Know Your 'Rafale'

[garg_bharat]

S

Russia a friend? not till Poutine is on top.

I wanted to post dozens of news reports of your leaders hobnobbing with Putin, but just avoiding the temptation.

 

[smestarz]

It's your opinion.
No delay with some russian ToT ? All ok?
Scorpene : Mazagaon Dock had to increase quality level. And it's because India is unhappy it want 3 to 6 more ?
Mirage upgrade : the cost was not a surprise. If india firm the deal there is a gooooood reason (and maybe some unofficial things....)

There was scam also noted with Scorpene deal, Sure there is delay wtih Russian ToT, but then in terms of ToT , both Russia and France are same, the Russian products are cheap and value for money, and the French cost an arm and leg..

Indian Navy is keen to order more, the reason is not that its excellent, but because thats already under production and so the knowledge and experience is already there and so faster to build the same model. A newver model is better of course but then again there are ToT and other delays..

About Mirage 2000 upgrade, there are a lot of kickbacks involved specially when the cost of upgrade for a plane is same as buying Gripen at flyway costs that too with 30 years air frame life.

 

[smestarz]

I hope deal won't materialize but it'll be obvious soon whether it will or not.

@BON PLAN
France should leave NATO, Jew Sarkozky has fd them over. Each engine of rafale is actually worse than kaveri in thrust..

Higher RCS of mki can be fixed by upgrading to super sukhoi which is probably just adding radar absorbing material.

The deal is already in the proverbial coffin, just a few nails need to be hammered in.
Su-30 MKI is a big plane, but then has better range, better warload + fuel. In a way it surpasses Rafale in most roles. Rafale is better in terms of avionics, and the cockpit of Su-30 MKI is not one of the best.
Su-30 MKI has not been upgraded since it was produced. Rafale (the less than 120 nos) are already in F-3R tranche to so say, thus the developments have come fast, but now, with less orders on the horizon, the development would become too expensive if there is no potential buyer. Would UAE buy 36 Rafales at that exhorbitant cost? They might go for F-15 SE or maybe F/A-18.. surely USA can give a better price for UAE.

Super Sukhoi capability, a lot of things would be coming like the AESA, ability to carry Brahmos A, also the cockpit is to be upgraded to be something resembling PAKFA (with better data fusion) there is always the Khibiny Pod as self protection jammers at wingtips

But in all honestly, I do expect the IAF to put spanner in the works and try and convince the MoD that Sukhoi upgraded to Super sukhoi will not help the capability of IAF, and that the cost will be too exorbitant ..
When IAF brass is questioned about the cost of upgrade of Mirage 2000 upgrade and what improvement in life and capability it brings, expect IAF to keep mum

 

[Tactical Frog]

http://www.defensenews.com/story/de...n-qatar-ties-help-fund-rafale-order/81760578/

Weird .. our rich Qataris friend needed Japanese banks loans for the down payment of their 24 Rafale. Wasn' t it simpler to sell Paris Saint Germain

 

[BON PLAN]

That is just your opinion. The speed at which Ukrainians are becoming destitute, I won't be surprised if Ukraine merges with Russia few years down the road.

Your imagination is rich !!! on this subject like on... Yes, Rafale. (which is the toppic)

 

[BON PLAN]

There was scam also noted with Scorpene deal, Sure there is delay wtih Russian ToT, but then in terms of ToT , both Russia and France are same, the Russian products are cheap and value for money, and the French cost an arm and leg..

Indian Navy is keen to order more, the reason is not that its excellent, but because thats already under production and so the knowledge and experience is already there and so faster to build the same model. A newver model is better of course but then again there are ToT and other delays..

About Mirage 2000 upgrade, there are a lot of kickbacks involved specially when the cost of upgrade for a plane is same as buying Gripen at flyway costs that too with 30 years air frame life.

Of course.... if you take more it is only because already on production.

Is it so hard for you ta say at least one french product may be excellent? At the end your attitude is laughable.

 

[smestarz]

Like I said, there was no need to upgrade Mirage 2000 at such a high price when a brand new Gripen was available at almost the same price... that my friend smells like Scam..
Apparently only the french were laughing all the way to the bank, but then the rot was stemmed there itself and the fall out as it may seem, cancellation of MMRCA... now.. just the official nail is awaited

 

[Bahamut]

Like I said, there was no need to upgrade Mirage 2000 at such a high price when a brand new Gripen was available at almost the same price... that my friend smells like Scam..
Apparently only the french were laughing all the way to the bank, but then the rot was stemmed there itself and the fall out as it may seem, cancellation of MMRCA... now.. just the official nail is awaited

To bad upgrades are going on and without any Question.

 

[Bahamut]

Like I said, there was no need to upgrade Mirage 2000 at such a high price when a brand new Gripen was available at almost the same price... that my friend smells like Scam..
Apparently only the french were laughing all the way to the bank, but then the rot was stemmed there itself and the fall out as it may seem, cancellation of MMRCA... now.. just the official nail is awaited

To bad upgrades are going on and without any Question,WHERE IS CAG ?

 

[Tactical Frog]

Like I said, there was no need to upgrade Mirage 2000 at such a high price when a brand new Gripen was available at almost the same price... that my friend smells like Scam..
Apparently only the french were laughing all the way to the bank, but then the rot was stemmed there itself and the fall out as it may seem, cancellation of MMRCA... now.. just the official nail is awaited

If the Gripen was so cheap, why did uber wealthy Swiss voters reject the deal ? Smart guy, I am waiting for your answer.
22 Gripen = € 2,55 billion = $ 3,5 billion (2014)

 

[BON PLAN]

Like I said, there was no need to upgrade Mirage 2000 at such a high price when a brand new Gripen was available at almost the same price... that my friend smells like Scam..
Apparently only the french were laughing all the way to the bank, but then the rot was stemmed there itself and the fall out as it may seem, cancellation of MMRCA... now.. just the official nail is awaited

No one force indian to deal with DA for Mirage 2000. If you think there is a pb, open a complain in an indian court.

But after saying that 200x , please turn the page and come back to toppic.

 

[BON PLAN]

If the Gripen was so cheap, why did uber wealthy Swiss voters reject the deal ? Smart guy, I am waiting for your answer.
22 Gripen = € 2,55 billion = $ 3,5 billion (2014)

And Dassault after that propose to Switzerland 18 Rafale for 2.2 € billion !

 

[Gabriel92]

Well, Russia has proven track record when it comes to dealing with India. With rance, not so much. The delay in Scorpene, the outrageous $3 billion upgrade of Mirage fleet and the latest horse-trading with Rafale. France doesn't generate much confidence I would say.

If u aren't happy,you can do business with other countries ?

 

[Gabriel92]

Dream Bro.
Next year a new Government in France, Republican style. Some harsh decisions will be taken in the 3 first months to improve labor market, cutting depenses, reducing debt.... Don't worry for us.
Until 5 years we will sell Rafale maybe not to India, but to EAU, Malysia, maybe Belgium and Switzerland..

Juppé seems to be the guy we need.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Excuse me Bro, it's totally BS.

Speaking of Super Mirage 4000 in 2005, is a non sense. Super Mirage 4000 was not fully developped, as DA found no Customer, so the work to make it a true operationnal plane would be so important.... no radar fitted for it, engine at the end of life (M53)....

From the beginning, MMRCA was organised as first a technical choice of 2 planes, and after that a final choice on the more economical. Rafale and EF were the two which fullfield best the 600+ technical exigences. Rafale was declared L1 by a margin of 5 to 20% (depending sources).

AESA radar ? Rafale one was matured enough (because using the proven calculator units, just changing antennae). In this article they told about AESA Captor ready for 2015. We are in 2016 and no AESA Captor ready. mayb 2018.... and with a totally new, without maturity and feed back radar (RBE2 AESA has more that 15 years of improvements behind it).

Assumptions about some Rafale cost. Do you imagine for all the other planes there were no assumptions? All was clear? Sure not.

Don't spew bullshit
You don't know enough about mmrca history

Even the aesa radar was only a prototype which was sent for evaluation

 

[garg_bharat]

And Dassault after that propose to Switzerland 18 Rafale for 2.2 € billion !

What happened after that.I think they will relaunch the vote in 2017.

 

[smestarz]

If the Gripen was so cheap, why did uber wealthy Swiss voters reject the deal ? Smart guy, I am waiting for your answer.
22 Gripen = € 2,55 billion = $ 3,5 billion (2014)

It is really funny, when you put that way. but then here goes,
1. Of the three contenders Eurofighter, Gripen and Rafale, Gripen was the cheapest.
2. Buying same nos of Rafales would be more expensive to buy and to use over the life time, even 12 Rafale would be expensive to buy and use than 22 Gripen planes.
3. The Referendum rejected Gripen, but the people did not say "We want Rafale" did they?

Please try to understand details before you come here with Crap. But then you are french, so its understandable

Some other facts for you
1. The Swiss Government had confirmed plans to acquire 22 single-seater Gripen E fighters at an estimated cost of CHF3.1bn ($3.4bn) for the replacement of the national air force's ageing F-5 Tiger aircraft fleet in August 2012.
2 The national referendum called up by the Swiss Greens and the Liberal Greens parties. 53.4% of the voters reportedly opposed the purchase of jets, while 44% voted in favour of the transaction
3. They argued that the aircraft would cost CHF10bn ($11.3bn) over their lifetime, which could be spent on education, transport or pensions

So you can see that the referendum against Gripen was not pro Rafale, its just against Defence spending, But then these people know that switzerland does not have security concerns, it is safely protected on all sides by Strong European countries which are spending enough.

Since you did put this point, let me ask you, did the Swiss have a referendum to say "We want Rafale instead of Gripens?" I really would be interested to know.
During FIFA World cup 2014, there was arugment in Brazil that whatever they are spending on world cup infrastructure should have been spent on welfare of the citizens of Brazil, and there were protests outside each stadium before the match and it was there till the match ended.

Now, Gripen has sales problem in both Switzerland and Brazil, but then both of the countries are not saying.. "ok lets by Rafales" either.. they are just saying that "we do not need hi tech military hardware thats so expensive" maybe we can sell Tejas to Brazil.

 

[garg_bharat]

The deal is already in the proverbial coffin, just a few nails need to be hammered in.
Su-30 MKI is a big plane, but then has better range, better warload + fuel. In a way it surpasses Rafale in most roles. Rafale is better in terms of avionics, and the cockpit of Su-30 MKI is not one of the best.
Su-30 MKI has not been upgraded since it was produced. Rafale (the less than 120 nos) are already in F-3R tranche to so say, thus the developments have come fast, but now, with less orders on the horizon, the development would become too expensive if there is no potential buyer. Would UAE buy 36 Rafales at that exhorbitant cost? They might go for F-15 SE or maybe F/A-18.. surely USA can give a better price for UAE.

Super Sukhoi capability, a lot of things would be coming like the AESA, ability to carry Brahmos A, also the cockpit is to be upgraded to be something resembling PAKFA (with better data fusion) there is always the Khibiny Pod as self protection jammers at wingtips

But in all honestly, I do expect the IAF to put spanner in the works and try and convince the MoD that Sukhoi upgraded to Super sukhoi will not help the capability of IAF, and that the cost will be too exorbitant ..
When IAF brass is questioned about the cost of upgrade of Mirage 2000 upgrade and what improvement in life and capability it brings, expect IAF to keep mum

IAF pushed Rafale very hard but has realized its limits. Government does ask questions and iaf has to be ready with the answers.

I feel that any plane chosen as mrca will go much beyond 126 number. It makes sense to use this for building local industry.

Su30 may not increase in number if viable mrca appears.

 

[smestarz]

No one force indian to deal with DA for Mirage 2000. If you think there is a pb, open a complain in an indian court.

But after saying that 200x , please turn the page and come back to toppic.

You really do not understand the point that is made, yes?
The last govt which was in power for two terms is more or less now established to be the most corrupt govt India ever had.. There are already a lot of matters in the court about the various scams. Coal scam, 2G scams etc etc. Now there are many experts who did say that the Mirage 2000 upgrade is very very expensive. It was more expensive than the cost of Su-30 MKI, but IAF was hell bent to get the upgrade.. and its no surprise NAK Browne was there, this is incidentally the guy who also lied to Defence ministry that Piltus are cheaper to buyer and the price wont rise.. and also he is the person who gave the wrong figures that were used to calculate the LCC of Rafale and which two members of CNC signed but under written objection.
Now having said that, no sooiner the guy retired he was posted as Ambassador to Norway..

So, based on all these the new govt more or less has an idea that the rot is quite deep in the top brass of IAF too. And the govt has shown the IAF top brass that they are in charge of purchase and not IAF with clear notice that if you feel you cannot serve using the equipment given to you, you are free to leave.

Now if to put Mirage 2000 as a scam will directly involve some officers and hence it will also affect the morale of the air force (these lower officers are expected to be clean and patriotic) so in hindsight, it makes better sense to just ignore Dassault from future deals somewhat conveying "You took 5 billion dollars, make sure it lasts you a life time" Actually Dassault felt that the new govt will be same as old govt, the moment the French offer something, it will be accepted and signed... unfortunately for France and Dassault, you just have been too arrogant and for too long.. I foresee the Russians and Israelis get bigger share of defence market followed by USA, and France... non-existent in Indian defence scene .

 

[garg_bharat]

@smestarz, there is no point discussing corruption specially with foreigners. Military deals are very difficult. The situation becomes even more difficult when Services get influenced by certain product.

India is still an immature democracy where personality cult and greed is rampant in bureaucracy. The change is coming but it has not reached the Services yet.