Know Your 'Rafale'

[harsh]

@smestarz @Archer An officer may or may not be corrupt. And just because one officer was corrupt does not mean all of them are. But still it does not change the facts - just because you assume/accuse everyone of corruption does not make you a better judge of things in their area of expertise - regardless of what you'd like to believe.

If at all corruption happened, it will be processed through the legal channels like happened in the AW-101 case.

The fact that you question the requirement itself (for medium-class fighters), which was successively pursued by changing Governments, top brass and foreign vendors ever since 2004...clearly shows that you're a kid trying to fill a man's shoes.

Man it is not the matter of one corrupt IAF officer. It is IAF chief. Why don't you realise that supreme leader of IAF is corrupt. Now he can't do this corruption alone so there are more high rank officers who are corrupt. And more defence deals where they are making money and looting their own country.
The point is
We can afford some corrupt politicians for 5 years we had done it in past. But we can't just afford IAF supreme leadership to go corrupt.

They are not milking just one corrupt defense deal. There are more officers and deals and money.

And we have to get rid of officers and deals as fast as we can.

You can't compare defense personal with politicians. We will be destroyed from inside by ourself without any fight if these corrupt officers lead our forces

 

[Gessler]

Man it is not the matter of one corrupt IAF officer. It is IAF chief. Why don't you realise that supreme leader of IAF is corrupt. Now he can't do this corruption alone so there are more high rank officers who are corrupt. And more defence deals where they are making money and looting their own country.
The point is
We can afford some corrupt politicians for 5 years we had done it in past. But we can't just afford IAF supreme leadership to go corrupt.

They are not milking just one corrupt defense deal. There are more officers and deals and money.

And we have to get rid of officers and deals as fast as we can.

You can't compare defense personal with politicians. We will be destroyed from inside by ourself without any fight if these corrupt officers lead our forces

Sir ji, if you think someone is corrupt then please go through the judicial system and get them arrested by presenting quantifiable evidence - it's your responsibility as a citizen.

Doing none of that and just sitting here and mumbling "he's corrupt. I just know it" is an equivalent of BULLSHIT and you're certainly not changing the opinion of me or anyone who is discerning instead of being filled with prejudices and assumption.

Do you think this is a game...accusing a certain person of corruption?

 

[smestarz]

Izzat of senior officer is equal to millions of dollars of hard cash. The logic is if politicians get it, they why not military elite.

Every government servant is terribly jealous of others who have 'made it'.

It is a fact that European companies are the most corrupt and have the largest blame for corrupting our officer class.

Indian system itself is going to breed corruption, In govt there are classes of officers Class 1, Class 2 etc, do the officers of same class get the same salary? No. The Bureaucrats get more than the corresponding officers of Armed forces. Also add the ministers to this mix, they are there for 5 years and so the moment they are sworn in they are trying to "recover their investment" that they have incured for getting this post. So the minister is making money for signing, the Bureaucrat who is smarter sees the illiterate minister minting millions so how does it really help his cause.

Its like studying hard for an exam, and when you go to examination hall, its almost Free copying for everyone, and having the same examination hall, how would one boost his own morale to study? Rather the role of a minister should be more like an observer and suggestor rather than be the actual signing authority, but our system was designed assuming that every minister will be honest and a patriot beyond doubts. Now the situation is that not only the politicians but even the Top Defence chiefs are corrupt. So the system has to be tweaked to ensure that involvement of Ministers to influence deals is minimised and can be done ONLY if he feels that something wrong is being done under his watch by the bureaucrats and that can be done by setting up PAC . One thing is certain, the present system allows the breeding of corruption

 

[smestarz]

I agree with just one point, that not all officers are corrupt, But then when the officer who was until a few years ago the Chief of the premier force in South East Asia indulges in bending/breaking rules and widescale corruption to help his relatives and an political masters to make money, would one really respect him as a Officer?
What sort of effect does it have on the servicemen of that command? Not all policemen are corrupt but when we talk of "policemen" the first thing that now comes to mind is corrupt cop with big belly and willing to manage many things just for money.

Further, Patriot of not is not defined by the uniform, but character, During the Pathankot incidents, the terrorist were wearing Indian Army uniform, do we treat them as Patriotic soldiers just because they wear a uniform?

Logic is simple, Everyone wearing the uniform is not patriotic or looks for the goodwill of the country, Any person who is against the goodwill of the country or does act to undermine the security or position of my country is a Traitor and should be shot, Then be it a Terrorist who is wearing Indian army uniform, or a Army Jawan who is passing info to Pakistani intelligence or be it Air force chief who is corrupt, All three should be treated with same standards.

Army chief or soldier is a term of respect but when the term is precded by adjective "corrupt" then there is no need for respect. Maybe the guy has sacrificed a lot for the country and thanks for that, but that does not allow either of them to undermine the security of my country.

You still start your question with "IF CORRUPTION HAS HAPPENED ..... " really ???

By the way if you try to follow the actual RFP, it was never "medium" it was just Mirage 2000 to start with and what a co-incidence, thats Dassault too.Then when that request for purchase of more Mirage 2000 as follow up order turned into RFP even then Dassault entered with Mirage 2000. But when all sort of heavy weights like F/A-18, MiG-35, Gripen and importantly Eurofighter came in the Dassault and IAF realised the game was up and so they changed the entry to Rafale.

IF you actually look at how the RFP played out, IAF did systematic elimination to get in Rafale.
First the actual cheap planes were eliminated (F-16, Gripen, MiG-35) also F/A-18 was eliminated due to technicality. and then the two planes selected were both the highest costing planes. The Rafale bid was managed (the bid was incomplete) and many nos assumed to find it winner on LCC.

Just a point that If India was looking for a cost effective plane (just another story here) then possibly the Eurocanards would be out first. The Teens would be out being Americam and MiG-35 because it was Russian. And we would have been at the same position still.

This entire mess is creation of IAF top brass which does not consider spare management as an important aspect/ Some members have informed that the cost of year maintenance of Mirage 2000 is actually 2.5 times that of twin engined Su-30 MKI, the low availability of Su-30 MKI is due to negligence of IAF only and this has been cited in CAG report . So IAF top brass is like the mother in law of a daily soap who does all the bad things but puts the blame squarely on the polite bahu (Russian planes)

Hell even Mirage 2000 in IAF had zero availability (grounded due to lack fo spares) last year. Are you going to blame France or IAF? When its issue with Mirage 2000 all fingers point to IAF and when there is an issue with Su-30 MKI all fingers point at Russians???

Also another point to add. MiG-21 had a good safety record and then some jokers of the establishment put in cheap parts which caused many of the planes to crash. Many countries still use MiG-21 without the crash rate of IAF

@smestarz @Archer An officer may or may not be corrupt. And just because one officer was corrupt does not mean all of them are. But still it does not change the facts - just because you assume/accuse everyone of corruption does not make you a better judge of things in their area of expertise - regardless of what you'd like to believe.

If at all corruption happened, it will be processed through the legal channels like happened in the AW-101 case.

The fact that you question the requirement itself (for medium-class fighters), which was successively pursued by changing Governments, top brass and foreign vendors ever since 2004...clearly shows that you're a kid trying to fill a man's shoes.

 

[smestarz]

Sir ji, if you think someone is corrupt then please go through the judicial system and get them arrested by presenting quantifiable evidence - it's your responsibility as a citizen.

Doing none of that and just sitting here and mumbling "he's corrupt. I just know it" is an equivalent of BULLSHIT and you're certainly not changing the opinion of me or anyone who is discerning instead of being filled with prejudices and assumption.

Do you think this is a game...accusing a certain person of corruption?

The person has been named in Italian court. and its coincidence that one Mr. Tyagi is IAF chief, His cousin is in contact with AW, The AW helicopter is selected without even TESTING. Testing by the way is compulsary before buying a product. Even Bofors gun was tested in India where as AW 101 was not tested. So if a helicopter is not tested, how is it deemed to be fulfilling the requirement of IAF? by reading the brochures? Tejas, our own plane, you should be aware how much it has been tested. Some points noted and the manufacturer coming with solution to the issues. When a deal for military hardware is done without even testing to see if its actually as per the requirement itself stinks of corruption and undermining national security. IN SIMPLE WORDS, THE IAF CHIEF WAS INCOMPETENT TO DO HIS JOB.

 

[Anupu]

First I don't really understand why people take Rafale so personally, I don't see any reason to be so vehemently opposed to an aircraft. Second the issue is not corruption, even if IAF chief was involved the case was of VIP transport Helis not fighter aircraft. Selection of fighters involved a lot of testing and IAF officers realize that in case of war, fighters won't be something that you can fool around with. But all this is irrelevant and not the issue.

The issue is simple.
Does IAF need Rafale? Is there an aircraft that can perform the same tasks as Rafale in Indian inventory? What could be the possible situations where you need Rafale and how will the replacements perform in that situations.

OK let me give you a scenario, China and India go to war. Pakistanis decide that you know what we love Indians and decide to sit out of the war. Chinese will most likely attack with their land forces on at least 2 fronts. Arunachal and Aksai Chin. They could possibly attack through Bhutan too.

Let see what could happen on one of these fronts. Aksai Chin:

Chinese move their Light MBTs over to try and cross Chip chap river, while PLAAF has placed 6 S-300 Batteries to defend their troops with two S-300 giving protection to their 6 S-300s protection while they reload and 2 S-300s in Reserve. Now While this time J-11s and Su-27s are trying to gain Air superiority and attempting to knock off DBO and other airstrips is the final goal.
Our goals are to knock off S-300s and try to push the reach of IAF to Kashgar and Hotan. Defend Indian Light BMP-2 armor; and help push back with our heavy armor back into Aksai Chin after it arrives.

Don't take it personally, and rationally lets think that how can IAF deal with this situation which is a very simple scenario. You may use all possible aircraft IAF has and can have by 2020.

 

[Tactical Frog]

http://rafalenews.blogspot.fr/2013/01/mali-first-rafale-strikes.html

BS . Our Rafale can strike as far as northern Mali !

Rafale is designed as per requirement of European countries which are geographically small, (France might be similar in size to Rajasthan) and for them it makes sense to have small or medium range plane Having a long range plane does not really help them rather it would be adding to the cost.

 

[Gessler]

A far more detailed response to AW-101 scandal than just yelling corruption -

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2016/04/italys-cruel-farce-indias-pathetic.html

 

[Tactical Frog]

After paris bombing france take pledge to destroy ISIS. But poor franch charles de gualle and rafale had bad luck. They didn't kill a mosquito there forget ISIS.

Now our deepika kumari can coach them so that they find target next time.

Rafale and French Mirage 2000 strike ISIS in Iraq twice a week at least. Check Ruptly or other Russian outlets, mr Happiness.

 

[smestarz]

http://rafalenews.blogspot.fr/2013/01/mali-first-rafale-strikes.html

BS . Our Rafale can strike as far as northern Mali !

Nice article full or uncertainties
Few points, the author is not sure if its GBU-12 or AASM ? But later says its AASM.
It carries 3 drop tanks. No A2A missiles?

Thats what I am trying to tell you babe, Rafale is good against countries that do not have credible air power. (so for mali they can fly without A2A mssiles) but with countries like China and specially if you plan to hit city like Guangzhou one might need at least 4 A2A missiles jut to keep out of trouble. So in that case what might armament of Rafale end up ? 3-5 drop tanks. 2-4 AASM 2-4 mica? you can do the math. Rafale itself does not have the legs to attack China, China is too big for Rafales tiny legs. Rafale best stick to attacking African cities.

 

[smestarz]

Rafale and French Mirage 2000 strike ISIS in Iraq twice a week at least. Check Ruptly or other Russian outlets, mr Happiness.

French air force was "bombing IS" for more than a year... what was the result?
Russians bomb the IS and opposition objectively, the results is for the world to see.
The french are apparently using a scalpel to cut prime portion of beef. YOU HAVE THE WRONG IDEA AND INSTRUMENTS.. When one has to cut a prime portion, one has to use chefs knife. The russians came to Syria with right strategy and right hardware. the French are just there on supporting cast saying "... we were also there ... " but then the syrians nor the russians nor the IS gives a crap about French prescence your attacks are too negligible to be effective

 

[harsh]

These rafale fanboys can not understand a simple thing that rafale is 4th gen aircraft Which can't strike inside china. Rafale can't just deal with s300 and s400 air defence systems. And more over they huge no of s27 and j11. Even if we buy 126 rafales with 25 billion price tag. We are facing a scenario of 3 to 1.
So much money on 4th gen aircraft is just waste.
We want numbers and one 5th gen aircraft. Buy cheap 4th gen aircraft may be mig 35 or if want something expensive then f18 will do the job. Increase the number of su 30 mki and get t 50 pak fa as soon as possible so that we can turn the odds.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Rafale is designed as per requirement of European countries which are geographically small, (France might be similar in size to Rajasthan) and for them it makes sense to have small or medium range plane Having a long range plane does not really help them rather it would be adding to the cost.

FYI : France is considerably bigger than Rajasthan ! 550 000 sq km vs 342 000 sq km.
Thanks to Putin annexing Crimea, France is technically the largest european state by size after Russia not his prime goal obviously.

French air force was "bombing IS" for more than a year... what was the result?

The result is that Isis is losing ground in Iraq ! Look at maps. We are not in a hurry. Slow death is guaranteed for the caliphate.

 

[smestarz]

View attachment 8450

FYI : France is considerably bigger than Rajasthan ! 550 000 sq km vs 342 000 sq km.
Thanks to Putin annexing Crimea, France is technically the largest european state by size after Russia not his prime goal obviously.


The result is that Isis is losing ground in Iraq ! Look at maps. We are not in a hurry. Slow death is guaranteed for the caliphate.

Slow death is sure as the Russians are there, the French being presence or absent is insignificant in case of fight against IS. I think the French presence in Iraq is like ceremonial guards,

 

[Tactical Frog]

These rafale fanboys can not understand a simple thing that rafale is 4th gen aircraft Which can't strike inside china. Rafale can't just deal with s300 and s400 air defence systems. And more over they huge no of s27 and j11. Even if we buy 126 rafales with 25 billion price tag. We are facing a scenario of 3 to 1.
So much money on 4th gen aircraft is just waste.
We want numbers and one 5th gen aircraft. Buy cheap 4th gen aircraft may be mig 35 or if want something expensive then f18 will do the job. Increase the number of su 30 mki and get t 50 pak fa as soon as possible so that we can turn the odds.

You have no idea if Rafale can or cannot penetrate airspace defended by S300 or S400. It has not be tried yet ! You have to try to know. You think we can just set up some tests ?
What I can say is that we invested a lot of money in Spectra in order to penetrate Russian air defenses. But we are not going to run live tests .

 

[Tactical Frog]

Slow death is sure as the Russians are there, the French being presence or absent is insignificant in case of fight against IS. I think the French presence in Iraq is like ceremonial guards,

Fed with your BS . You are free to call SCALP missiles and AASM Hammer strikes " ceremonial guards" . I let people judge.

 

[Anupu]

These rafale fanboys can not understand a simple thing that rafale is 4th gen aircraft Which can't strike inside china. Rafale can't just deal with s300 and s400 air defence systems. And more over they huge no of s27 and j11. Even if we buy 126 rafales with 25 billion price tag. We are facing a scenario of 3 to 1.
So much money on 4th gen aircraft is just waste.
We want numbers and one 5th gen aircraft. Buy cheap 4th gen aircraft may be mig 35 or if want something expensive then f18 will do the job. Increase the number of su 30 mki and get t 50 pak fa as soon as possible so that we can turn the odds.

http://ultimaratio-blog.org/en/archives/5749

SPECTRA is a battle-proven and very effective tool, and there is even some evidence that it was the only platform that performed well against an SA-10B during the NATO exerciseMACE XIII in April 2012 in Slovakia. Yet it confronted only one SAM system, and experts are quite skeptical about SPECTRA’s performance when facing integrated air defense systems, which means dealing with multiple threats and multiple enemy radars, possibly AESA ones

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=27332
And that was when Rafale didn't have an AESA and new GaN-based RF jammers & receivers.
I doubt MKI would perform better than Rafale... And Let me tell you that scenario I just gave, is pure Gold for IAF.

If we don't have to fight a two front war, we can have a much larger force concentration of aircrafts than what Chinese can bring in. They don't have airbases as close to LAC.

They also have Taiwan, Japan and US to take care of. You guys don't really know how wars are fought. Your obsession with numbers is making your view too narrow.

When a Spartan argued in favor of waging war against Macedon, citing as support their previous successes against Persia, King Eudamidas retorted "You seem not to realize that your proposition is the same as fighting fifty wolves after defeating a thousand sheep.

 

[Bahamut]

http://ultimaratio-blog.org/en/archives/5749

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=27332
And that was when Rafale didn't have an AESA and new GaN-based RF jammers & receivers.
I doubt MKI would perform better than Rafale... And Let me tell you that scenario I just gave, is pure Gold for IAF.

If we don't have to fight a two front war, we can have a much larger force concentration of aircrafts than what Chinese can bring in. They don't have airbases as close to LAC.

They also have Taiwan, Japan and US to take care of. You guys don't really know how wars are fought. Your obsession with numbers is making your view too narrow.

When a Spartan argued in favor of waging war against Macedon, citing as support their previous successes against Persia, King Eudamidas retorted "You seem not to realize that your proposition is the same as fighting fifty wolves after defeating a thousand sheep.

There is some thing missing so I would like to add that China operated its SAM in manner where one system protects another system with support from EW system making it much difficult to shoot down. In such a case even B 2 has problem punching through it .

 

[smestarz]

Fed with your BS . You are free to call SCALP missiles and AASM Hammer strikes " ceremonial guards" . I let people judge.

The French are almost non existent in Iraq. There are surely no news in any mainstream media about the "french wrath" The French "efforts" in Syria/Iraq are meagre and insignificant. SCALP and Hammer are good missiles but they are too expensive for the French to use in Syria, After all its more expense than any gain. You can check your own source. So, there are meagre to almost non-existent strikes by your "formidable" SCALP or Hammer. and Rafale and Mirages there in Syria are for Ceremonial use only. The real effort in term of Fire power is being put by the Russians. The French did not have any plan, and after the Attack on Paris the french were gungho, But then after seeing the cost of few days of bombing, the French just mellowed down and its efforts possibly only limited to weekend sorties. You can go for the various sources and see how many sorties the French flew (which claimed vengence against IS for bombing paris) and the Russian sorties which came in support of Assad. The French presence in operations against IS are more than a year old where as the Russians have just completed 6 months and the results already show.

When you are faced with Raw facts this was the answer expected from you, thank god you croaked.

 

[Tactical Frog]

Though war is the absolute test of the performance of a weapon system, Spectra has been extensively tested against French defence systems , which are not bad either. Next step of the game is to collect as much intelligence (SIGINT) as you can about Russian latest and most evolved systems and enter them in Spectra's threat library.