Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

IAF pushed Rafale very hard but has realized its limits. Government does ask questions and iaf has to be ready with the answers.

I feel that any plane chosen as mrca will go much beyond 126 number. It makes sense to use this for building local industry.

Su30 may not increase in number if viable mrca appears.

Medium planes are usually required by countries that are not big, so MRCA is ok for European countries.
Indian requirement is to strike deep inside china, which MMRCA cannot do only Su-30 MKI can and as for Pakistan We can use both LCA and Su-30 MKI to strike targets in pakistan, What actually is the need of Medium? Also when you say medium.. we already have MiG-29 and Mirage 2000 which as per IAF definition comes in "Medium" MRCA so what is the need of more "medium"
IT has all to do with the range and capabilities and not about weight. LCA will handle all roles of MiG-21 and MiG-27 including air interception and Ground attack and strike. MiG-29 handles Tactical air superiority, Strike, Mirage 2000 handles tractical strike.. Su-30 MKI carries deep strike, SEAD/DEAD , Air dominance, So, why exactly do we need a Medium MRCA ? Countries like USA which is larger than us, they use F-15 for air dominance and strike and complimented by F-16 which , Russia uses mainly Su-27 and Su-30 and its variants a very few MiG-29s

If you see from the military point of view, whatever mix we have is a good one, Tejas in Air interceoption and strike and Su-30 in air dominance, deep strike, SEAD/DEAD, and with PAKFA/FGFA we further compliment this team with another plane that is 5th Gen and along with Su-30 MKI can bundle PAF on day 1

 

[garg_bharat]

@smestarz, Mig-23, Mig-27 and Jaguar are all classified as medium fighters. Mig-21 is a light fighter but its concept is outdated now.

The need to put defensive suites on fighters, and additional equipment for multi-role has increased the weight. Plus a viable combat range requirement. This tilts the lower end into "medium" category.

I hope it helps.

 

[smestarz]

@smestarz, Mig-23, Mig-27 and Jaguar are all classified as medium fighters. Mig-21 is a light fighter but its concept is outdated now.

The need to put defensive suites on fighters, and additional equipment for multi-role has increased the weight. Plus a viable combat range requirement. This tilts the lower end into "medium" category.

I hope it helps.

MiG-21 is an excellent Air interceptor, it can go from point A to Point B very fast, and see the armamemt, 4 pylons that housed AA-2 Atoll (IR heat seeking) but then due to evolution over period of time LCA is able to carry more varied weapons and missiles and hence not only able to do air interceptoon but more.

Jaguare and MiG 23/MiG-27 as FIGHTERS? Really? Can these planes really fight? Dog fight? These are designed to be only strike attack planes and if IAF calls them fighters, how more wrong can they be

 

[garg_bharat]

To bad upgrades are going on and without any Question,WHERE IS CAG ?

CAG are auditors. CAG only highlights discrepancies or irregularities. The action will be taken by people vested with executive powers.

The upgrade is a single vendor bid, so there is no way to find if price is optimum. Best it can be compared to mig29 upgrade which is 3 times cheaper.

You may hear from CAG if they find something, which may take some time as upgrade is very slow, something like 3 aircraft per year.

 

[BON PLAN]

Juppé seems to be the guy we need.

You're right Bro. .

 

[smestarz]

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...n-qatar-ties-help-fund-rafale-order/81760578/

Weird .. our rich Qataris friend needed Japanese banks loans for the down payment of their 24 Rafale. Wasn' t it simpler to sell Paris Saint Germain

The Japanese are sports fanatics but also one of the smarest businessmen, having interacted with them on numerous occasions , I know this for a fact. Japan has a lot of infrastrure projects with Qatar specially involved with the football world cup, Qatar is paying Japan with oil, so nothing the Japanese would be worried about.
PSG is a dead investment something that does not bring in returns on investment. very same with Rafale. So, Qatar is well versed with making dead investments, Japan is not,

As far as football team is considered, Japanese might be investing in historically proven teams such as Real Madrid, Manchester united, Liverpool which boast of pedigree, PSG are still not proven pedigree in Europe, they are somewhat like Chelsea or Manchester city, lot of cash but then fall well short of their goals

 

[BON PLAN]

Don't spew bullshit
You don't know enough about mmrca history

Even the aesa radar was only a prototype which was sent for evaluation

And of course you know MMRCA better.... Result was : Rafale L1. In one of the most serious tender.

Only the AESA antenna was a prototype, as the industrial production was in course. All the back of the radar (calculators, memory, software) was combat proven. It seems this radar was mature enough to persuade testers. And this AESA radar is operationnal since 3 years..... unlike L2.

 

[BON PLAN]

It is really funny, when you put that way. but then here goes,
1. Of the three contenders Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale, Gripen was the cheapest.
2. Buying same nos of Rafales would be more expensive to buy and to use over the life time, even 12 Rafale would be expensive to buy and use than 22 Gripen planes.
3. The Referendum rejected Gripen, but the people did not say "We want Rafale" did they?

Please try to understand details before you come here with Crap. But then you are french, so its understandable

Some other facts for you
1. The Swiss Government had confirmed plans to acquire 22 single-seater Gripen E fighters at an estimated cost of CHF3.1bn ($3.4bn) for the replacement of the national air force's ageing F-5 Tiger aircraft fleet in August 2012.
2 The national referendum called up by the Swiss Greens and the Liberal Greens parties. 53.4% of the voters reportedly opposed the purchase of jets, while 44% voted in favour of the transaction
3. They argued that the aircraft would cost CHF10bn ($11.3bn) over their lifetime, which could be spent on education, transport or pensions

So you can see that the referendum against Gripen was not pro Rafale, its just against Defence spending, But then these people know that switzerland does not have security concerns, it is safely protected on all sides by Strong European countries which are spending enough.

Since you did put this point, let me ask you, did the Swiss have a referendum to say "We want Rafale instead of Gripens?" I really would be interested to know.
During FIFA World cup 2014, there was arugment in Brazil that whatever they are spending on world cup infrastructure should have been spent on welfare of the citizens of Brazil, and there were protests outside each stadium before the match and it was there till the match ended.

Now, Gripen has sales problem in both Switzerland and Brazil, but then both of the countries are not saying.. "ok lets by Rafales" either.. they are just saying that "we do not need hi tech military hardware thats so expensive" maybe we can sell Tejas to Brazil.

It's like to say Mig 21 is more than 50% cheaper to operate than SU30. What a surprise !!!!

 

[garg_bharat]

MiG-21 is an excellent Air interceptor, it can go from point A to Point B very fast, and see the armamemt, 4 pylons that housed AA-2 Atoll (IR heat seeking) but then due to evolution over period of time LCA is able to carry more varied weapons and missiles and hence not only able to do air interceptoon but more.

Jaguare and MiG 23/MiG-27 as FIGHTERS? Really? Can these planes really fight? Dog fight? These are designed to be only strike attack planes and if IAF calls them fighters, how more wrong can they be

LCA was designed to replace Mig21, so that is a light point defence fighter. LCA has become a multirole fighter but still a light one with limited reach.

Mig 23, 27 and Jaguar are in a different weight class compared to Mig21. May be you can check the specs. Fighter is a generic word, which may have one or more of several capabilities like air interdiction, air superiority, CAS, ground attack etc.

 

[BON PLAN]

It is really funny, when you put that way. but then here goes,
1. Of the three contenders Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale, Gripen was the cheapest.
2. Buying same nos of Rafales would be more expensive to buy and to use over the life time, even 12 Rafale would be expensive to buy and use than 22 Gripen planes.
3. The Referendum rejected Gripen, but the people did not say "We want Rafale" did they?

Please try to understand details before you come here with Crap. But then you are french, so its understandable

Some other facts for you
1. The Swiss Government had confirmed plans to acquire 22 single-seater Gripen E fighters at an estimated cost of CHF3.1bn ($3.4bn) for the replacement of the national air force's ageing F-5 Tiger aircraft fleet in August 2012.
2 The national referendum called up by the Swiss Greens and the Liberal Greens parties. 53.4% of the voters reportedly opposed the purchase of jets, while 44% voted in favour of the transaction
3. They argued that the aircraft would cost CHF10bn ($11.3bn) over their lifetime, which could be spent on education, transport or pensions

So you can see that the referendum against Gripen was not pro Rafale, its just against Defence spending, But then these people know that switzerland does not have security concerns, it is safely protected on all sides by Strong European countries which are spending enough.

Since you did put this point, let me ask you, did the Swiss have a referendum to say "We want Rafale instead of Gripens?" I really would be interested to know.
During FIFA World cup 2014, there was arugment in Brazil that whatever they are spending on world cup infrastructure should have been spent on welfare of the citizens of Brazil, and there were protests outside each stadium before the match and it was there till the match ended.

Now, Gripen has sales problem in both Switzerland and Brazil, but then both of the countries are not saying.. "ok lets by Rafales" either.. they are just saying that "we do not need hi tech military hardware thats so expensive" maybe we can sell Tejas to Brazil.

I was just showing Rafale not so uncompetitive versus Gripen....

 

[Immanuel]

And of course you know MMRCA better.... Result was : Rafale L1. In one of the most serious tender.

Only the AESA antenna was a prototype, as the industrial production was in course. All the back of the radar (calculators, memory, software) was combat proven. It seems this radar was mature enough to persuade testers. And this AESA radar is operationnal since 3 years..... unlike L2.

Again stop being ridiculously stupid, Rafale was not L-1, if it was, the MRCA process wouldn't have been cancelled. The whole calculation to getting to L-1 was a farce because those bitches at Dassault had a whole bunch of hidden costs in the bid.

 

[BON PLAN]

You really do not understand the point that is made, yes?
The last govt which was in power for two terms is more or less now established to be the most corrupt govt India ever had.. There are already a lot of matters in the court about the various scams. Coal scam, 2G scams etc etc. Now there are many experts who did say that the Mirage 2000 upgrade is very very expensive. It was more expensive than the cost of Su-30 MKI, but IAF was hell bent to get the upgrade.. and its no surprise NAK Browne was there, this is incidentally the guy who also lied to Defence ministry that Piltus are cheaper to buyer and the price wont rise.. and also he is the person who gave the wrong figures that were used to calculate the LCC of Rafale and which two members of CNC signed but under written objection.
Now having said that, no sooiner the guy retired he was posted as Ambassador to Norway..

So, based on all these the new govt more or less has an idea that the rot is quite deep in the top brass of IAF too. And the govt has shown the IAF top brass that they are in charge of purchase and not IAF with clear notice that if you feel you cannot serve using the equipment given to you, you are free to leave.

Now if to put Mirage 2000 as a scam will directly involve some officers and hence it will also affect the morale of the air force (these lower officers are expected to be clean and patriotic) so in hindsight, it makes better sense to just ignore Dassault from future deals somewhat conveying "You took 5 billion dollars, make sure it lasts you a life time" Actually Dassault felt that the new govt will be same as old govt, the moment the French offer something, it will be accepted and signed... unfortunately for France and Dassault, you just have been too arrogant and for too long.. I foresee the Russians and Israelis get bigger share of defence market followed by USA, and France... non-existent in Indian defence scene .

Don't worry for me, I understand easily what a norrow mind like you explain.

 

[BON PLAN]

The Japanese are sports fanatics but also one of the smarest businessmen, having interacted with them on numerous occasions , I know this for a fact. Japan has a lot of infrastrure projects with Qatar specially involved with the football world cup, Qatar is paying Japan with oil, so nothing the Japanese would be worried about.
PSG is a dead investment something that does not bring in returns on investment. very same with Rafale. So, Qatar is well versed with making dead investments, Japan is not,

As far as football team is considered, Japanese might be investing in historically proven teams such as Real Madrid, Manchester united, Liverpool which boast of pedigree, PSG are still not proven pedigree in Europe, they are somewhat like Chelsea or Manchester city, lot of cash but then fall well short of their goals

For you, all involving France near or far is dead....

 

[BON PLAN]

Again stop being ridiculously stupid, Rafale was not L-1, if it was, the MRCA process wouldn't have been cancelled. The whole calculation to getting to L-1 was a farce because those bitches at Dassault had a whole bunch of hidden costs in the bid.

But it was L1 !

Problem was india underestimated cost of this program. ToT at such a high level, with a noob industry is a long and costly adventure.

Don't imagine india close discussion with Eurofighter Gmbh or Boeing or LM.... while bargaining with Dassault.

If there was a competitive alternative, sure after cancelling MMRCA, india would have clinch a deal with another supplier. But it was not the case.

 

[garg_bharat]

But it was L1 !

Problem was india underestimated cost of this program. ToT at such a high level, with a noob industry is a long and costly adventure.

Don't imagine india close discussion with Eurofighter Gmbh or Boeing or LM.... while bargaining with Dassault.

If there was a competitive alternative, sure after cancelling MMRCA, india would have clinch a deal with another supplier. But it was not the case.

I agree with you. Many unworkable assumptions were made by the previous government.

 

[garg_bharat]

The biggest difference now is that government is not forcing HAL on the foreign company. A foreign company can start a local subsidiary if it so wishes, or take an Indian partner it trusts.

It makes sense to build the planes in India due to large numbers (repeat orders are virtually assured).

 

[smestarz]

And of course you know MMRCA better.... Result was : Rafale L1. In one of the most serious tender.

Only the AESA antenna was a prototype, as the industrial production was in course. All the back of the radar (calculators, memory, software) was combat proven. It seems this radar was mature enough to persuade testers. And this AESA radar is operationnal since 3 years..... unlike L2.

As most people said many times, Rafale was assumed to be cheaper and hence given L1, but then since its supposed to be cheaper, why the negotiations is there about the price, Apparently the total cost was considered for selecting L1 .. LCC. So why is there such a big difference that the deal is not signed?

In Swiss, Gripen was so called L1 and also brazil too.. and we know what happened to the deals
dont expect Rafale to be signed by India...

 

[smestarz]

It's like to say Mig 21 is more than 50% cheaper to operate than SU30. What a surprise !!!!

Most single engine planes should be cheaper to operate than a twin engine plane. Further you dont really understand defence. You did say that you worked temporary in Dassault,, what was your area of expertise? Sanitation?
MiG-21 is way different plane than Su-30 MKI, air interceptor vs MRCA.. that different, but on other hand you are calling both Mirage 2000 and Rafale as MRCA..

 

[smestarz]

I was just showing Rafale not so uncompetitive versus Gripen....

Rafale is way too expensive than Gripen, The referendum against Gripen came because it will be expensive to buy, use and maintain, Rafale would ruin the swiss economy, specially with lot of countries wanting their black money back.

 

[Immanuel]

But it was L1 !

Problem was india underestimated cost of this program. ToT at such a high level, with a noob industry is a long and costly adventure.

Don't imagine india close discussion with Eurofighter Gmbh or Boeing or LM.... while bargaining with Dassault.

If there was a competitive alternative, sure after cancelling MMRCA, india would have clinch a deal with another supplier. But it was not the case.

Again stop pretending the French didn't know what they were getting into. The RFP was clear on a lot of things. Problem was the French lying through their costs all along. You bitches were always promising full TOT and source codes and promised to bid within the financial limits. Late into the dicsussion you folks suddenly go about talking about how HAL can't absorb tech. Let's be honest this whole deal was Hijacked once Dassault and France saw this as an opportuntity to milk India for all its got. Our PM made a noob mistake by allowing only Dassult to negotiate.