Know Your 'Rafale'

[wegweg]

"fearsome killer machine like the MIG35 for a fraction of the cost."
I missed that. Cancelled by Russian, some killer, but cheap as it doesn't exist and can't buy it.

 

[garg_bharat]

Mig 35 is resurrected. But iaf may not buy.
It seems that Gripen still has the best chance. It comes with the least political baggage.

However if the stalemate continues for couple more years, then I guess it is mig35. As money always finds other uses. A reduction in budget will kill other choices.

 

[BON PLAN]

Well, Russia has proven track record when it comes to dealing with India. With rance, not so much. The delay in Scorpene, the outrageous $3 billion upgrade of Mirage fleet and the latest horse-trading with Rafale. France doesn't generate much confidence I would say.

It's your opinion.
No delay with some russian ToT ? All ok?
Scorpene : Mazagaon Dock had to increase quality level. And it's because India is unhappy it want 3 to 6 more ?
Mirage upgrade : the cost was not a surprise. If india firm the deal there is a gooooood reason (and maybe some unofficial things....)

 

[BON PLAN]

We know that military deals are complicated and subject to political pressures. No surprise here.
It is a question of which government is easier to deal with. EU structure is complicated and the Indian government finds it very hard to get anything done with EU.

I hope it answers your question.

France is part of EU, not EU.
And it's why Eurofighter is made not by EU, but by several EUcountry, it's difficult to deal with, specially when there is ToT and human rights in question (not the case of india).

 

[Panjab47]

I hope deal won't materialize but it'll be obvious soon whether it will or not.

@BON PLAN
France should leave NATO, Jew Sarkozky has fd them over. Each engine of rafale is actually worse than kaveri in thrust..

Higher RCS of mki can be fixed by upgrading to super sukhoi which is probably just adding radar absorbing material.

 

[BON PLAN]

Very interesting post here
http://www.stratpost.com/an-alternate-theory-of-the-mmrca-process-i
http://www.stratpost.com/an-alternate-theory-of-the-mmrca-process-ii

I am sure a lot of people will debate this

Excuse me Bro, it's totally BS.

Speaking of Super Mirage 4000 in 2005, is a non sense. Super Mirage 4000 was not fully developped, as DA found no Customer, so the work to make it a true operationnal plane would be so important.... no radar fitted for it, engine at the end of life (M53)....

From the beginning, MMRCA was organised as first a technical choice of 2 planes, and after that a final choice on the more economical. Rafale and EF were the two which fullfield best the 600+ technical exigences. Rafale was declared L1 by a margin of 5 to 20% (depending sources).

AESA radar ? Rafale one was matured enough (because using the proven calculator units, just changing antennae). In this article they told about AESA Captor ready for 2015. We are in 2016 and no AESA Captor ready. mayb 2018.... and with a totally new, without maturity and feed back radar (RBE2 AESA has more that 15 years of improvements behind it).

Assumptions about some Rafale cost. Do you imagine for all the other planes there were no assumptions? All was clear? Sure not.

 

[BON PLAN]

I do not think Mistral has changed much in India. It may have made the government more cautious, that's about it.

The difference in Russia and France is like this. Russia is like a cheap tourist hotel so you pay accordingly and expect lousy service. France is like a five star hotel where you pay top dollar but expect five star service as well.

So any disappointment for delay, non-delivery etc. will be much higher in the case of France.

Selling Mistral (for which Spain Navantia at least was competing...) was seen as an apperture to russia. Political and geopolitical atmosphere has changed since.

 

[BON PLAN]

You can buy Chinese scale models. They have for every plane.

If EU breaks down as some expect now, and France runs out of money, then Rafale will sell for 1/3 of its current price. Could happen in less than five years. So patience is the key.

Dream Bro.
Next year a new Government in France, Republican style. Some harsh decisions will be taken in the 3 first months to improve labor market, cutting depenses, reducing debt.... Don't worry for us.
Until 5 years we will sell Rafale maybe not to India, but to EAU, Malysia, maybe Belgium and Switzerland..

 

[BON PLAN]

Mig 35 is resurrected. But iaf may not buy.
It seems that Gripen still has the best chance. It comes with the least political baggage.

However if the stalemate continues for couple more years, then I guess it is mig35. As money always finds other uses. A reduction in budget will kill other choices.

Gripen ? Never. It is in direct competition with Tejas, for the same purpose.

Your politics will support Tejas, and they are right.

 

[garg_bharat]

Selling Mistral (for which Spain Navantia at least was competing...) was seen as an apperture to russia. Political and geopolitical atmosphere has changed since.

I have asked you what changed? You say change but I don't see any.
I have already told you that Russia and Ukraine had many disputes (including Crimea) right from the word go at the time of dissolution of USSR.

There is no Russian black sea fleet without Crimea, as small coastline that Russia has is simply not defensible.

I hope your politicians are not such fools (or you have no strategic thought) not to foresee such simple things.

Same with India. Everybody knows bad blood between India and Pakistan; and UAE and Saudi support to Pakistan. If you sell any plane to Saudi/UAE, there is a fifty percent chance that plane will be used against India. Such things are well known.

When you make a deal, you do that in good faith. I am sorry if you do not understand even such simple logic.

 

[BON PLAN]

I hope deal won't materialize but it'll be obvious soon whether it will or not.

@BON PLAN
France should leave NATO, Jew Sarkozky has fd them over. Each engine of rafale is actually worse than kaveri in thrust..

Higher RCS of mki can be fixed by upgrading to super sukhoi which is probably just adding radar absorbing material.

Sarkozy a Jew? First time I read that. And even, it's not a shame. (personally I'm an atheist).

The Rafale engine is perfectly suited to the Rafale. And just wait 2018 for a 10% more power version.

Kaveri ? what Kaveri? installed in which plane? able to which thrust in high altitude? We even don't know it's actual weight and ground level power.
The best you will do with it is a turbo machine for ships.

 

[BON PLAN]

I have asked you what changed? You say change but I don't see any.
I have already told you that Russia and Ukraine had many disputes (including Crimea) right from the word go at the time of dissolution of USSR.

There is no Russian black sea fleet without Crimea, as small coastline that Russia has is simply not defensible.

I hope your politicians are not such fools (or you have no strategic thought) not to foresee such simple things.

Same with India. Everybody knows bad blood between India and Pakistan; and UAE and Saudi support to Pakistan. If you sell any plane to Saudi/UAE, there is a fifty percent chance that plane will be used against India. Such things are well known.

When you make a deal, you do that in good faith. I am sorry if you do not understand even such simple logic.

Ukraine has chose the west, against russia. This is a big change. We must help them.

 

[garg_bharat]

Ukraine has chose the west, against russia. This is a big change. We must help them.

Ok. So Russia was a friend (or at least worthy of your cooperation) before Ukraine chose to side with West. Now as Ukraine chose the West, Russia became an enemy. Is that the logic?

So tomorrow Ukraine unfriends West (probably on facebook), Russia becomes a friend again.

Your foreign policy is a flip-flop between Russia and Ukraine. Interesting foreign policy.

 

[garg_bharat]

Gripen ? Never. It is in direct competition with Tejas, for the same purpose.

Your politics will support Tejas, and they are right.

See if IAF thought Gripen is in competition with Tejas, they would not include it in the tender. The choices in the tender were preselected. Who will spend millions without any chance whatsoever of winning the tender?

So when you say Gripen is non-serious MMRCA contender, you make a mistake.

 

[wegweg]

So tomorrow Ukraine unfriends West (probably on facebook), Russia becomes a friend again.

You never cease to amaze me on a subject that you attempt to give an opinion.

Ukraine will never become friends with Russia again. The reason they were so close was becuase 6-10million plus Russian speakers were in the east of Ukraine. These now live in the areas controlled by Russia/DNR/LHR and most of the population have move to Russia. Ukraine is now mostly Ukranian only. The Russians have gone.

I

 

[BON PLAN]

I have asked you what changed? You say change but I don't see any.
I have already told you that Russia and Ukraine had many disputes (including Crimea) right from the word go at the time of dissolution of USSR.

There is no Russian black sea fleet without Crimea, as small coastline that Russia has is simply not defensible.

I hope your politicians are not such fools (or you have no strategic thought) not to foresee such simple things.

Same with India. Everybody knows bad blood between India and Pakistan; and UAE and Saudi support to Pakistan. If you sell any plane to Saudi/UAE, there is a fifty percent chance that plane will be used against India. Such things are well known.

When you make a deal, you do that in good faith. I am sorry if you do not understand even such simple logic.

S

Ok. So Russia was a friend (or at least worthy of your cooperation) before Ukraine chose to side with West. Now as Ukraine chose the West, Russia became an enemy. Is that the logic?

So tomorrow Ukraine unfriends West (probably on facebook), Russia becomes a friend again.

Your foreign policy is a flip-flop between Russia and Ukraine. Interesting foreign policy.

Russia a friend? not till Poutine is on top.

 

[BON PLAN]

See if IAF thought Gripen is in competition with Tejas, they would not include it in the tender. The choices in the tender were preselected. Who will spend millions without any chance whatsoever of winning the tender?

So when you say Gripen is non-serious MMRCA contender, you make a mistake.

I don't say it's not a serious contender. It is. But it's a light plane, and is in opposition to Tejas. And india need a strong Tejas, to build a strong Aerospace field within india.

 

[garg_bharat]

You never cease to amaze me on a subject that you attempt to give an opinion.

Ukraine will never become friends with Russia again. The reason they were so close was becuase 6-10million plus Russian speakers were in the east of Ukraine. These now live in the areas controlled by Russia/DNR/LHR and most of the population have move to Russia. Ukraine is now mostly Ukranian only. The Russians have gone.

I

That is just your opinion. The speed at which Ukrainians are becoming destitute, I won't be surprised if Ukraine merges with Russia few years down the road.

 

[garg_bharat]

I don't say it's not a serious contender. It is. But it's a light plane, and is in opposition to Tejas. And india need a strong Tejas, to build a strong Aerospace field within india.

Why did IAF keep a light plane as contender? Opposition to Tejas would have been thought in 2008 as Tejas was existing at that time.

The answer is Gripen meets IAF's requirements.

The range, payload etc. For gripen is much better compared to Tejas. Possibly Tejas mark 2 will catch up with gripen.

 

[garg_bharat]

I am not a gripen salesman. My only point is that the preselection was done on a certain criteria. The tech eval was after the plane met this criteria.

There are features which are must have and features which are nice to have.

The government gets to chose what it wants to pay for nice to have features.