rejected by MoD, the interested group at IAF would find Rafale to be the successor. How else Rafale gets the confidence to alter price drastically and unreasonably after the declaration of L1 price? They must have been counting on some people supporting their outrageous bid? The Rafale deal is equally fraught with corruption, as I cannot see the IAF brasses failing to sponge off big money out of such a deal which comes once in a lifetime, when they did not spare a single other acquisition process.

It is the IAF which okeyed a civilian version of helicopter for LUH tender, bought AW-101 without trial at India, bought Pilatus trainers which subsequently raised the price for 'repair & maintenance' cost exorbitantly and selected Rafale as L-1 when not keeping the L-2 as option, even. So, what's wrong to call those service chiefs thieves?

 

[BON PLAN]

Tactical, when was the last time you guys sold ANY country your grade A stuff?

For the Mirage 2000-Hs we got RDM radars while you chaps had RDI.

So how realistic is it that you will even give us the all-up Spectra let alone preloaded with target information?

We both know, that the IAF has only got grade A kit out of a rare difference, eg Russian troubles and hence Su-30 MKI with then cutting edge systems the RuAF didnt have.

Otherwise, we mostly get what you are willing to export.

Maybe because RDM radar was fully mature, and RDI not.

Why do you think we will not give you a preloded spectra? It's quite normal.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale has no stealth it is just a 4th gen

WRONG !
From the beginning stealth was a contractual request of the programm . Not at an F22 level for sure, but it is a LO plane
Not a VLO because french air force didn't think it is a decisiv argument.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale AoA just limited to 30. May be you can claim more ( which is a lie)

Rafale was tested up to 100° AoA. And even with negative speed.
But no operationnal interest.

 

[BON PLAN]

Do you know how SPECTRA is trying to build its threat library? When other countries go to exercises to home skills and get the pilots to learn, the French go only for trying to sniff the avionics and try to build the threat libraries

And off course US, GB ... even India don't do that !!!!

 

[BON PLAN]

@Gessler @Archer -- both of you are banned on the thread.You can use PM to abuse each other to the fullest. Others do not have any interest in your trash talk.

Next time rather than engaging the troll, just report the posts.

Hello Moderator,

You ban Archer : it's normal.
You ban Gessler also? He wasn't aggressiv. just arguiing... It's hard.

 

[harsh]

WRONG !
From the beginning stealth was a contractual request of the programm . Not at an F22 level for sure, but it is a LO plane
Not a VLO because french air force didn't think it is a decisiv argument.

You didn't read my full reply.
I am saying if rafale is a stealth aircraft ofcourse LO then our LCA is also has LO stealth.
LCA has more composite in airframe y shape duct and it is smaller than rafale. So LCA-Tejas is LO aircraft just like Rafale.

Rafale was tested up to 100° AoA. And even with negative speed.
But no operationnal interest.

This joke is really funny. .......... 100 degree AOA but not operational WTF.
what the advantage of having a 100 AOA but limited to 30. So you are lying bon plan.
Negative speed wow. .......
Speed is scalar quantity that's why it is always positive. Velocity is vector quantity that's why it can be negative but the negative sign is only represents its direction.( opposite in case of negative. )
So negative speed is more absurd claim.
Please get your fact right and give some link to prove them.
Don't give gossip links.

 

[smestarz]

And off course US, GB ... even India don't do that !!!!

INDIA for sure does not do that. Our pilots are ethical enough and at the highest professional level
Of course when you agree the french do that, that does beg the question about the professionalism of your pilots.

 

[smestarz]

Hello Moderator,

You ban Archer : it's normal.
You ban Gessler also? He wasn't aggressiv. just arguiing... It's hard.

Sorry, seems you lost your wingman

 

[smestarz]

You didn't read my full reply.
I am saying if rafale is a stealth aircraft ofcourse LO then our LCA is also has LO stealth.
LCA has more composite in airframe y shape duct and it is smaller than rafale. So LCA-Tejas is LO aircraft just like Rafale.



This joke is really funny. .......... 100 degree AOA but not operational WTF.
what the advantage of having a 100 AOA but limited to 30. So you are lying bon plan.
Negative speed wow. .......
Speed is scalar quantity that's why it is always positive. Velocity is vector quantity that's why it can be negative but the negative sign is only represents its direction.( opposite in case of negative. )
So negative speed is more absurd claim.
Please get your fact right and give some link to prove them.
Don't give gossip links.

Relax, he believes in all the BS that is spinning abt Rafale
Next they could talk of Romulan device on Rafale

 

[Zebra]

We may want more fighters but fighters alone will not save us in a war.

The relationship with USA is quite complex as India was never in the USA ally list. USA does not have much institutional support for India. People jump to conclusions. I have already written that this is a marriage of incompatible partners.

Sir, there are no complexity in it.
Now if you wants to create all new then its different story.
And US is the only nation on earth, with whom we conducted maximum military exercises.
Its not people, its you who jumped to your conclusion. Let me make it clear.

We have the following situation:
1. Russia has lost its preeminence in indian security establishment. So even if Russian weapons can do the job, the elite does not want it.

Sir, we are using Russian weapons already. We will use them quit some time in future also.
Only thing is we change our way of thinking and that will affect our requirements also.

2. USA has what we need but prices are high and terms are bad.

Again, prove it first. And bring facts based on life cycle costing.

3. Europeans are difficult to deal with, prices are sky high, and chances of deals failing very high.
4. May be we should try China.
5. Israel has benefited from our predicament, but israel can satisfy only a small part of our needs.

Sir, that is what DFI can get from you. Isn't it....!

Mind it, we are in such bad position because we have failed to pay attention to our own industry. Even now not much work is being given despite existence of additional capacity in the private sector. Public sector is plagued with low efficiency.

Say thank you to our politicians.
Even when US defence secretary was there in India, it was good chance for F/A-18 deal.