Know Your 'Rafale'

[smestarz]

Don't worry for me, I understand easily what a norrow mind like you explain.

Why would I worry about you? Do not rate yourself so high
Then I guess its between narrow brain of mine and non existent brain of yours.

The problem with French is you are hippocrites. You promote corruption, but still say "we are clean, we never give kickbacks" As I did post before, why does a French president have an account in tax haven? No banks in France? And if your president can have a bank account in tax havenm and the French not really knowing it, then its anyones guess why it was done so. By the way there are many news where some of your french politicians were involved in bribes.. So where did the money for bribes come from? Its not official money (no one puts accounts like.. money for paying off sakozy... " do they?

 

[smestarz]

For you, all involving France near or far is dead....

Do you want me to take CAT scan of the deal and confirm its dead??
And based on what is learnt by Mirage 2000 upgrade... it will be the case.

 

[Tactical Frog]

It is really funny, when you put that way. but then here goes,
1. Of the three contenders Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale, Gripen was the cheapest.
2. Buying same nos of Rafales would be more expensive to buy and to use over the life time, even 12 Rafale would be expensive to buy and use than 22 Gripen planes.
3. The Referendum rejected Gripen, but the people did not say "We want Rafale" did they?

Please try to understand details before you come here with Crap. But then you are french, so its understandable

Some other facts for you
1. The Swiss Government had confirmed plans to acquire 22 single-seater Gripen E fighters at an estimated cost of CHF3.1bn ($3.4bn) for the replacement of the national air force's ageing F-5 Tiger aircraft fleet in August 2012.
2 The national referendum called up by the Swiss Greens and the Liberal Greens parties. 53.4% of the voters reportedly opposed the purchase of jets, while 44% voted in favour of the transaction
3. They argued that the aircraft would cost CHF10bn ($11.3bn) over their lifetime, which could be spent on education, transport or pensions

So you can see that the referendum against Gripen was not pro Rafale, its just against Defence spending, But then these people know that switzerland does not have security concerns, it is safely protected on all sides by Strong European countries which are spending enough.

Since you did put this point, let me ask you, did the Swiss have a referendum to say "We want Rafale instead of Gripens?" I really would be interested to know.
During FIFA World cup 2014, there was arugment in Brazil that whatever they are spending on world cup infrastructure should have been spent on welfare of the citizens of Brazil, and there were protests outside each stadium before the match and it was there till the match ended.

Now, Gripen has sales problem in both Switzerland and Brazil, but then both of the countries are not saying.. "ok lets by Rafales" either.. they are just saying that "we do not need hi tech military hardware thats so expensive" maybe we can sell Tejas to Brazil.

Never said the referendum was pro-Rafale .. I am just trying to help you realize that there was no way you got brand new Gripens for each upgraded Mirage 2000, as you were trying to convince us. Looking at actual deals for getting an idea of a cost of an airplane helps to debunk myths.

 

[smestarz]

But it was L1 !

Problem was india underestimated cost of this program. ToT at such a high level, with a noob industry is a long and costly adventure.

Don't imagine india close discussion with Eurofighter Gmbh or Boeing or LM.... while bargaining with Dassault.

If there was a competitive alternative, sure after cancelling MMRCA, india would have clinch a deal with another supplier. But it was not the case.

now the things look more clear.

The idea was first to elimiate the 4 usual suspects

a) MiG-35 because they wanted a western plane (IAF is on record saying that, so was MiG-35 really tested fairly??

b) F-16 , F/A-18 because they are American planes (again question of fairness)

c) Gripen,, because its single engine and would come with American Veto as it has american engine

Technically they elimnated all the cheaper planes first itself and selected two expensive ones.

Then from the two, they wanted to find L1, Eurofighter gave all the data, but Dassault bid was incomplete. so the question is, why was incomplete bid considered? At this point of time NAK Browne steps in and gives the figures which are assumed.. thus the assumption is done by the indians,, Dassault gave an incomplete bid.

So based on wrongly assumed figures, Rafale was declared L1.

Also another funny thing that IAF did was it did not keep any chance to discuss with L2 in case the discussion with L1 stalled, like now.

This was done to ensure that by hook or crook, India would buy Rafale at what the hell it costs because IAF WANTS IT.

But now, the new govt has called IAF bluff, and the DM is more techno savvy and IAF now are caught literally with their pants down..

Already what the earlier IAF chief used to blatantly say "Rafale" is now uttered as "MMRCA type plane"

The cost was not underestimated, all the details were given in RFP, but Dassault wass guided by the corrupt top brass in IAF who guided them well through the process. Even once Dassault was officially declared as out, so why was it back in the race?

India at present is "discussing" with Dassault for 36 planes only
But in the mean time it is discussing with Boeing and Gripen for make in india initiative (which is different from these 36)

Now if teh order for 36 is not concluded, then the IAF does not get Rafales due to price, so then the only possibility for IAF is to take plane from choice of Tejas or the other Make in India project.

 

[smestarz]

But it was L1 !

Problem was india underestimated cost of this program. ToT at such a high level, with a noob industry is a long and costly adventure.

Don't imagine india close discussion with Eurofighter Gmbh or Boeing or LM.... while bargaining with Dassault.

If there was a competitive alternative, sure after cancelling MMRCA, india would have clinch a deal with another supplier. But it was not the case.

now the things look more clear.

The idea was first to elimiate the 4 usual suspects

a) MiG-35 because they wanted a western plane (IAF is on record saying that, so was MiG-35 really tested fairly??

b) F-16 , F/A-18 because they are American planes (again question of fairness)

c) Gripen,, because its single engine and would come with American Veto as it has american engine

Technically they elimnated all the cheaper planes first itself and selected two expensive ones.

Then from the two, they wanted to find L1, Eurofighter gave all the data, but Dassault bid was incomplete. so the question is, why was incomplete bid considered? At this point of time NAK Browne steps in and gives the figures which are assumed.. thus the assumption is done by the indians,, Dassault gave an incomplete bid.

So based on wrongly assumed figures, Rafale was declared L1.

Also another funny thing that IAF did was it did not keep any chance to discuss with L2 in case the discussion with L1 stalled, like now.

This was done to ensure that by hook or crook, India would buy Rafale at what the hell it costs because IAF WANTS IT.

But now, the new govt has called IAF bluff, and the DM is more techno savvy and IAF now are caught literally with their pants down..

Already what the earlier IAF chief used to blatantly say "Rafale" is now uttered as "MMRCA type plane"

The cost was not underestimated, all the details were given in RFP, but Dassault wass guided by the corrupt top brass in IAF who guided them well through the process. Even once Dassault was officially declared as out, so why was it back in the race?

India at present is "discussing" with Dassault for 36 planes only
But in the mean time it is discussing with Boeing and Gripen for make in india initiative (which is different from these 36)

Now if teh order for 36 is not concluded, then the IAF does not get Rafales due to price, so then the only possibility for IAF is to take plane from choice of Tejas or the other Make in India project.

 

[salute]

Unless India is starting to make crazy things ( which it has never done in the past), why on Earth would France sanction India ? You are not going to annex Mauritius ? We care for Mauritius .

india likes to annex mauritius with hugh indian ethnicity and hindu major country with half the population is hindu,

india requires those islands for maritime security of india,its indias little ocean.

 

[BON PLAN]

Rafale is way too expensive than Gripen, The referendum against Gripen came because it will be expensive to buy, use and maintain, Rafale would ruin the swiss economy, specially with lot of countries wanting their black money back.

Rafale would ruin Swiss economy ???

And not F18?

Be assured swiss economy is strong, and it's not 22 fighters that will affect that.

 

[BON PLAN]

Why would I worry about you? Do not rate yourself so high
Then I guess its between narrow brain of mine and non existent brain of yours.

The problem with French is you are hippocrites. You promote corruption, but still say "we are clean, we never give kickbacks" As I did post before, why does a French president have an account in tax haven? No banks in France? And if your president can have a bank account in tax havenm and the French not really knowing it, then its anyones guess why it was done so. By the way there are many news where some of your french politicians were involved in bribes.. So where did the money for bribes come from? Its not official money (no one puts accounts like.. money for paying off sakozy... " do they?

NO. We gave kickbacks many many years ago. Now it's more difficult, as money is traced (but impossible? I don't know... )

 

[BON PLAN]

now the things look more clear.

The idea was first to elimiate the 4 usual suspects

a) MiG-35 because they wanted a western plane (IAF is on record saying that, so was MiG-35 really tested fairly??

b) F-16 , F/A-18 because they are American planes (again question of fairness)

c) Gripen,, because its single engine and would come with American Veto as it has american engine

Technically they elimnated all the cheaper planes first itself and selected two expensive ones.

Then from the two, they wanted to find L1, Eurofighter gave all the data, but Dassault bid was incomplete. so the question is, why was incomplete bid considered? At this point of time NAK Browne steps in and gives the figures which are assumed.. thus the assumption is done by the indians,, Dassault gave an incomplete bid.

So based on wrongly assumed figures, Rafale was declared L1.

Also another funny thing that IAF did was it did not keep any chance to discuss with L2 in case the discussion with L1 stalled, like now.

This was done to ensure that by hook or crook, India would buy Rafale at what the hell it costs because IAF WANTS IT.

But now, the new govt has called IAF bluff, and the DM is more techno savvy and IAF now are caught literally with their pants down..

Already what the earlier IAF chief used to blatantly say "Rafale" is now uttered as "MMRCA type plane"

The cost was not underestimated, all the details were given in RFP, but Dassault wass guided by the corrupt top brass in IAF who guided them well through the process. Even once Dassault was officially declared as out, so why was it back in the race?

India at present is "discussing" with Dassault for 36 planes only
But in the mean time it is discussing with Boeing and Gripen for make in india initiative (which is different from these 36)

Now if teh order for 36 is not concluded, then the IAF does not get Rafales due to price, so then the only possibility for IAF is to take plane from choice of Tejas or the other Make in India project.

To date, no prototyp of Mig 35 is built (intended for end of the year), and after that you have to work it out. Saying 3 years at least....

US planes : OK.

Gripen : not possible because of Tejas (too near).

Stay : Rafale and EF.

 

[smestarz]

Never said the referendum was pro-Rafale .. I am just trying to help you realize that there was no way you got brand new Gripens for each upgraded Mirage 2000, as you were trying to convince us. Looking at actual deals for getting an idea of a cost of an airplane helps to debunk myths.

Why the swiss put a referendum against Gripen was not something like ".... we prefer plane R and not plane G.." but rather like ".... buying and using the plane is going to be expensive, let us use that money on public welfare..." I am not pro-gripen, but I would put myself as anti-rafale (for India) If others buy Rafale its their concern and its good for them and for France,

Now basically that would bring me to two different stories, Tales of two countries.
A) like you said UBER RICH SWISS, Who do not have immediate threats, but are also in relative peace, and their citizens want to cancel the deal for Gripen for US$ 2.55 billion, as they say that it could cost them abt 11 billion to use and maintain them over 30 years and this money should be used for public welfare.. and honestly I appreciate the Swiss, they have such a system.

but on other hand you have Egypt.

B) A country that went through Arab spring, had a president who was ousted by the Army , whose chief is now the President, the country is in economic problems and mess. There are no wars that the country has or no immediate external threat, but the economy is down, there is hunger and inflation, and the president gets loan from an Arab country, to fund about US$ 9 billion deal, the cost of using these Rafales over the next 30 years should be more than US$ 45 billion. Its not that Egypt has planes as old as Swiss (Swiss have the older F-5 which they want to retire, and Egypt is having the newer F-16s

So, with you bringing the question of Swiss referendum, does again make me ask my question, Does Egypt really need Rafales? Its not that it has threat which cannot be handled by the 150 odd F-16, And the order comes specially when Egypt is on its knees thanks to the revolution in past few years and there is shortage of food and jobs, where the ruling president within last few weeks said "..I would sell myself if I could to get money for Egypt .." so what was his urgency to buy Rafale, Could the money not be used for creating jobs and stability..

Thats the difference between a logical and real democracy of Switzerland, and mobocracy/dictatorship of Egypt which in a way has French blessings and support.. We are actually seeing rise of indirect colonialism

 

[smestarz]

To date, no prototyp of Mig 35 is built (intended for end of the year), and after that you have to work it out. Saying 3 years at least....

US planes : OK.

Gripen : not possible because of Tejas (too near).

Stay : Rafale and EF.

Few things I need to correct you,
MiG-35 has both prototype and it flies, and it has flown even at Aero India.
Also IAF did evaluate a flying MiG-35 during the testing of the 6 planes,

I am very sure now that you really do lack a brain, The reason is how exactly did IAF give the performance report of MiG-35 if they did not fly a MiG-35 to test? And when they have MiG-35 to test, means they have a prototype .. should we blame this to you not understanding english and coming with stupid comments? Or do I excuse you just for being French?


The Reason the RFP was made for MRCA is that Tejas was not ready, that time GTRE was having problem with Kaveri, and since Tejas was supposed to fly with DOMESTIC ENGINE, hence no engine, no Tejas. And HAL was hell bent on getting Tejas with GTRE engine.

The earlier reason for RFI was to have planes (Mirage 2000-5) to replace MiG-21, but then the GoI decided that Mirage 2000-5 is much modern Mirage and hence it cannot be considered as a "follow on" order and so for the 125 planes we need to have an RFP., The earlier RFP brought in Mirage 2000-5, F-16, Gripen, MiG-35. The IAF ASQR had put the higher weight limit at 20 Tons, but then IAF (And Dassault) realised that the game was up, because no way they could beat the likes of F-16, Gripen, F/A-18 or MiG-35 in performance, avionics or price. and thats when IAF changed the ASQR to allow the entry of Rafale, And then the MRCA which was to bring in 126 planes to replace MiG-21 in IAF ended up becoming MMRCA to help Rafale to try and get into the picture.

But even in this case, Gripen is considered MRCA, based on the weight limits put by revered IAF. Gripen is heavy than even Mirage 2000 and Mirage 2000 as per IAF is MRCA and possibly NOT LIGHT.

 

[Bahamut]

To date, no prototyp of Mig 35 is built (intended for end of the year), and after that you have to work it out. Saying 3 years at least

Mig 35 has a open modular platform so a prototype is needed for each customer as the plane will be vastly different and require a complete test phase .The latest Mig 35 are for RuAF and both the single seat and double seat plane have same airframe and can be converted by adding a fuel tank in place of second pilot.

 

[smestarz]

NO. We gave kickbacks many many years ago. Now it's more difficult, as money is traced (but impossible? I don't know... )

Lol, We indians know how to manage kickbacks, possibly we have the most money in Swiss bank, it is said that the mere interest of the Indian black money for a year is enough to let Swiss economy stable for few years.

Rafale would ruin Swiss economy ???

And not F18?

Be assured swiss economy is strong, and it's not 22 fighters that will affect that.

Again you did not read the entire post correctly. since you are French or just cannot handle english language?
maybe 50% of both in your case.
With all the countries asking their black money back, the swiss would not have all the money that they have, India itself is supposed to have close to trillion of dollars in Swiss banks. The interest on that money itself would be in billions of dollars. Now if all countries took back the money from Swiss banks, how would it affect them? The swiss currency will certainly become weak, their exports are limited. So when you lose billions of hidden money, which Switzerland banks lend to others and make interest, is gone then how would the economy work? Switzerland has more people above 50 than below 50.

When the Swiss people have to bring in referendum to try and save 2.55 billion dollars, as that would lead to expense of about 11 billion dollars in next 30 years.. how does that look..
Maybe you should tell the swiss that their economy is strong..

And its funny when the French throw in the hat and say "for say 300 million dollar less, we can give you 18 planes, , did the French calculate the cost of using these 18 rafales over the next 30 years?
If buying and using 22 Gripen is a problem then surely 18 Rafales is bigger problem , the issue is not the plane, but the cost of buying and using the plane for next 30 years.

I think they really have a problem in France understanding the real issues.

 

[smestarz]

To date, no prototyp of Mig 35 is built (intended for end of the year), and after that you have to work it out. Saying 3 years at least....

US planes : OK.

Gripen : not possible because of Tejas (too near).

Stay : Rafale and EF.

Here is a link just for you
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mig35/

Aero India 2007 launch
The final version of MiG-35 was displayed for the first time at Aero India 2007. The prototype of the MiG-35 had been shown to the public in 2005 at air shows in Russia and the UK. MiG-35 is a contender to the Eurofighter Typhoon, F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale, JAS 39 Gripen and F-16 Falcon for the bid of more than 126 multirole combat aircraft worth $10bn to be procured by the Indian Air Force in Indian MRCA competition.

 

[BON PLAN]

Or do I excuse you just for being French?

I report you. It's enough. You have right not to agree, but not to insult member of this forum. And you always do.

 

[BON PLAN]

should we blame this to you not understanding english and coming with stupid comments

Don't worry for me. I understand english well enough to anderstand you always said same things, and specialy false one.

 

[BON PLAN]

Gripen is heavy than even Mirage 2000 and Mirage 2000 as per IAF is MRCA and possibly NOT LIGHT.

Another proof you doesn't mastered the topic.
Mirage 2000 is heavier than Gripen. Only Gripen NG will match (to see when finished) M2000 full weight.

 

[BON PLAN]

Mig 35 has a open modular platform so a prototype is needed for each customer as the plane will be vastly different and require a complete test phase .The latest Mig 35 are for RuAF and both the single seat and double seat plane have same airframe and can be converted by adding a fuel tank in place of second pilot.

A prototyp. How many time to traduce it in a mature plane? 4/5 years.
At the end of this year it's only a pre serial plane that is coming. Like Rafale M1 to M10..... and they are all being rebuilt.

 

[garg_bharat]

A prototyp. How many time to traduce it in a mature plane? 4/5 years.
At the end of this year it's only a pre serial plane that is coming. Like Rafale M1 to M10..... and they are all being rebuilt.

I think the only unknown is AESA radar on Mig-35. The rest is familiar, equipment that is already on Mig-29K.
Mig-35 is just a designation of Mig-29 derivative. It is not a new aircraft.

 

[LurkerBaba]

@smestarz tread lightly you have been warned. Don't attack a poster's nationality