Know Your 'Rafale'

[Superdefender]

@HariPrasad-1, I am not talking in air friend. On Feb 18 2016, Arup Raha himself said the first Rafale squadron in three years and the rest in 5-6 years if deal is to be signed in 2016. So we will get the last bird in 2025. I replied as you had posted before reboot.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

@HariPrasad-1, I am not talking in air friend. On Feb 18 2016, Arup Raha himself said the first Rafale squadron in three years and the rest in 5-6 years if deal is to be signed in 2016. So we will get the last bird in 2025. I replied as you had posted before reboot.

Ok but than first squadron by latest 2019. Do you agree? If we go for home made production of rest 16 than it will take time. However if we go for outright purchase than it should not take more than 1.5 years. We can not produce them in house for 16 quantity so only option left is purchase. So it should come by 2020.

 

[Illusive]

Lot of info gone .

 

[WolfPack86]

Lot of info gone .

What happened to the thread where are the photos

 

[Superdefender]

Ok but than first squadron by latest 2019. Do you agree? If we go for home made production of rest 16 than it will take time. However if we go for outright purchase than it should not take more than 1.5 years. We can not produce them in house for 16 quantity so only option left is purchase. So it should come by 2020.

After DPP activates since 1 week, do you think they will outright purchase all 36?

 

[Illusive]

What happened to the thread where are the photos

In chit chat thread @LurkerBaba mentioned data from april 1 to today has lost due to technical issues.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

After DPP activates since 1 week, do you think they will outright purchase all 36?

I have all reason to belive that making 18 planes in India is nort affordable.

 

[Superdefender]

I have all reason to belive that making 18 planes in India is nort affordable.

It is very surprising that people are not taking Raha's statement seriously who is the chief of AF.

 

[gadeshi]

That's nonsense. The FGFA won't be in service for another decade at least and neither it nor the LC take care of the MMRCA requirement- the FGFA is too large, expensive and ill suited to strike missions and the LCA was never meant to be used for that and has too limited a range and sensor suite. The news about a second fighter line is the DM's attempt at playing tough but none of the options (SAAB, LM or Boeing) are attractive in the slightest.

FGFA is ill suited to strike missions

Are you nuts?
A plane can carry internally 4 heavy ARMs with 250km range (Kh-58UShK), 2 supersonic tactical missiles (Kh-66 Grom-1 - 130km starting from 100m and 250km starting from 5km) or gliding bombs (Kh-66P Grom-2) or KAB series bombs up to 500kg and the best part - up to 4 Kh-59M2 ALCMs (1000km for Russian internal usage, 290km export and 350km "Indian Special" export version).
All of these "presents" allow supersonic delivery on any altitude.
T-50 has 1800km combat radius with normal payload of 4500kg internally on internal fuel only, 800km from them - on supercruise.
If it is ill-suited strike configuration then you are nuts for sure.

FGFA is too expensive

FGFA is full scale G5 heavy figher and it costs $100M per unit including training and initial weapons pack. A wide TOT and Make in India deals proposed (for extra money, but...).
Rafale is G4 medium fighter with rather modest supersonic envelope and it costs $130M per unit without weapons, training and service. And no TOT allowed.
What a lucrative deal

 

[abingdonboy]

Are you nuts?
A plane can carry internally 4 heavy ARMs with 250km range (Kh-58UShK), 2 supersonic tactical missiles (Kh-66 Grom-1 - 130km starting from 100m and 250km starting from 5km) or gliding bombs (Kh-66P Grom-2) or KAB series bombs up to 500kg and the best part - up to 4 Kh-59M2 ALCMs (1000km for Russian internal usage, 290km export and 350km "Indian Special" export version).
All of these "presents" allow supersonic delivery on any altitude.
T-50 has 1800km combat radius with normal payload of 4500kg internally on internal fuel only, 800km from them - on supercruise.
If it is ill-suited strike configuration then you are nuts for sure.

FGFA is full scale G5 heavy figher and it costs $100M per unit including training and initial weapons pack. A wide TOT and Make in India deals proposed (for extra money, but...).
Rafale is G4 medium fighter with rather modest supersonic envelope and it costs $130M per unit without weapons, training and service. And no TOT allowed.
What a lucrative deal

The FGFA, like its predesscor the Su-27/30 series, is an optimised Air dominace fighter with some multi-role capability. It isn't a low level deep penertrating strike aircraft like the Rafale- it never was meant to be. There is a reason the IAF designates their MKIs as "Air dominace" birds and started the MMRCA competition.

+ As for the price, this is all hypothetical- the FGFA is yet to even fly yet so how can we know how much it is going to cost a decade from now? And you are crazy if you think that in 2025 (when the IAF will get its first FGFA) that it will cost anything less than $160 million and not just the upfront costs are going to be high but a 5th gen fighter of this size is going to be ENOURMOUSLY expensive to maintain. I wouldn't be surprised if it cost double a Rafale per flight hour and spent 75% more time on the ground under maintainence. The F-22 is known to be a hanger queen because of its stealth coatings, advanced systems and pwoerful engines so the Russians, who are known to have, on average, less reliable equipment will no doubt have similar issues for the FGFA.

 

[BON PLAN]

I think the only unknown is AESA radar on Mig-35. The rest is familiar, equipment that is already on Mig-29K.
Mig-35 is just a designation of Mig-29 derivative. It is not a new aircraft.

More fuel internal capacity => new airframe => to be fully certified.

I'm not sure the AESA radar is mature also.

 

[gadeshi]

The FGFA, like its predesscor the Su-27/30 series, is an optimised Air dominace fighter with some multi-role capability. It isn't a low level deep penertrating strike aircraft like the Rafale- it never was meant to be. There is a reason the IAF designates their MKIs as "Air dominace" birds and started the MMRCA competition.
+ As for the price, this is all hypothetical- the FGFA is yet to even fly yet so how can we know how much it is going to cost a decade from now? And you are crazy if you think that in 2025 (when the IAF will get its first FGFA) that it will cost anything less than $160 million and not just the upfront costs are going to be high but a 5th gen fighter of this size is going to be ENOURMOUSLY expensive to maintain. I wouldn't be surprised if it cost double a Rafale per flight hour and spent 75% more time on the ground under maintainence. The F-22 is known to be a hanger queen because of its stealth coatings, advanced systems and pwoerful engines so the Russians, who are known to have, on average, less reliable equipment will no doubt have similar issues for the FGFA.

Donno about IAF ground service quality, but as we can see from Russian experience, Russians make planes (and the other weapons) for a real hell-intensive war, not for shows and merchandise.
You could see strikes and flights intensity of any VKS type in Syria...
So, PAK FA will be 30% less ground service-demanding bird and 15-20% less costly to maintain than any of T-10 derivative. BTW, those service and cost reductions were one of the key parts of Russian G5 requirements.

 

[gadeshi]

PAK FA in Russian VKS will not be a strike workhorse, yes, but its primary role is FDOW interdictor (first day of war interdictor to ensure A2/AD) as a first priority and force multipliers destroyer as a second.

 

[abingdonboy]

Donno about IAF ground service quality, but as we can see from Russian experience, Russians make planes (and the other weapons) for a real hell-intensive war, not for shows and merchandise.
So, PAK FA will be 30% less ground service-demanding bird and 15-20% less costly to maintain than any of T-10 derivative. BTW, those service and cost reductions were one of the key parts of Russian G5 requirements.

Lol blaming the IAF for long standing deficiencies in Russian hardware and aftersales service? Sukhoi ( Russian OEM) has said the best possible availabilty rate they can get the IAF's MKI fleet to meet is 75%, on the other hand the Rafale will come with 90% assured availabilty. Whilst the Il-76 remains a hanger queen, Boeing signed a legally binding contract that the IAF's C-17 fleet will have a minimum 85% availabilty at any time. Russia has always suffered in this regard and NO WAY does a 5th gen fighter see a reduction in servicing issues, if anything they are going to increase many fold.

 

[gadeshi]

Lol blaming the IAF for long standing deficiencies in Russian hardware and aftersales service? Sukhoi ( Russian OEM) has said the best possible availabilty rate they can get the IAF's MKI fleet to meet is 75%, on the other hand the Rafale will come with 90% assured availabilty. Whilst the Il-76 remains a hanger queen, Boeing signed a legally binding contract that the IAF's C-17 fleet will have a minimum 85% availabilty at any time. Russia has always suffered in this regard and NO WAY does a 5th gen fighter see a reduction in servicing issues, if anything they are going to increase many fold.

Dude, Rafale has 35% avaliability in France!!! A new aircrafts park!!!
Compare it to 25-30 years old Su-24M2 park avaliability as 65%.

 

[abingdonboy]

Dude, Rafale has 35% avaliability in France!!! A new aircrafts park!!!
Compare it to 25-30 years old Su-24M2 park avaliability as 65%.

35%? That's crap man, utter crap.

@BON PLAN @Tactical Frog @Gabriel92 @PARIKRAMA @Gessler

 

[Zebra]

^^
Anything about availability of Russian MBTs and Russian helicopters.....!......?

 

[Bahamut]

A prototyp. How many time to traduce it in a mature plane? 4/5 years.
At the end of this year it's only a pre serial plane that is coming. Like Rafale M1 to M10..... and they are all being rebuilt.

I agree Mig 35 is not mature but most of the technology being used in it has been tested in Su 35 and Mig 29K2 and technology is has been commercial available ,unlike Rafale where technology had to be developed by scratch.Is there a GaN variant of AESR radar,from what I know the ASER use GaAs ?

 

[gadeshi]

^^
Anything about availability of Russian MBTs and Russian helicopters.....!......?

Sergey Shoigu has reported 75% in Army (tanks, IFVs, artillery) last December.
It is planned to increase it up to 90% in 2016.
Why to ask if you can see sudden inspections, where whole military district (3 Armies) can be scrambled and moved to another parts of Russia for less than 3 days?
Half of Russian army is combat-ready in 3 hours after the order while Immediate Reaction Forces in NATO require 3 days to react
And those "immediate forces" are rare - not more than a brigade (or even battalion) for a country.
The rest of the NATO require from 3 weeks to 3 months to become combat ready
They will be ready when Russian tanks will wash their tracks in LaManche

 

[Bahamut]

More fuel internal capacity => new airframe => to be fully certified.

I'm not sure the AESA radar is mature also.

Mig 35 is a improvement of Mig 29 K2 and Mig 29 K2 ,and the new air frame had completed tested,the Mig 35 prototypes that are being build are Mig 35S or Serries ,Taylor made for RuAF requirement .